Hubbard and Children

Gadfly

Crusader
I remember reading Autobiography of a Yogi where Yogananda depicts crying as a child because he was stuck in this tiny body that wouldn't do what he wanted it to do.

I read it too.

And, the key point there is that one is IN A TINY BODY THAT WON'T DO WHAT YOU WANT IT TO DO. THAT is the context of the "thetan". And, nobody is going to change that very defining context.

THAT is the relevant context. THAT is why one is understanding of a child, and treats them with great patience.

My daughter had a baby girl last year and it has been fascinating watching her develop, make connections, and slowly and gradually figure out the world around her. She has her own things to deal with because of that small body. She is learning how to control her muscles. She is learning how to walk (just recently). The IDEA of being a "little thetan" is entirely meaningless to me regarding her. I simply love her, treat her with total patience, NEVER get angry, never raise my voice around her, and on and on and on. My daughter treats her the same way. Any idea of "oh, she is a big thetan" adds NOTHING here. I find it quite irrelevant. She gets frustrated at times, but that is the nature of growing up.

A better understanding to concentrate on is that "thetans" respond FAR BETTER to love, patience and understanding than they do to Scientology idiocy like "you better make it go right you asshole". THAT is what happens when one treats a "thetan" like a BIG BEING in a little body. Total lunacy.

A "spiritual being" in a small and growing body has its OWN UNIQUE problems and difficulties. THAT is what one should focus on. Focusing on some IDEA that he or she is really some BIG THETAN who SHOULDN'T ACT THEIR AGE is pure idiocy.

I am not saying that you disagree, and I am only pointing this out.
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
I think the real problem with Hub and children is that he was self interested and hypocritical. He wrote some nice stuff in Child Dianetics but didn't abide by it. I don't think you can blame his writings (about children) for anything that goes on in the cult re children.

<snip>

I think the real problem with Hubbard and children is that he, and his followers, gave children adult responsibilities and held children to the same expectations one might have of adults.

Whatever reason he, or his followers, gave for this (including that children, even though their bodies are small, are "thetans," in the full sense of what Hubbard meant by the word "thetan") is kinda irrelevant because that FACT caused a lot of children a lot of damage.

I don't think you can blame his writings (about children) for anything that goes on in the cult re children.

It is pretty easy to trace most of the abuse of children that goes on within the cult directly back to Hubbard's writings about children.

It was through his "writings" (and his spoken lectures if we wanna be nit picky) that Hubbard communicated his so-called "philosophy," as well as his policies, directives, advices, and "tech" on the handling of children, which were taken up as "truth" and carried out by his followers.

But of course, those who don't want to blame Hubbard or his writings for what goes on in the cult can just shift the "blame" for all the abuses to his followers who, like a pack of idiots, bought into and carried out his ideas, his directives, his advices, his policies, his "tech" and his directions.

Then those who wish to preserve Hubbard's image as the great philosopher and friend of mankind can view Hubbard as, in effect, saying:

"Who, me? It's not MY fault; all I did was talk and write some stuff. I can't help it if people were stupid enough to actually act on what I said, I was just fooling, just entertaining, doncha know?" -- L.Ron Hubbard
 

Gib

Crusader
I read it too.

And, the key point there is that one is IN A TINY BODY THAT WON'T DO WHAT YOU WANT IT TO DO. THAT is the context of the "thetan". And, nobody is going to change that very defining context.

THAT is the relevant context. THAT is why one is understanding of a child, and treats them with great patience.

My daughter had a baby girl last year and it has been fascinating watching her develop, make connections, and slowly and gradually figure out the world around her. She has her own things to deal with because of that small body. She is learning how to control her muscles. She is learning how to walk (just recently). The IDEA of being a "little thetan" is entirely meaningless to me regarding her. I simply love her, treat her with total patience, NEVER get angry, never raise my voice around her, and on and on and on. My daughter treats her the same way. Any idea of "oh, she is a big thetan" adds NOTHING here. I find it quite irrelevant. She gets frustrated at times, but that is the nature of growing up.

