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Hubbard Changed His Mind About Xenu?

Paul,

A little reluctant to comment on this because I have no docs, am not an expert in the area, have limited interest in the area, and my credibility has been sufficiently questioned for me to question the value of my commenting here. But because you asked nicely, I will.

There was little more to the technican nature than I mentioned earlier. Is the OT III story, which is in essence scientology's "creation theory" actually necesary or even beneficial technically. What struck me more than this exact technical point was that several highly intelligent people with different backgrounds were discussing it in an unbiased fashion; if there was hope for an organized church, it would require discussions like this evaluation and disections of not only hubbards writings, but placing components into context of truly helping people rather than todays profit motive.

There was discussion of todays scientific evidence disproving components of the creation story, there was discussion of the number of people that didn't buy it or blew off, that some seem to do better if they did not take it litterally. Again, what interested me was that these people were willing to question all aspects of it ... and openly discuss such.

Is this a discussion that happened inside the "church" of scientology with members in good standing? Were they SO?
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Listening to early tapes you can observe how Ron waffled back and forth from the victim viewpoint to the Cause and Responsibility viewpoint. One would hear laughter as incidents were described and the audience was made to understand that the PC had done all of these terrible implants to other beings and to bodies on the opposite flow. Not too serious about serious somatics turning on was LRH. Rolling with the flow.

Slowly the lectures changed and began to include stories of the saboteurs and secret counter-intentions. He had to know that his congregation was having some mental dissonance regarding abandoning the idea of total responsibility for one's case. I'm sure Ron knew this was his own case he was dramatizing. He had thought in 1952 that different beings presented themselves into this universe at different times. Now all of a sudden we all had a similar Inc I, and we all had an Inc II. :confused2: He probably knew better. But his mock up of being the Commodore with the Sea Org needed that background story.

Back in the 80s David Mayo remarked that OT III had become an embarrassment for the C of S that they didn't know what to do with. From what I saw at the AAC he included some advanced level VII techniques to be used in level III solo sessions. Buttons to check and handlings that dealt with BTs not blowing on the INC II Xenu story.
While in Santa Barbara there was a young man, Steve Ayres, on OT III. He was part of the original clique who set up housing for those leaving the C of S with David and Julie. He was with DeDe Reisdorf and Ken Urquhart and John Nelson and Larry Little. From something he said while getting himself coffee in the kitchen when his folders were brought to him I got the impression that he was privy to using NOTS solutions to OT III glitches coming up in his session.

In my last D of P with David he said I'd be doing OT III as my next step when I returned and then NOTS where he 'knew' my complaint would be finally handled. He told me that my "problem was with another person." (not incarnate) I knew that, but doing III did not indicate at all. :no: In what he said I got the distinct impression that once paying my dues to get on OT III so as not to violate group expectations, he could C/S me using what he knew would bite. Everyone's jobs there at the AAC were dependent on the new arrivals who were still demanding a standard bridge. He would not let these people down. But believe you me, once you got to 'ownership processing' he did not consider it a violation to give you the indications you needed. Nobody need know you weren't sticking to the Galactic Confederation 'script' carved in granite. This attitude probably contributed to there being no alliance with CBR's group in Europe.
 
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Ho Tai

Patron Meritorious
I'm so embarrassed

I was SO wanting to do OTIII. I figured I had enough money to get there, and if that was all I got, I would be satisfied. Shit happened and now I'm out. Now that I know what OTIII really is, I cannot fathom how I would have reacted upon reading the materials. Thank (God, Allah, Xenu, whatever) that I got out before I reached that point. It would have been the greatest conflict I had ever experienced . I can't see how I could have accepted that stuff, and yet my whole Scn experience was accepting stuff that in retrospect I should have been aware enough to reject. (Oh yeah, I had enough on account to get that far and more, but I got it back!)
 

LongTimeGone

Silver Meritorious Patron
I knew a lot of staff who were desperate to do OTIII - I knew some who were keeping fit so that they would be ready for the stupendous effort required to tackle the horrors of the level.

At the time I did it, no one spoke of it and there was no WWW as we know it, so it was completely new to me. Obviously Hubbard was right; mystery sticks a Thetan.

I remember reading it and... Reading it again. I don't remember walking home that night.

I don't know if that was because I was overwhelmed by the "amazing idea" or the "crazy idea". I vaguely remember thinking that it could explain Schizophrenia.

Crazy idea is now strongly cemented in my mind (and brain).

LTG
 
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Live and let live, I say!

OT III is run on bts, NOT on self. After completion, one has the option of running it on self IF one feels the need. It is not actually a part of the process.


Mark A. Baker

Poor little BT's. Why can't everybody just leave them alone to live (clustered or not) in peace? :p
 

Veda

Sponsor
Davis and I discussed an assertion that Marty Rathbun had made to me about the O.T. III creation story—the galactic revelations that Haggis had deemed “madness.” While Hubbard was in exile, Rathbun told me, he wrote a memo suggesting an experiment in which ascending Scientologists skipped the O.T. III level. Miscavige shelved the idea, Rathbun told me.​

Does anyone know if Marty Rathbun ever publicly mentioned this memo prior to the uncomfortable moment of being asked about Xenu by New Yorker magazine's Lawrence Wright?

Marty is, if he's anything, "on Source" tech-wise and Bridge-wise, and proud of it. Does Marty advocate cancelling OT 3? - and without "Incident II" there would be no OT 3 - and is there any mention in his Blog, or any other writings, of his so advocating?

