Vinaire
Sponsor
Maybe you should have a LOOK at that sometime during an idenics session.
Mark A. Baker
Nah! I have to maintain a bank till I get to the end of my search...
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I had a glimpse of R6 Bank
- Thread starter Vinaire
- Start date
Nah! I have to maintain a bank till I get to the end of my search...
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Nah! I have to maintain a bank till I get to the end of my search...
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Never fear, you are doing a fine job!
Mark A. Baker
Vinaire
Sponsor
Never fear, you are doing a fine job!
Mark A. Baker
I know. I have all of you guys united...
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Vinaire
Sponsor
Sweetness, I'm here, keeping an eye on this
Vin, did you know you are married to an angel? Give her a big hug for us
I have a full plate for the moment, and since posts do take some thought and time if one is to be succinct and helpful, I've had to pause while I deal with my other stuff.
Rog
My wife loves all of you.
But she loves me too.
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Vinaire
Sponsor
Vinaire
Sponsor
I am coming to think that it is the indescribable observer observing itself and postulating about itself that creates the game of this universe. So, God plays an important role and so does the individual. Maybe, God is the “identification” end and individuals are the “differentiation” end of some kind of an IDENTITY SCALE.
It all started with the question, “Who am I?” and out of that have come out all kind of identities attached to both the OBSERVER and the OBSERVED, and a separation among these identities have come about as the game has proceeded. Roles get reversed back and forth between the OBSERVER and the OBSERVED and randomity keeps on getting added making the game more varied.
Just like entropy, it appears to have just one direction... the direction of increasing variations and complexity. Can this direction be reversed?
Looking, perceiving, experiencing, sensing, appreciating, tasting etc., are different activities created for this game. Some increase this “entropy;” but others may decrease it. Actually anything that brings about understanding in the direction of simplicity will serve to decrease this “entropy.” But, is that always desirable?
There are games within games within games in the direction of greater complexity. Resolutions of such games layer by layer may lead back to simplicity. I think it is a pendulum that moves toward complexity, then at some point it reverses its direction and starts moving toward simplicity, back again toward complexity… back and forth.
Mystic Christianity swung more and more toward moral Christianity, and maybe it will start swinging back to mystic Christianity again. I sometimes wonder that in spite of its different variations what really makes Christianity what it truly is. What are the core beliefs of Christianity, which then get so crudely flaunted? What is the God of Christianity in its most simplified form?
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It all started with the question, “Who am I?” and out of that have come out all kind of identities attached to both the OBSERVER and the OBSERVED, and a separation among these identities have come about as the game has proceeded. Roles get reversed back and forth between the OBSERVER and the OBSERVED and randomity keeps on getting added making the game more varied.
Just like entropy, it appears to have just one direction... the direction of increasing variations and complexity. Can this direction be reversed?
Looking, perceiving, experiencing, sensing, appreciating, tasting etc., are different activities created for this game. Some increase this “entropy;” but others may decrease it. Actually anything that brings about understanding in the direction of simplicity will serve to decrease this “entropy.” But, is that always desirable?
There are games within games within games in the direction of greater complexity. Resolutions of such games layer by layer may lead back to simplicity. I think it is a pendulum that moves toward complexity, then at some point it reverses its direction and starts moving toward simplicity, back again toward complexity… back and forth.
Mystic Christianity swung more and more toward moral Christianity, and maybe it will start swinging back to mystic Christianity again. I sometimes wonder that in spite of its different variations what really makes Christianity what it truly is. What are the core beliefs of Christianity, which then get so crudely flaunted? What is the God of Christianity in its most simplified form?
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Vinaire
Sponsor
It seems that creation moves the game in the direction of increasing complexity. Unbridled creation would be like cancer.
What will move the game back in the direction of decreasing complexity and increasing simplicity but more powerful type? Will that be new creations of a different kind based on greater understanding, which would dissolve the cancerous aspect of earlier unbridled creations?
Ah! we need more and more refined creations that dissolve earlier cruder creations.
What will be the more refined form of Christianity that would dissolve the existing cruder and harmful forms of Christianity?
Oh! I am ruminating again... darn...
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What will move the game back in the direction of decreasing complexity and increasing simplicity but more powerful type? Will that be new creations of a different kind based on greater understanding, which would dissolve the cancerous aspect of earlier unbridled creations?
