I had a glimpse of R6 Bank

[Vinaire]

Yes, that's not your job. That job belongs to others.


Mark A. Baker

Thanks for the advice.

.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Thanks for the advice.

.

You're welcome. Free "advice" is a specialty here on ESMB. Plenty of purveyors.


Mark A. Baker

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Taking a good look at myself...

You're welcome. Free "advice" is a specialty here on ESMB. Plenty of purveyors.
Mark A. Baker

Ain't that the truth, and I will accept ownership of doing it myself. At least I am mostly doing it via pms, when someone has created an opening by asking for it!

Probably wisest not to go there, ever, but sometimes, you just want to hold up a mirror for people to take a good look in, it seems the kindest thing to do for them! And often we can benefit from someone else's personal experience and education. I know I sure have!

Vinnie, I personally think you bailed on that last thread too early. People have a way of talking things out, or arguing things out, and eventually, working things out to either agree or agree to disagree with one another. Much good can be learned in the process. Even when there is great disagreement or contention of viewpoints or ideologies.

If you can just hold the space and allow the process to proceed, sometimes very useful/helpful ideas come to the surface in doing so. Divergent thinking. But then, I've chaired some VERY contentious meetings, and I'm used to holding space while conflict is being harmonized, so maybe I have a different reality on this than you do. I do wish the conversation would have continued at least a bit longer, and given other voices a chance to speak to the issues at hand.

Yes, there is a lot of insanity and cruelty in the world, and as spiritual brothers and sisters sharing space we need to handle it as wisely as we can, but it's bogus to blame it on R6 "implanting" or alien space agent psych wars, demons, spooks or anything beyond ourselves. It's human nature to "act out", for people who are not yet aware of their true existence as spiritual beings or the real interconnectedness of us all, and who are not yet taking responsibility for themselves as such. Nothing and nobody causes it but ourselves, and we are the ones to resolve it. Anything else is just an excuse, and evading being responsible for our own humanity.

You seem to be calmer in your latter posts, I hope you are feeling a bit better now about what was clearly a bad experience for you.

I think we should not censure ourselves from discussing religion, sex or politics, or any other topic, just that we do so in a respectful manner to those with whom we disagree. Freedom of expression, as great as it is and as much as we love it, also means freedom to be hateful to one another, and it's up to each one of us us to choose in each moment how we manage our own thoughts, emotions and communications with each other, according to our own light, our own values and ethics.

Namaste, Brother Vinaire!

 

[Zinjifar]

I try to avoid advice, but, when I slip, it *is* free

Zinj

 

[knn]

I try to avoid advice, but, when I slip, it *is* free

Because noone would pay for your slips voluntarily?

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Trying to stop visualizing Zinji wearing a slip!

 

[Vinaire]

Ain't that the truth, and I will accept ownership of doing it myself. At least I am mostly doing it via pms, when someone has created an opening by asking for it!

Probably wisest not to go there, ever, but sometimes, you just want to hold up a mirror for people to take a good look in, it seems the kindest thing to do for them! And often we can benefit from someone else's personal experience and education. I know I sure have!

Vinnie, I personally think you bailed on that last thread too early. People have a way of talking things out, or arguing things out, and eventually, working things out to either agree or agree to disagree with one another. Much good can be learned in the process. Even when there is great disagreement or contention of viewpoints or ideologies.

If you can just hold the space and allow the process to proceed, sometimes very useful/helpful ideas come to the surface in doing so. Divergent thinking. But then, I've chaired some VERY contentious meetings, and I'm used to holding space while conflict is being harmonized, so maybe I have a different reality on this than you do. I do wish the conversation would have continued at least a bit longer, and given other voices a chance to speak to the issues at hand.

Yes, there is a lot of insanity and cruelty in the world, and as spiritual brothers and sisters sharing space we need to handle it as wisely as we can, but it's bogus to blame it on R6 "implanting" or alien space agent psych wars, demons, spooks or anything beyond ourselves. It's human nature to "act out", for people who are not yet aware of their true existence as spiritual beings or the real interconnectedness of us all, and who are not yet taking responsibility for themselves as such. Nothing and nobody causes it but ourselves, and we are the ones to resolve it. Anything else is just an excuse, and evading being responsible for our own humanity.