Has there been any discussion on Marty's Blog about this matter?

Are there any regular readers of Marty's Blog who know? I don't want to search for it.
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
oatee upgaphugged

In this recent New Yorker article about Paul Haggis at http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_wright?currentPage=all, the author says:
Davis and I discussed an assertion that Marty Rathbun had made to me about the O.T. III creation story—the galactic revelations that Haggis had deemed “madness.” While Hubbard was in exile, Rathbun told me, he wrote a memo suggesting an experiment in which ascending Scientologists skipped the O.T. III level. Miscavige shelved the idea, Rathbun told me.​
Assuming this to be true, i.e. that Hubbard did in fact make such a "suggestion," what does it imply? To me, it seems to mean that Hubbard had had second thoughts about his Xenu story and wanted to pilot out dropping solo OT3 entirely. Why else drop it? It was still a money-spinner, and there was the allure and mystique and fame of the level.

I suppose that if you spend a hundred hours in solo auditing getting rid of all those nasty BTs, that would translate to several extra intensives of expensive dual auditing with a NOTs auditor getting rid of those same BTs. So maybe there would be more money in removing this "cheap" solo auditing level.

I doubt if money was the only motivation, though.

Ideas?

Paul

As I see it, oatee III is upgaphugged from a number of angles. First, it is a massive evaluation. Second, in the event that it is valid, as per Scientological doctrine and basics, others with bits of attention stuck on you would not be nearly as important as where you have your attention scattered about. Third, considering Ron was doing lots of "pinks and greys" at the time, i.e., uppers and downers, oatee III was as a result of his drug case, i.e., "coke bugs". This is a common manifestation of someone on a long drug binge or drinking binge, they imagine that bugs are crawling all over their skin and feel them. There is a great scene from "A Scanner Darkley" with that manifstation.

So what about the rest of the old oatee levels? The eepees of the old oatee levels as stated on the old bridge chart of the early 70's were amazing, and there were folks who actually went thru the levels and attested, so they had to be for real, right? No, the attestations were more a matter of self delusion and peer pressure. However, I'm sure there were problems with those who were more honest who did these levels and never got the stated eepees. Enter the oatee III/beetee chasing/conversion of the entire upper bridge to beetee chasing, etc. It is a better device for keeping people on an endless treadmill. If they attest, what are they attesting to? They are not claiming any real oatee abilities, they attest "Wow! My space feels so clean!" and other horseshitistic sayings. In otherwords, the upper bridge as it stands today seems to me to be at the suggestion of the lawyers.

Pete
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Paul,

A little reluctant to comment on this because I have no docs, am not an expert in the area, have limited interest in the area, and my credibility has been sufficiently questioned for me to question the value of my commenting here. But because you asked nicely, I will.

There was little more to the technican nature than I mentioned earlier. Is the OT III story, which is in essence scientology's "creation theory" actually necesary or even beneficial technically. What struck me more than this exact technical point was that several highly intelligent people with different backgrounds were discussing it in an unbiased fashion; if there was hope for an organized church, it would require discussions like this evaluation and disections of not only hubbards writings, but placing components into context of truly helping people rather than todays profit motive.

There was discussion of todays scientific evidence disproving components of the creation story, there was discussion of the number of people that didn't buy it or blew off, that some seem to do better if they did not take it litterally. Again, what interested me was that these people were willing to question all aspects of it ... and openly discuss such.

Thanks Mike. My interest was in discovering any other evidence of Hubbard's shift of position. In other words, Marty mentions an advice from Hubbard. Did you read this advice? Did you hear of anyone else who read it while in the church?

I'm still not sure if these people doing the discussion you mention were in the CofS at the time, or out of it. But that is a different topic.

Paul
 

Mystic

Crusader
Is a bit of a giggle to think that the hubbard thing could "change" its mind. This guy was but a shade reflection, a "tulpa" in Tibetan, a relay entity with not only no soul, but no mind of its own. He was all just a spokeshole for the entities who conjured him. So "change his mind", naw. The next being would just come through for a while.
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yep

I can't find any reference for it but I remember reading a few years ago that when Tom Cruise had read OTIII for the first time he had a breakdown and left (sometime in the early ninties I think). In which he subsequently had to be recovered and talked back into the fold.

I don't know if there is any truth to it but maybe someone else remembers reading about that also.

Yep, I remember reading this too - can't recall where. Wasn't this just before he fired his long time partner and hired his scno sister to replace her - and then his career did a long down hill slide?

Kind of makes ya wonder, huh . . . Quick road to nowhere/xenu.

Now how did they convince him to come back - how did they make this nonsense seem like something rational ? Who auditted him back in - Marty???

Whoa. :deadhorse:

Gees, the secrets that could be told . . .
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Interesting. One one hand there is the consideration of Marty Rathbun as a reliable source of information about LRH - a man he never even met.

And on the other hand is the question of did LRH - who, uh, was of questionable mental health all of his adult life and a known drug abuser and heavy drinker ( not to mention teller of tall tales) change his mind about something.

Is this not a funny thread?
 
My advice is...

Aw Helen, just make pets outta them! :) I think they just wanna cuddle, belong and be acknowledged like everybody else! :yes:

Think Spiritual Teammates! (I like playmates better!) :D (Love you Alan, wherever you are!) :happydance:
 
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