A better understanding to concentrate on is that "thetans" respond FAR BETTER to love, patience and understanding than they do to Scientology idiocy like "you better make it go right you asshole". THAT is what happens when one treats a "thetan" like a BIG BEING in a little body. Total lunacy.

A "spiritual being" in a small and growing body has its OWN UNIQUE problems and difficulties. THAT is what one should focus on. Focusing on some IDEA that he or she is really some BIG THETAN who SHOULDN'T ACT THEIR AGE is pure idiocy.

I am not saying that you disagree, and I am only pointing this out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd2W3oLQLsA
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Having a child disconnect from me has shown me the pitfalls of raising children as though they are thetans in small bodies.

I expected way too much, and gave way too little.

What's interesting to me are the ways that L Ron Hubbard's 'stuff' can slide into your considerations about 'most any fooking thing while you are not paying attenton.

Thetans in little bodies is a theory that allows for children to be neglected, and abused in insidious ways such as putting them into the so-called care of another person.

Expecting adult responsibilities from a child is abuse. It is stealing their childhood.

My 2c on the matter now that I am not inside the Truman Show of Scn/L Ron Hubbard.

phenomanon


Thank you for this honest and heartfelt post.

I wasn't on staff (when my little ones were born) as I'd seen the 'nursery' and knew that was not going to work for me as a Mother, but even the small amount of 'tekky' BS that they got from me as they grew up (added to what they received from their no doubt well intentioned Father) was enough to create the viewpoint that people can just be flicked if they step over the invisible line, which I've now done by leaving the cofs.

Many of us have made silly and unnecessary mistakes with our kids, and I don't know how I could ever have thought it was OK to have children while even slightly involved in that poxy cult and I would certainly do things differently now ... if only I could.

I just hope they don't waste too much of their own lives in ridiculous cultic thinking.



:yes:
 
Thank you for this honest and heartfelt post.

I wasn't on staff (when my little ones were born) as I'd seen the 'nursery' and knew that was not going to work for me as a Mother, but even the small amount of 'tekky' BS that they got from me as they grew up (added to what they received from their no doubt well intentioned Father) was enough to create the viewpoint that people can just be flicked if they step over the invisible line, which I've now done by leaving the cofs.

Many of us have made silly and unnecessary mistakes with our kids, and I don't know how I could ever have thought it was OK to have children while even slightly involved in that poxy cult and I would certainly do things differently now ... if only I could.

I just hope they don't waste too much of their own lives in ridiculous cultic thinking.



:yes:

Boy, I'd say this is one of those <is the glass half empty or half full?> questions / answers.

I would say that I treat(ed) not only my children and my grandchildren, but my dogs and my horses and cats like gods, who can do amazing things.

My wife and I were involved with Scientology when we got together. Her oldest was a Class Vlll at age 16. Our youngest did co auditing at Alan Walter's center in Dallas at age 15.

We always gave our children and now our grandchildren lots of freedom to fully push their own envelopes. In no particular order:

When one of our boys was 12, I took him up a 2,500 foot climb in Yosemite (the Two Sisters).

When his son was six, I was taking our grandson (my son's son) off cornices on Black Diamond Advanced ski slopes.

attachment.php


One year my daughter, a granddaughter about 5 years old, and I were snowed in for a week. We three spent every day of that week on the slopes from opening of the lifts to closing in 60 mile an hour wind and snow..... And we didn't do bunny slopes.

When my daughter was two, my wife and I taught her to ski. As a teen or an adult she is fearless and skis with all her male friends back country expert terrain.

Around 1982, the oldest and the youngest, both got involved with acting. They both got SAG and AFTRA cards, and worked steadily from the get go. The youngest was four. She was expected, as a working actor, to have adult responsibilities. Production companies don't pay kids to have "kid" mentalities. Both have done very well for themselves.