You seem to be calmer in your latter posts, I hope you are feeling a bit better now about what was clearly a bad experience for you.

I think we should not censure ourselves from discussing religion, sex or politics, or any other topic, just that we do so in a respectful manner to those with whom we disagree. Freedom of expression, as great as it is and as much as we love it, also means freedom to be hateful to one another, and it's up to each one of us us to choose in each moment how we manage our own thoughts, emotions and communications with each other, according to our own light, our own values and ethics.

Namaste, Brother Vinaire!

Hi Sister,

I like it when a person simply present one’s experience and viewpoint freely for others to consider, without directing it as an advice at somebody specific.

I try to catch myself when I find myself giving advice. I generally present my viewpoint of how I look at something. It is not meant as an advice to anybody. If somebody disagrees with my viewpoint, and tells me that I am wrong, then I would rather not get into an argument. I’ll just present my viewpoint and that’s it. After that I am outta there.

Other’s disagreeing with me does make me look from different viewpoints, and this helps me simplify my viewpoint further if the other person presents a good reason to disagree. But if the other person is simply arguing without presenting any good reason, then it is better to bail out from there.

I think it was time for me to bail out on the last thread. It didn’t take me long to run into the same brick wall that I have run into earlier with Christians. It was Genesis 1:1 and the mention of God that did it again. Once again I was faced with blind or circular faith with no accompanying reason. But those exchanges did help me clarify my own viewpoint, and when that was done, I was out of there.

I am not here to convince anybody of my viewpoint. I am here to simply participate in exchanges that help me clarify my own viewpoint better. That may be selfish on my part. If others simplify their viewpoints in exchanges with me, then so much the better.

If needed, I can always start a “BIBLE II” thread, but right now I want to get through TROM.

I was not taking “R6” seriously because I have no reality on that subject. I kind of equated “R6” with the glimpse I had of a deeply stuck viewpoint under the guise of faith. I have seen so much evil come from that stuck viewpoint on God, that it is mind boggling. Some of these people have no reality outside of their narrow confines. They need to visit other cultures to get better perspective.

But it is their karma. Look what is happening to all those great colonial powers. All those Indian and Pakistani ghettos that you see in England are probably made up of reincarnated Brits who died in British India.

I hope I am not being too disrespectful… I better stop here.

Namaste, sister!

.

 

[Zinjifar]

Trying to stop visualizing Zinji wearing a slip!

How bout commando?

Zinj

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Dear Brother Vinaire

Thank you Vinnie, for your thoughtful response to my post.

It is clear to me that I need to go back and restudy my non-violent communication stuff if I am going to be talking a lot on this board!

I spent a very exhausting week and a half slaving over a hot (literally) community, and one of my refuges is to get on this board and have some intelligent and insightful conversation with lovely folks, also to get a few chuckles in, and keep tabs on current COS follies.

I was really looking forward to continuing the conversation on the Hindu looks at the Bible thread. Also, I was very honored that you chose some writing of mine to start it off with! Thank you for that, Brother Vinaire!

It was a very unpleasant surprise to me to find that you had abruptly shut it down, due to misemotion or miscommunication. I didn't even get to slide a word in edgewise about Christian zenophobia! Drat! For the record I am a mostly Celtic tribal person and as anti-colonial/imperial as one can get. Let me just re-state that I wish you hadn't shut the thread down as quickly or abruptly as you did, but I know you were acting in accord with what you felt was best at the time. At some point in the future, when I am better rested and have more time, I may start a thread on "An Interfaith look at the Bible". I think it is a very worthwhile topic.

Sometimes when I am presenting my viewpoint or stating my experience, it comes out sounding just as if I am giving advice...I need to work on better language useage with that. I do evaluate a lot, hazard of my profession... If I have in any way offended or enturbulated you with my posts, I most humbly apologize, that is not my intention. Maybe if we could just sit and chant together, I would be communicating more clearly via my energetic self!

You are so right about the advice, I have trouble with that due to my training and experience, people pay me for my advice, so that gives me a sense of entitlement and makes me feel justified in spreading my opinions around all over the place, often likely where they are not welcomed! I really do try and do it with respect for the persons (and the thetans) involved though. Not always easy. I'm still working on doing this with the greatest sensitivity possible, but frankly, often it is just not appropriate here. Thank you for holding up a mirror to my behavior and reminding me.