Ah! we need more and more refined creations that dissolve earlier cruder creations.
What will be the more refined form of Christianity that would dissolve the existing cruder and harmful forms of Christianity?
Oh! I am ruminating again... darn...
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SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Vinaire
Sponsor
ABBA=DADDY!
God is the view held of one's "higher" self.
The viewed and the viewer are ultimately one.
Roger and I are different forms of the same reality, and so is Zinj.
And so is SweetnessandLight, and Nomad!
Thanks for the lovely discussion.
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spbill
Patron with Honors
I think if one becomes aware of the whole time span the direction could be transcended. It is only because we move our attention forward all the time that the "direction" seems to be an issue.
My position is that it is always better to know than to not know.
Bill
spbill
Patron with Honors
God is the view held of one's "higher" self.
The viewed and the viewer are ultimately one.
Not sure I'm prepared to agree with that one yet. Sounds like some kind of acid trip cognition.
Roger and I are different forms of the same reality, and so is Zinj.
And so is SweetnessandLight, and Nomad!
Thanks for the lovely discussion.
Bill
Vinaire
Sponsor
Not sure I'm prepared to agree with that one yet. Sounds like some kind of acid trip cognition.
Bill
At least for me this discussion has rounded up nicely. The Christians think what they think, and that is fine with me.
If a Christian comes to me and says, "You are wrong because you don't believe in my God," I'll know that his concept of God has definitely helped him, and I'll say, "OK, tell me about your God."
I shall give him my attention and hear him out.
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
As far as I'm concerned that is SOOOO not worth the trouble! It would be a complete waste of time unless he's paying for a session. I don't typically charge for sessions, but there it's warranted, cash up front and top dollar too!
Most of the christians I've encountered simply haven't got a clue about the sources of their own religious dogma.
However, I've also got evangelical christians in the family, including one by marriage who is a Baptist minister. So my attitude is partly influenced as a result of past experience.
Mark A. Baker
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Guess What?
That's very nice of you Vinaire! I am sorry to learn that Christian Missionaries seem to be a disruptive force in India, rather than a healing force. The ugly american syndrome seems to apply wherever we go, even without the religious conversion overlay...Too bad, something many of us in my community are working on rectifying by educating ourselves and each other in multiculturalism and diversity. It's a very pro-survival activity!
There are so many different kinds and flavors of Christians, we don't all agree on everything, and we don't all practice our Spirituality in the same way. I am not really into Christian apologetics, others have covered that area very well, C.S. Lewis for one...read "Surprised By Joy". So just a gentle warning Vin, not to fall into the trap of tarring us all with the same brush after a bad encounter with a rabid Christian... We have them here, too! I call them Bible-thumpers, Nomad called them fundies.
Thank you everyone for the very insightful discussion on this thread and elsewhere. I hope it has given Vinnie a little more light on Christian attitudes, or has given him a little more tolerance and patience to put up with those pesky, insensitive Missionaries that may be bothering him from time to time...
Vin, you can also say to them, I have some good friends who are Christians that I have had deep discussions with, and I have come to the awareness that we are not all that different. Christians can relate to being brothers and sisters.
I do want you to be aware of this one cognition Vinnie, that I am a Christian Missionary. I have been active as one on this thread and on the Oh God thread, and elsewhere on the board. I am that wherever I go and whatever I do, with whoever I am with, as part of putting into practice my Spiritual principles. Am I pushing my concept of religious truth onto you or anybody else here? Have I offended you, put down your cultural history or belittled or invalidated your beliefs, practices or experiences? Tell me truthfully, because if I have, then I need to correct something in my Christian practice.
For many, if not most Christian practitioners, we are taught to "walk our talk" wherever we go, to live our values, as we are ambassadors for Christ. To me, in my tradition, that does not mean prosletizing, or trying to convince anyone that they and their beliefs and experiences of Spirit are wrong, which I think is an overt against them, but that we are to be a living example, to teach by example, to lead by example, to heal by example. To be "wayshowers" as Christ Jesus (my rabbi, my teacher) was for us, for living a more Spiritual life, for getting closer to God, for experiencing the Kingdom of Heaven within us. (All of us, it's not exclusive!)