When one of our boys was 13, he worked out how he could use an Amtrak excursion ticket (45 days, no commuting for $600.) to travel 29,000 miles by rail. He did this on all by himself. As he traveled, he wrote articles for our local newspaper. The articles did so well, he was hired by the paper, when he returned to work there daily for the next couple of years. In his travels, he got to meet Graham Clayter (spelling?), the head of Amtrak in Washington, D.C.

My daughter at 15 or 16, rode in the Tevis aka The Western States Trail Ride, the toughest equine endurance race on the planet. It runs from Squaw Valley across the Sierra Nevada Mountains to Auburn, CA. in 24 hours or less. It's 100 miles. . Riders cross through snow, rivers, 100 degree heat, and the dark of night. The race starts at 5 AM with about 250 riders. It ends the next day (in the middle of the night) with about 125 riders. Our daughter came in first in the teen category and 64th overall.

Our kids, with me, have scuba dived, rock climbed, skied, ridden horses, and generally been treated as adults with younger bodies. I don't think it has caused them ANY harm whatsoever.

attachment.php


Our youngest daughter was 12, when she first went with us to China. After college, she was running biz dev (business development) for the largest law firm in Shanghai. The only blonde blue eyed employee on the staff of 300 lawyers, and she was paid better than many.

One of our boys barely made it out of high school, but makes a comfortable six figure income at ebay as an alpha geek.

When our youngest daughter was in 6th grade, I used to play Go with her daily. One day, a friend, who worked with S. Jobs (at that time) at company called Apple sat down with her to play Go. He thought he'd be playing a child. Quickly he became aware that he was in for a real match. In the end, she beat him. He told everybody about that for months.

Another boy has an MA in forensic accounting and does alright.

The girls are fairly successful. One has a masters from Stanford, and works internationally. The other runs her own production company.

I think, especially in these treacherous times, that it is imperative for every sentient parent to raise alpha children. - Kids that have resources and back bone. an independent streak.

and I carry that philosophy down to dog too. He's a pug. He weighs about 18.5 pounds. I've dumped him, accidentally, into the Monterey Bay at 10 O'clock at night, from my kayak, and he's beat me back in to shore.

attachment.php


I've seen what happened when he got attacked by a Rottweiler from out of nowhere -- the Rottweiler lay on the sidewalk with my dog holding the Rottweiler's neck in his jaws.

Raising alpha children or dogs or horses or cats is a good thing. Expect great things, and that is what you get.

On the other hand, expect compliance, and that is also, what you get.

I vote for tough.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Boy, I'd say this is one of those <is the glass half empty or half full?> questions / answers.

I would say that I treat(ed) not only my children and my grandchildren, but my dogs and my horses and cats like gods, who can do amazing things.

My wife and I were involved with Scientology when we got together. Her oldest was a Class Vlll at age 16. Our youngest did co auditing at Alan Walter's center in Dallas at age 15.

We always gave our children and now our grandchildren lots of freedom to fully push their own envelopes. In no particular order:

When one of our boys was 12, I took him up a 2,500 foot climb in Yosemite (the Two Sisters).

When his son was six, I was taking our grandson (my son's son) off cornices on Black Diamond Advanced ski slopes.

attachment.php


One year my daughter, a granddaughter about 5 years old, and I were snowed in for a week. We three spent every day of that week on the slopes from opening of the lifts to closing in 60 mile an hour wind and snow..... And we didn't do bunny slopes.

When my daughter was two, my wife and I taught her to ski. As a teen or an adult she is fearless and skis with all her male friends back country expert terrain.

Around 1982, the oldest and the youngest, both got involved with acting. They both got SAG and AFTRA cards, and worked steadily from the get go. The youngest was four. She was expected, as a working actor, to have adult responsibilities. Production companies don't pay kids to have "kid" mentalities. Both have done very well for themselves.