I live in one of the most diverse communities in the most diverse state in the Union. I do a great deal of interfaith work as part of my community service. It is a very great benefit to me to have the opportunity to discuss ideas about God, religion and the Bible at length with you and others, even when we disagree. I have multiple Hindu neighbors, serve on a Board with a woman who with her husband is very influential in our local Hindu Temple (yes, my town has one), and serve on the Board of another organization that brings speakers from India each year for an annual peace event celebrating Gandhiji's Ahimsa movement, and so I feel that our discussion would have had real world application and usefulness for me, and I'm not happy about it's loss.

I want to also gently remind you that I am a Christian, and not all Christians are narrow-minded or zenophobic! Many people are stuck in their viewpoints, and this is why we should talk things over fully, in detail. It helps people who otherwise wouldn't be exposed to the thoughts! Many of us are busily washing the dust off of our diamond selves (the work of many lifetimes), we just go about it in different ways! We can learn from each other, even when we disagree.

Also, I think you are missing the way many of us view our relationship to God, but maybe that is a matter better left for pms and a private conversation...

Vinaire, I really admire you for the threads you have started. You are willing to go places in thought and open discussions that many here are not willing to follow. I think we need to talk about God and religion, as Scientology fouls that up for so many, really doing great harm to them, in my experience.

With very great Respect from your Sister Sweetness

Hi Sister,

I like it when a person simply present one’s experience and viewpoint freely for others to consider, without directing it as an advice at somebody specific.

I try to catch myself when I find myself giving advice. I generally present my viewpoint of how I look at something. It is not meant as an advice to anybody. If somebody disagrees with my viewpoint, and tells me that I am wrong, then I would rather not get into an argument. I’ll just present my viewpoint and that’s it. After that I am outta there.

Other’s disagreeing with me does make me look from different viewpoints, and this helps me simplify my viewpoint further if the other person presents a good reason to disagree. But if the other person is simply arguing without presenting any good reason, then it is better to bail out from there.

I think it was time for me to bail out on the last thread. It didn’t take me long to run into the same brick wall that I have run into earlier with Christians. It was Genesis 1:1 and the mention of God that did it again. Once again I was faced with blind or circular faith with no accompanying reason. But those exchanges did help me clarify my own viewpoint, and when that was done, I was out of there.

I am not here to convince anybody of my viewpoint. I am here to simply participate in exchanges that help me clarify my own viewpoint better. That may be selfish on my part. If others simplify their viewpoints in exchanges with me, then so much the better.

If needed, I can always start a “BIBLE II” thread, but right now I want to get through TROM.

I was not taking “R6” seriously because I have no reality on that subject. I kind of equated “R6” with the glimpse I had of a deeply stuck viewpoint under the guise of faith. I have seen so much evil come from that stuck viewpoint on God, that it is mind boggling. Some of these people have no reality outside of their narrow confines. They need to visit other cultures to get better perspective.

But it is their karma. Look what is happening to all those great colonial powers. All those Indian and Pakistani ghettos that you see in England are probably made up of reincarnated Brits who died in British India.

I hope I am not being too disrespectful… I better stop here.

Namaste, sister!

.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

How bout commando?

Zinj

Zinji as THE GREEN MAN!

 

[Vinaire]

...

Vinaire, I really admire you for the threads you have started. You are willing to go places in thought and open discussions that many here are not willing to follow. I think we need to talk about God and religion, as Scientology fouls that up for so many, really doing great harm to them, in my experience.

With very great Respect from your Sister Sweetness

Yes, we need to talk about God and religion, and I believe I am narrowing down to the rotten core of this subject, which makes the discussion of religion so unpalatable.

I do not think that Bible can be properly discussed and understood as long as one believes in an external entity that totally commands one. This belief becomes more dangerous when that entity is is regarded as always correct.

This belief is equivalent to the belief in Body Thetans, Demons, or external whatever... all rolled in one.

This belief worships OTHER-DETERMINISM. It bypasses one's innate sense of responsibility and makes it ok to commit anything at the command of this entity. Is there any surprise if this belief leads to Crusades, Inquisitions, Jihads and Middle East conflicts.