All Christians worth their salt are missionaries, Vin. It's what taught and expected of us as part of the practice. Some obviously do it more gently and appropriately than others. The next time you are listening to some boring person tell you about their God, try to remember this, that their motivation is that they care about you and want to help, and that they are acting in accord with the brightest light that they see by, even if it is being expressed in uncaring and unhelpful judgemental ways! Ironic, isn't it? Perhaps this will help to give you a little more patience and tolerance with them, and to come away from the encounter with a win-win feeling. I hope so. You can teach them tolerence Vin, and teach them how to interact in kinder and more appropriate ways, just by your responses to them.
Thank you very much everybody for the good thought-provoking discussion. Vin, I totally agree with your perception that we are all parts of the same whole, I would say, that we are all creative ideas in the Mind of God (Bill, I've never done acid in my life! )and I will always enjoy talking with you, my Brother!
Namaste, everyone! That which is Divine in me recognizes and honors that which is Divine in you!
That's very nice of you Vinaire! I am sorry to learn that Christian Missionaries seem to be a disruptive force in India, rather than a healing force. The ugly american syndrome seems to apply wherever we go, even without the religious conversion overlay...Too bad, something many of us in my community are working on rectifying by educating ourselves and each other in multiculturalism and diversity. It's a very pro-survival activity!
There are so many different kinds and flavors of Christians, we don't all agree on everything, and we don't all practice our Spirituality in the same way. I am not really into Christian apologetics, others have covered that area very well, C.S. Lewis for one...read "Surprised By Joy". So just a gentle warning Vin, not to fall into the trap of tarring us all with the same brush after a bad encounter with a rabid Christian...
We have them here, too! I call them Bible-thumpers, Nomad called them fundies.Thank you everyone for the very insightful discussion on this thread and elsewhere. I hope it has given Vinnie a little more light on Christian attitudes, or has given him a little more tolerance and patience to put up with those pesky, insensitive Missionaries that may be bothering him from time to time...
Vin, you can also say to them, I have some good friends who are Christians that I have had deep discussions with, and I have come to the awareness that we are not all that different. Christians can relate to being brothers and sisters.
I do want you to be aware of this one cognition Vinnie, that I am a Christian Missionary. I have been active as one on this thread and on the Oh God thread, and elsewhere on the board. I am that wherever I go and whatever I do, with whoever I am with, as part of putting into practice my Spiritual principles. Am I pushing my concept of religious truth onto you or anybody else here? Have I offended you, put down your cultural history or belittled or invalidated your beliefs, practices or experiences? Tell me truthfully, because if I have, then I need to correct something in my Christian practice.
For many, if not most Christian practitioners, we are taught to "walk our talk" wherever we go, to live our values, as we are ambassadors for Christ. To me, in my tradition, that does not mean prosletizing, or trying to convince anyone that they and their beliefs and experiences of Spirit are wrong, which I think is an overt against them, but that we are to be a living example, to teach by example, to lead by example, to heal by example. To be "wayshowers" as Christ Jesus (my rabbi, my teacher) was for us, for living a more Spiritual life, for getting closer to God, for experiencing the Kingdom of Heaven within us. (All of us, it's not exclusive!)
All Christians worth their salt are missionaries, Vin. It's what taught and expected of us as part of the practice. Some obviously do it more gently and appropriately than others. The next time you are listening to some boring person tell you about their God, try to remember this, that their motivation is that they care about you and want to help, and that they are acting in accord with the brightest light that they see by, even if it is being expressed in uncaring and unhelpful judgemental ways! Ironic, isn't it? Perhaps this will help to give you a little more patience and tolerance with them, and to come away from the encounter with a win-win feeling. I hope so. You can teach them tolerence Vin, and teach them how to interact in kinder and more appropriate ways, just by your responses to them.
Thank you very much everybody for the good thought-provoking discussion. Vin, I totally agree with your perception that we are all parts of the same whole, I would say, that we are all creative ideas in the Mind of God (Bill, I've never done acid in my life!
)and I will always enjoy talking with you, my Brother! Namaste, everyone! That which is Divine in me recognizes and honors that which is Divine in you!
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SweetnessandLight
Crusader
Mark, remember that I LOVE Kabbalah, too! We are not all ignorant of our ancestry...
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Mark, remember that I LOVE Kabbalah, too! We are not all ignorant of our ancestry...
No charge to you.