When one of our boys was 13, he worked out how he could use an Amtrak excursion ticket (45 days, no commuting for $600.) to travel 29,000 miles by rail. He did this on all by himself. As he traveled, he wrote articles for our local newspaper. The articles did so well, he was hired by the paper, when he returned to work there daily for the next couple of years. In his travels, he got to meet Graham Clayter (spelling?), the head of Amtrak in Washington, D.C.

My daughter at 15 or 16, rode in the Tevis aka The Western States Trail Ride, the toughest equine endurance race on the planet. It runs from Squaw Valley across the Sierra Nevada Mountains to Auburn, CA. in 24 hours or less. It's 100 miles. . Riders cross through snow, rivers, 100 degree heat, and the dark of night. The race starts at 5 AM with about 250 riders. It ends the next day (in the middle of the night) with about 125 riders. Our daughter came in first in the teen category and 64th overall.

Our kids, with me, have scuba dived, rock climbed, skied, ridden horses, and generally been treated as adults with younger bodies. I don't think it has caused them ANY harm whatsoever.

attachment.php


Our youngest daughter was 12, when she first went with us to China. After college, she was running biz dev (business development) for the largest law firm in Shanghai. The only blonde blue eyed employee on the staff of 300 lawyers, and she was paid better than many.

One of our boys barely made it out of high school, but makes a comfortable six figure income at ebay as an alpha geek.

When our youngest daughter was in 6th grade, I used to play Go with her daily. One day, a friend, who worked with S. Jobs (at that time) at company called Apple sat down with her to play Go. He thought he'd be playing a child. Quickly he became aware that he was in for a real match. In the end, she beat him. He told everybody about that for months.

Another boy has an MA in forensic accounting and does alright.

The girls are fairly successful. One has a masters from Stanford, and works internationally. The other runs her own production company.

I think, especially in these treacherous times, that it is imperative for every sentient parent to raise alpha children. - Kids that have resources and back bone. an independent streak.

and I carry that philosophy down to dog too. He's a pug. He weighs about 18.5 pounds. I've dumped him, accidentally, into the Monterey Bay at 10 O'clock at night, from my kayak, and he's beat me back in to shore.

attachment.php


I've seen what happened when he got attacked by a Rottweiler from out of nowhere -- the Rottweiler lay on the sidewalk with my dog holding the Rottweiler's neck in his jaws.

Raising alpha children or dogs or horses or cats is a good thing. Expect great things, and that is what you get.

On the other hand, expect compliance, and that is also, what you get.

I vote for tough.

Well, that's great. But for the Scarlett Hannas and Sharone Stainforths and the Purple Raindrops a Scientology upbringing sadly did not work out so well.
 
Well, that's great. But for the Scarlett Hannas and Sharone Stainforths and the Purple Raindrops a Scientology upbringing sadly did not work out so well.

I really wasn't espousing any part of Scientology.

I raised my kids in much the same way that I was raised.

As a farm boy, I was driving a tractor at age three. I barbecued steaks and hamburgers at three. As a kid, I collected milk, eggs, helped butcher cows and deer and hogs and chickens.

When my father was a seven year old, he had huge responsibility running an orchard operation.

Frankly, i couldn't tell you what Hubbard said or didn't say about raising kids.

I can tell you what works for my family is lots of responsibility at an early age. i.e., treating children a adults.

Putting kids in chain lockers wasn't a part of my family's philosophy on raising kids.

But then again, putting children into places they didn't want to be is not good for anyone.

Treating children with respect for their intellect and athletic capabilities, and giving them duties, whereby they actually contribute to the family is a workable way to raise kids.

It sure beats watching TV .
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
I really wasn't espousing any part of Scientology.

I raised my kids in much the same way that I was raised.