Call it God or Satan, it doesn't matter. The damage is done when one has a belief that makes one COMPLETELY subservient to an external entity.

If there is an "R6", this belief qualifies for it. It is an extreme conditioning that takes one's inherent goodness and sense of responsibility away from one.

This is what frightened me on the BIBLE thread, because such people, to themselves, appear so rational.

But all one has there is a programmed machinery... Ohhhh! They are among us!

I don't want to be one of them. But one can't resist and also win.

Paranoia? I should better go and study about GAMES in TROM.

.

 

[Vinaire]

This seems to be the epic battle of

BRAHMA versus A-BRAHMA (ABRAHIM)

.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Thank you for sharing that

Ah, I understand better, thank you for telling me that, Vinaire. Do you remember what Alanzo said about free will, which is self-determinism? He addressed this on the closed thread. I think all us Christians understand that we have it, that being in, and staying in a relationship with God is our choice to make, or not. Some are pretty insistent about getting you to make the choice, but it's still an individual decision.

As for me, first of all, I do not see God as an external entity to myself, at all. I see myself as being part of all that is God, and God being "Closer to me than my skin", as my Dad used to say. In other words, I really do believe that the Kingdom of Heaven is within me, and you, and Alanzo, and everybody. Some of us just know it or understand it or experience it more so than others. (And I mean everybody-Christians and non Christians alike, but not all Christians agree with me on this.)

Secondly, I do not believe that God totally commands me, suggests, leads, guards, guides, yes, but I still choose my own path and behavior in life, on an day to day ongoing basis. I do not see myself as being the total effect of God, but as a co-creator, as expressing God with my very being. I see myself as being very empowered in this way. I think I was created to express God's qualities in my own unique way. Maybe you could even say that God needs me to be expressed (not just me, all of us, everything, all that is) so I am very important in God's plan for the Universe. So are you.

I am at cause over my own life and the lives of others. "I am my brother's keeper", the practice of Christian love and charity, is all about being at cause, and taking responsibility for improving conditions in the world.

But it is my choice to follow my conscience every moment of every day, and to act on it, or not. Nothing causes me to do so but my own self will, my own willingness to do so.

It is the still small voice within, but it is my still small voice that I hear, God speaking to me through MY voice. I choose, I am at cause over my own behavior, I am never "completely subservient to an external entity". I don't see this as a part of any Christianity that I know.

You always have to choose to be a follower of Christ, and to try and become more Christlike yourself, and that's an ongoing process, a choice made in each moment, not just once, but over and over again, and it lasts forever. You choose it in each moment that you are aware, this is what it means to pray without ceasing. It's putting your understanding of your Spirituality into practice. That is what it means to me to be a part of the body of Christ. It's an ongoing co-creation of reality, or an ongoing commitment, however you want to look at it. I'm not completely subservient to any external entity, I am more than a conqueror, I was given dominion over mest!

I totally agree with what you said here: "I do not think that Bible can be properly discussed and understood as long as one believes in an external entity that totally commands one. This belief becomes more dangerous when that entity is is regarded as always correct. This belief is equivalent to the belief in Body Thetans, Demons, or external whatever... all rolled in one.
This belief worships OTHER-DETERMINISM."

I wouldn't want to belong to a religion that operated under those rules. Mine doesn't. Most forms of Christianity that I am familiar with do not.

It occured to me to say this to you when I was praying last night before falling alseep, based on some questions that arose on the God thread about how we can have a personal relationship with God, when we cannot totally understand what God is. It is this: "God is my Guru".

The closest thing I could find to describing the personal relationship that Christians have to their understanding of God that I know how to relate to in Hinduism is the relationship of a devotee to a Guru, which extends beyond death, and is not limited to material time and space. There is love and teaching and individuality and creativity and power shared there, but the devotee has to be aware enough to want and seek out and find the Guru. The devotee seeks out and fosters the relationship. It is not exactly the same thing, but it is like that, turning to God on a regular basis.

I don't know if this has been at all helpful Vinnie, in showing what my experience of being a Christian is like, but I hope so. It is not at all like what you have described above.