Mark A. Baker
Vinaire
Sponsor
As far as I'm concerned that is SOOOO not worth the trouble! It would be a complete waste of time unless he's paying for a session. I don't typically charge for sessions, but there it's warranted, cash up front and top dollar too!
Most of the christians I've encountered simply haven't got a clue about the sources of their own religious dogma.
However, I've also got evangelical christians in the family, including one by marriage who is a Baptist minister. So my attitude is partly influenced as a result of past experience.
Mark A. Baker
Praise the Lord!
I liked the Christianity in the movie "Coming to America."
.
Vinaire
Sponsor
That's very nice of you Vinaire! I am sorry to learn that Christian Missionaries seem to be a disruptive force in India, rather than a healing force. The ugly american syndrome seems to apply wherever we go, even without the religious conversion overlay...Too bad, something many of us in my community are working on rectifying by educating ourselves and each other in multiculturalism and diversity. It's a very pro-survival activity!
There are so many different kinds and flavors of Christians, we don't all agree on everything, and we don't all practice our Spirituality in the same way. I am not really into Christian apologetics, others have covered that area very well, C.S. Lewis for one...read "Surprised By Joy". So just a gentle warning Vin, not to fall into the trap of tarring us all with the same brush after a bad encounter with a rabid Christian...
Thank you everyone for the very insightful discussion on this thread and elsewhere. I hope it has given Vinnie a little more light on Chrisitan attitudes, or has given him a little more tolerance and patience to put up with those pesky, insensitive Missionaries that may be bothering him from time to time...
Vin, you can also say to them, I have some good friends who are Christians that I have had deep discussions with, and I have come to the awareness that we are not all that different. Christians can relate to being brothers and sisters.
I do want you to be aware of this one cognition Vinnie, that I am a Christian Missionary. I have been active as one on this thread and on the Oh God thread, and elsewhere on the board. I am that wherever I go and whatever I do, with whoever I am with, as part of putting into practice my Spiritual principles. Am I pushing my concept of religious truth onto you or anybody else here? Have I offended you, put down your cultural history or belittled or invalidated your beliefs, practices or experiences? Tell me truthfully, because if I have, then I need to correct something in my Christian practice.
For many, if not most Christian practitioners, we are taught to "walk our talk" wherever we go, to live our values, as we are ambassadors for Christ. To me, in my tradition, that does not mean prosletizing, or trying to convince anyone that they and their beliefs and experiences of Spirit are wrong, which I think is an overt against them, but that we are to be a living example, to teach by example, to lead by example, to heal by example. To be "wayshowers" as Christ Jesus (my rabbi, my teacher) was for us, for living a more Spiritual life, for getting closer to God, for experiencing the Kingdom of Heaven within us. (All of us, it's not exclusive!)
All Christians worth their salt are missionaries, Vin. It's what taught and expected of us as part of the practice. Some obviously do it more gently and appropriately than others. The next time you are listening to some boring person tell you about their God, try to remember this, that their motivation is that they care about you and want to help, and that they are acting in accord with the brightest light that they see by, even if it is being expressed in uncaring and unhelpful judgemental ways! Ironic, isn't it? Perhaps this will help to give you a little more patience and tolerance with them, and to come away from the encounter with a win-win feeling. I hope so. You can teach them tolerence Vin, and teach them how to interact in kinder and more appropriate ways, just by your responses to them.
Thank you very much everybody for the good thought-provoking discussion. Vin, I totally agree with your perception that we are all parts of the same whole, I would say, that we are all creative ideas in the Mind of God (Bill, I've never done acid in my life!
Namaste, everyone! That which is Divine in me recognizes and honors that which is Divine in you!
Thank you. You are sweet and tolerant. I have no problem with that.
Even in India, I have met Christians like you. On individual basis I have no problem with Christians.
But when it comes to orgainized Christianity... one is dealing with politics rather than with a religion. Vatican is an example. I definitely have a problem with an organized effort to put Hinduism down and promote Christianity as superior.
India needs help but she doesn't need to be looked down upon. So much can be accomplished if people work together.
The black and white thinking, "My beliefs are right, and you don't believe like we do, so you are wrong," is so immaturish and loathsome. I don't think a person who thinks like that can be helpful to others spiritually no matter how well-intentioned he might be. I may just as well treat such a person as an Idenics client.
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