As a farm boy, I was driving a tractor at age three. I barbecued steaks and hamburgers at three. As a kid, I collected milk, eggs, helped butcher cows and deer and hogs and chickens.

When my father was a seven year old, he had huge responsibility running an orchard operation.

Frankly, i couldn't tell you what Hubbard said or didn't say about raising kids.

I can tell you what works for my family is lots of responsibility at an early age. i.e., treating children a adults.

Putting kids in chain lockers wasn't a part of my family's philosophy on raising kids.

But then again, putting children into places they didn't want to be is not good for anyone.

Treating children with respect for their intellect and athletic capabilities, and giving them duties, whereby they actually contribute to the family is a workable way to raise kids.

It sure beats watching TV .

Well, I wish you were my dad then. But still I think there are limits to the responsibility kids should have - like the little girl killed flying the aeroplane. I guess she died doing what she loved, and I know adults have crashes as well, and I guess you could say, "What's the difference dying at 7 years old flying a plane as dying at 47?" but somehow it seems to me that there isn't quite that maturity there - that life experience - that something. I don't know.

Anyhow I think you've done a wonderful job with your family. There's no greater gift to another person that I can think of than that. It's a gift to the whole world really.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I know that many of you have some differences of opinion with me about the Hubbardite concepts named in the opening post, but reading over this thread, one thing does become quite evident to me. Namely, that the people on this forum, the people in the critic's venues, the people posting on this thread, are loving and concerned individuals who feel that children should be helped, nurtured, allowed to be children and who want to see any and all cultic neglect and abuse completely stamped out.

IMO, we're never going to see a reformed CofS. Not a really improved one. I don't think it can exist and not be abusive in some way
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Cultic thinking especially of the scientology kind is certainly never going to become 'family friendly' and we all know that at it's essence it completely lacks kindness, respect and genuine caring and children need those things in abundance to truly thrive.

I would love to start over with mine, and ensure that no scientology was allowed anywhere near them, but as things stand they grew up to be intelligent, funny, caring and strong characters and are doing very well in life, and that's fantastic.

:yes:
 
Cultic thinking especially of the scientology kind is certainly never going to become 'family friendly' and we all know that at it's essence it completely lacks kindness, respect and genuine caring and children need those things in abundance to truly thrive.

I would love to start over with mine, and ensure that no scientology was allowed anywhere near them, but as things stand they grew up to be intelligent, funny, caring and strong characters and are doing very well in life, and that's fantastic.

:yes:

Danger is a funny thng.

Some things shout "danger!"

traffic for a small child is dangerous

a steep cliff is dangerous

the Co$, at first glance, doesn't look dangerous, but it is

helping children prepare for life's dangers, by exposing them and educating them to the real dangers is a vital piece to any kid's growing up.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Danger is a funny thng.

Some things shout "danger!"

traffic for a small child is dangerous

a steep cliff is dangerous

the Co$, at first glance, doesn't look dangerous, but it is

helping children prepare for life's dangers, by exposing them and educating them to the real dangers is a vital piece to any kid's growing up.

Maybe so, but I would not ever treat a two year old like an adult when it comes to traffic or steep cliffs. Yes, you educate, you try to teach them what they need to know, but you definitely treat them differently. I don't need to take another adult's hand to cross a busy street, or keep an eye on them to make sure they don't climb the fence and go over the cliff.

They are not small adults, or gods. They are children.
 
Maybe so, but I would not ever treat a two year old like an adult when it comes to traffic or steep cliffs. Yes, you educate, you try to teach them what they need to know, but you definitely treat them differently. I don't need to take another adult's hand to cross a busy street, or keep an eye on them to make sure they don't climb the fence and go over the cliff.

They are not small adults, or gods. They are children.

I basically agree with you, regarding protecting children, but not entirely about your comments regarding adults.

Children learn by copying what the adults around them do.

There are adults walking my streets, who need their hand held, and I don't mean just elder berries. Looking both ways before crossing the street and stopping for pedestrians are so often lacking.