 

[Tiger Lily]

Sweetness and Light that was a beautiful expression of Christianity. I have not seen it practiced that way. You would be a heathen in our church. Personally though, I really like your perspective on it and that seems much more like what religion should be. I loved the thought that we are all here as expressions of God. I've never heard it described quite that way before.

I see both good and bad in Christianity (as it's practiced in a conservative Midwestern community). The good is that there is a kindness and a joy and purpose, and a true community in the church. My favorite people here are Christians (though I'm not sure I consider myself one). There is obviously good there. The negative side is the tendency to judge and to feel superior to all others (even though Jesus expressly taught against that). The "I'm right, you're wrong" thinking may just be wired into us as humans, because you see it everywhere.

I do love the discussion of ideas and viewpoints that I'm seeing now on this thread. Good job guys!

-TL

 

[Vinaire]

I am glad, sister, that the other-determined "God" has not taken over your conscience completely. Your God seems to be different.

But I am talking about that rotten "God" of Christians that has promoted Crusades and the Inquisitions, and which exists even today in many forms of extremism among Christians.

I am talking about the rotten "Yahweh" of Jews that is getting Israelis to build more settlements on West Bank and East Jerusalem, and which is keeping the Middle East conflict going, which is endangering peace.

I am talking about that rotten "Allah" of Muslims that is keeping the cruel Jihad going, and which has given birth to Taliban and its cruelty.

And in some ways, I am also talking about that rotten "Bhagwan" of the Hindus, which is keeping the caste system and the abject poverty there.

It is up to us to recognize that rotten aspect of "God" or whatever and look at it thoroughly.

That is "R6" to me.

.

 

[Panda Termint]

Vin, it was MEN who promoted the Crusades and Inquisitions; they just fooled people into believing it was God's will.
Ditto with the other examples you gave.

 

[Vinaire]

Vin, it was MEN who promoted the Crusades and Inquisitions; they just fooled people into believing it was God's will.
Ditto with the other examples you gave.

Did those "MEN" fool others or were they fooled themselves by an external determinism that they believed to be guiding them?

Either man is basically evil, or it is man's belief in an external determinism that causes such atrocities in God's name.

.

 

[Panda Termint]

Did those "MEN" fool others or were they folled by an external determinism that they believed in to be guiding them?

.

I have no love for fanatics of any ilk nor religions that persecute others for believing in different things.
I think these MEN were following a not-unknowable agenda to further their own political power. It had/has nothing to do with God's will.
That's just how I see it.

 

[alex]

Yes, we need to talk about God and religion, and I believe I am narrowing down to the rotten core of this subject, which makes the discussion of religion so unpalatable.

I do not think that Bible can be properly discussed and understood as long as one believes in an external entity that totally commands one. This belief becomes more dangerous when that entity is is regarded as always correct.

This belief is equivalent to the belief in Body Thetans, Demons, or external whatever... all rolled in one.

This belief worships OTHER-DETERMINISM. It bypasses one's innate sense of responsibility and makes it ok to commit anything at the command of this entity. Is there any surprise if this belief leads to Crusades, Inquisitions, Jihads and Middle East conflicts.

Call it God or Satan, it doesn't matter. The damage is done when one has a belief that makes one COMPLETELY subservient to an external entity.

If there is an "R6", this belief qualifies for it. It is an extreme conditioning that takes one's inherent goodness and sense of responsibility away from one.

This is what frightened me on the BIBLE thread, because such people, to themselves, appear so rational.

But all one has there is a programmed machinery... Ohhhh! They are among us!

I don't want to be one of them. But one can't resist and also win.

Paranoia? I should better go and study about GAMES in TROM.

.

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11316

it's not that "they" (other spiritual entities) are you, or even that you (or anyone else) created them...

it's that you and them were once part of the same larger whole. and still share connection and experience....

and in splitting off, like a clone, carried the full and infinite potential of the whole in each of you.

there is your god.

there are you.

 

[Vinaire]

I have no love for fanatics of any ilk nor religions that persecute others for believing in different things.
I think these MEN were following a not-unknowable agenda to further their own political power. It had/has nothing to do with God's will.
That's just how I see it.

The way I see it is that it is the belief in other-determinism guiding one that makes fanatics.

That belief provides the basis for all kind of conditioning.

.