What I'm against is marginalizing little people and / or dogs. I'm talking about mentoring children or animals as to how things work, the dangers, the joys, and getting in practice of mastering abilities. Learning to use your body wisely, with agility, and your mind in the same way is what I'm advocating.

We have bees in hives outside our kitchen window. IF you know how to get along with them, you can harvest the honey, clean up the hive, keep everything working, and never be stung. I did a video last week with my iPhone, in my t shirt and flip flops of the honey harvest. I was right in there. I didn't get stung or even threatened. Learning how to work and / or play in this world requires knowledge of "how" and knowledge of dangers. Learning the ropes requires failing, picking yourself up, and trying again.

There are many adults, who have never been mentored in simple common sense. Witness the nincompoops who send money to Nigerian "bankers" and other obvious scam artists.
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
I really wasn't espousing any part of Scientology.

I raised my kids in much the same way that I was raised.

As a farm boy, I was driving a tractor at age three. I barbecued steaks and hamburgers at three. As a kid, I collected milk, eggs, helped butcher cows and deer and hogs and chickens.

When my father was a seven year old, he had huge responsibility running an orchard operation.

Frankly, i couldn't tell you what Hubbard said or didn't say about raising kids.

I can tell you what works for my family is lots of responsibility at an early age. i.e., treating children a adults.

Putting kids in chain lockers wasn't a part of my family's philosophy on raising kids.

But then again, putting children into places they didn't want to be is not good for anyone.

Treating children with respect for their intellect and athletic capabilities, and giving them duties, whereby they actually contribute to the family is a workable way to raise kids.

It sure beats watching TV .


I think it’s great that you provided all those opportunities for your children, they were fortunate indeed to have parents like you, and you should be rightfully proud of how you have raised them.

But step back for a moment and look at the fact that YOU, the ADULT provided all those opportunities – the skis, the transportation, the horses, the scuba equipment, the travel, the educational opportunities as well as a home with parents and siblings, love, and guidance and support, in order for them to grow (gradually, starting at a very early age) into being able to capably handle adult responsibilities. You¸ the ADULT provided the resources to make all that possible; you the ADULT made the responsible choices to provide them the opportunities and guidance that shaped their lives.

I’m sure the children languishing in the Sea Org nursery, or at the babysitters (perhaps in front of a TV!) for days and weeks while their parents were on staff in scientology, would much rather have been learning to ski, climbing mountains, scuba diving, or galloping bareback through the countryside on a horse they had the responsibility of feeding, washing, brushing and otherwise caring for … except for the ADULT responsibility of paying for the barn, the corral, the hay, grain, veterinary bills, farrier bills, horse trailer, tack, and what not.

I’m sure the 12-year-old girl I knew who was dumped on the streets of Los Angeles (when her mother joined the Sea Org, and this young girl didn’t want to) would have preferred to gather eggs, help with the butchering, drive a tractor, care for and ride horses, travel to China or around the USA on Amtrak, then get a college education at Stanford… if she hadn’t been so preoccupied with the ADULT responsibility of finding basic food and shelter for herself when she was still a child.

No one said or suggested that children should be let alone to do nothing but amuse themselves with pointless activities. No one said or suggested that children should have no responsibilities, or should not be productive, or or should not contribute to the family or to their own growth.

It’s not a perfect world, and sometimes children are thrown into adult life “over their head” and still manage to make it – many of them who survived scientology in this way have told their stories on this forum. Many of those not blessed with the perfect scenario of your life as you describe it still manage to grow into remarkable adults. Still, I believe it is the responsibility of ADULTS, not the children, to help the children grow into and take on (gradually) the responsibilities of adult life.

Oh, and BTW, I know a young man who, as a child, watched lots and lots of TV and who now (without benefit of a film school education) makes a nice six-figure-and-climbing income working in the TV industry… who knew?
 

phenomanon

Canyon
Thank you for this honest and heartfelt post.

I wasn't on staff (when my little ones were born) as I'd seen the 'nursery' and knew that was not going to work for me as a Mother, but even the small amount of 'tekky' BS that they got from me as they grew up (added to what they received from their no doubt well intentioned Father) was enough to create the viewpoint that people can just be flicked if they step over the invisible line, which I've now done by leaving the cofs.

Many of us have made silly and unnecessary mistakes with our kids, and I don't know how I could ever have thought it was OK to have children while even slightly involved in that poxy cult and I would certainly do things differently now ... if only I could.

I just hope they don't waste too much of their own lives in ridiculous cultic thinking.



:yes:

Altho I was a member in good standing for more than 30 years, I never joined the SO, and was labelled as a "non SO Professional Scn", as I was volunteer staff at various places for years.

You don't have to be SO or Staff for Hubbard's ideas to infiltrate your thinking. These ideas slide into your worldview along with the lubricant of a little truth and a big dream of an ideal scene for mankind and planet earth. All you need to be is a Scientologist.

I had the idea that my children were "old souls", and if I were asked about my traetment of them I would have replied that " I was granting them the beingness of an older soul in a new body".

No sense in grieving about it now, after almost 30 years of being disconnected. I was told by my child " my life is happier without you in it". So be it. Don't worry 'bout me, I'll get along. Forget about me, be happy my love.

See ya down the road. What is unresolved this lifetime will be resolved in the next, if there is such.:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

phenomanon
 
I think it’s great that you provided all those opportunities for your children, they were fortunate indeed to have parents like you, and you should be rightfully proud of how you have raised them.

But step back for a moment and look at the fact that YOU, the ADULT provided all those opportunities – the skis, the transportation, the horses, the scuba equipment, the travel, the educational opportunities as well as a home with parents and siblings, love, and guidance and support, in order for them to grow (gradually, starting at a very early age) into being able to capably handle adult responsibilities. You¸ the ADULT provided the resources to make all that possible; you the ADULT made the responsible choices to provide them the opportunities and guidance that shaped their lives.

I’m sure the children languishing in the Sea Org nursery, or at the babysitters (perhaps in front of a TV!) for days and weeks while their parents were on staff in scientology, would much rather have been learning to ski, climbing mountains, scuba diving, or galloping bareback through the countryside on a horse they had the responsibility of feeding, washing, brushing and otherwise caring for … except for the ADULT responsibility of paying for the barn, the corral, the hay, grain, veterinary bills, farrier bills, horse trailer, tack, and what not.

I’m sure the 12-year-old girl I knew who was dumped on the streets of Los Angeles (when her mother joined the Sea Org, and this young girl didn’t want to) would have preferred to gather eggs, help with the butchering, drive a tractor, care for and ride horses, travel to China or around the USA on Amtrak, then get a college education at Stanford… if she hadn’t been so preoccupied with the ADULT responsibility of finding basic food and shelter for herself when she was still a child.

No one said or suggested that children should be let alone to do nothing but amuse themselves with pointless activities. No one said or suggested that children should have no responsibilities, or should not be productive, or or should not contribute to the family or to their own growth.

It’s not a perfect world, and sometimes children are thrown into adult life “over their head” and still manage to make it – many of them who survived scientology in this way have told their stories on this forum. Many of those not blessed with the perfect scenario of your life as you describe it still manage to grow into remarkable adults. Still, I believe it is the responsibility of ADULTS, not the children, to help the children grow into and take on (gradually) the responsibilities of adult life.

Oh, and BTW, I know a young man who, as a child, watched lots and lots of TV and who now (without benefit of a film school education) makes a nice six-figure-and-climbing income working in the TV industry… who knew?

this has helped me crystalize my thinking.

when I say treat kids as adults, I don't mean anything more than being respectful of their
  1. perceptions
  2. ability to think
  3. integrity
  4. abilities
  5. ability to fall down, and pick themselves up

yes, we took our kids to see musical theater, political events, work with us, travel to the far corners of the world, and on adventures that most people never experience. We wanted children with every advantage in life that we could provide for them. We're now doing the same with grandchildren. My parents did that for me. Responsibility, perception, knowledge, and critical thinking being the most valuable commodities.

I absolutely don't mean "things," (like TVs, cars, clothes) but experiences with other cultures, with special skills like tennis, soccer, basketball, baseball, equestrian knowledge, competitive and individual sports and a wide variety of work experience.

Learning how to learn is a valuable skill. Anyone, who has ever learned a topic, say painting a wall, has made plenty of mistakes, learned how to correct them, and persevered on to completion. Those skills are transferrable to learning another skill, no matter how unrelated.

One of our boys has gone from writing for a newspaper to answering 911 emergency calls to being a conductor on trains to being a forensic accountant. His transitions were all pretty smooth. He never had back off on learning new skills, or jumping to a new activity. This same kid (40 something kid) has leukemia, and takes $6K worth of drugs a month to keep it in remission. He has good health insurance from his company. Life isn't a bowl of cherries. He has taken the bumps as they came.

raising kids in specialized bubbles (like Scientology) is not a favor to anyone.

For my wife and myself, our children are / were our most important priority. Even when we were "in," it was obvious that our priorities differed greatly from most scientologists. We got great things from scientology. Once we got everything we came for, and the organization went to the dark side , at least in its relation to us, we left. We didn't try to reform it. We just walked away. Thank you and good bye.

If I don't like what Macy*s is selling, I buy elsewhere. That was essentially what we decided about Scientology. It was no longer a good place to shop.

having never been raised in any religion, it was no big deal for me.

For others, who bought the big lies, I'm sure leaving was / is much more difficult.
 
Altho I was a member in good standing for more than 30 years, I never joined the SO, and was labelled as a "non SO Professional Scn", as I was volunteer staff at various places for years.

You don't have to be SO or Staff for Hubbard's ideas to infiltrate your thinking. These ideas slide into your worldview along with the lubricant of a little truth and a big dream of an ideal scene for mankind and planet earth. All you need to be is a Scientologist.

I had the idea that my children were "old souls", and if I were asked about my traetment of them I would have replied that " I was granting them the beingness of an older soul in a new body".

No sense in grieving about it now, after almost 30 years of being disconnected. I was told by my child " my life is happier without you in it". So be it. Don't worry 'bout me, I'll get along. Forget about me, be happy my love.

See ya down the road. What is unresolved this lifetime will be resolved in the next, if there is such.:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

phenomanon

[video=youtube;zOXtWxhlsUg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOXtWxhlsUg[/video]
 
FWIW:
back somewhere in the mid 70s, a couple, not quite friends of ours, left the husband's 16 yr old boy on their doorstep, after they had sold the house, and moved to Florida to spend a couple hundred thou on becoming Clear OTs.

By the conversation earlier on this thread, they treated him like an adult. "Make it go right. blah blah blah..."

by my definition, they treated him like yesterday's trash

We took him in, no papers signed, no thought by anyone. He stayed with us through his second year in college. I don't recall anyone saying "thank you."
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
FWIW:
back somewhere in the mid 70s, a couple, not quite friends of ours, left the husband's 16 yr old boy on their doorstep, after they had sold the house, and moved to Florida to spend a couple hundred thou on becoming Clear OTs.

By the conversation earlier on this thread, they treated him like an adult. "Make it go right. blah blah blah..."

by my definition, they treated him like yesterday's trash

We took him in, no papers signed, no thought by anyone. He stayed with us through his second year in college. I don't recall anyone saying "thank you."

Jeezzuuss H. Key Riced...Wow, Carmelo...U-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e! How's he doin' today?

Face:)
 
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