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I had to change my mind about Indies/FZers and their behavior

I suggest we don't redefine it! :p I certainly don't want a bunch of politicians deciding what constitutes a valid religion and what doesn't. I fully support a redefinition of what constitutes charity and charitable works, though, and agree churches should only gain tax exemption on things of that nature. That alone would be a game changer IMO.

I don't think it's possible to redefine religion, at least if people's tax exemption were to be based on the definition. Words meanings change, and "religion" now has a broader meaning than it used to for many people. The "edges' of the current definition are getting fuzzier and fuzzier. Trying to redefine the word is trying to go backwards in language evolution. Deliberate redefining is possible "Gay" is an example, but it needs a concerted effort by people who want the word changed, and a lot of deliberate use of the new use of the word to make the new definition stick.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I don't see why any religious organisation should have charitable status/tax exemption, and I think that their workers should have the same rights as any other employee. Is there some good reason that I'm not aware of?
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't see why any religious organisation should have charitable status/tax exemption, and I think that their workers should have the same rights as any other employee. Is there some good reason that I'm not aware of?

I don't see one, I'm just thinking that it'd be easier to lobby for a change in the definition of what constitutes charitable works and limit tax exemption to that than it would be to strip religions of tax exemption altogether.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I don't see one, I'm just thinking that it'd be easier to lobby for a change in the definition of what constitutes charitable works and limit tax exemption to that than it would be to strip religions of tax exemption altogether.

I know of a convent that operates a soup kitchen - nice people. I would think it appropriate for the soup kitchen to be tax exempt/ have charitable status, but outside of that I can't see why they should have any special status.
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
I know of a convent that operates a soup kitchen - nice people. I would think it appropriate for the soup kitchen to be tax exempt/ have charitable status, but outside of that I can't see why they should have any special status.

There's a church near me that runs a free Pre-K and daycare for underprivileged families, I think that would also qualify.

That's exactly the sort of distinction that I would like to see, though - charitable works should be tax exempt. Bentleys, jet planes, grand buildings, and 2K suits should not.
 

Outethicsofficer

Silver Meritorious Patron
I wasn't trying to be vague, purposefully or otherwise.

I could be wrong (not like that shit never happens!) but seems to me that the ones who are trying to organize and centralize their Indie or FZ venue seem to be the worst of the goosesteppers, as witness by the very recent bannings and the crap ass reasons for them. So that's why I phrased it that way.

...the current band of ' goosestepper' is more 'in tech' than the 'squirrel Cof S'. This current new brand is so goddamn right it must hurt them. After all they must uphold the 'tech' the old man would expect it! It is another cult.
 
I know of a convent that operates a soup kitchen - nice people. I would think it appropriate for the soup kitchen to be tax exempt/ have charitable status, but outside of that I can't see why they should have any special status.

And I would agree. Unfortunately the influence of institutional christianity is extremely powerful in the western world and legal precedent is very long standing in extending special privileges to religious institutions. The latter goes back literally millenia. The political reality is that none of that will change soon no matter how much such changes may be warranted.


Mark A. Baker
 
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Gottabrain

Guest
And I would agree. Unfortunately the influence of institutional christianity is extremely powerful in the western world and legal precedent is very long standing in extending special privileges to religious institutions. The latter goes back literally millenia. The political reality is that none of that will change soon no matter how much such changes may be warranted.


Mark A. Baker

Judging from the last US election, not as powerful as in days past. Considering the state of the US economy and the strong stand of Christian groups against Barack Obama (many really believe he is the Antichrist!), the fact that he STILL won re-election shows institutional Christianity has lost quite a bit of power in the political arena.
 
There's a church near me that runs a free Pre-K and daycare for underprivileged families, I think that would also qualify. ...

And I would dispute that since such church run 'free' educational programs are intended principally for purposes of recruitment and indoctrination. Now when they run free secular schools without religious indoctrination we can talk. :)


Mark A. Baker
 

Anonycat

Crusader
I know of a convent that operates a soup kitchen - nice people. I would think it appropriate for the soup kitchen to be tax exempt/ have charitable status, but outside of that I can't see why they should have any special status.

And it is not mandated in the Constitution. One argument for exemption is: separation of Church and State. I see that as the opposite; granting favors of no property tax is an involvement. It separates them from everyone else.

As Mark Twain argued: "no church property is taxed and so the infidel and the atheist and the man without religion are taxed to make up the deficit in the public income thus caused." Strangely, this logic seems more sound.

I am joking in part, because the reason for the tax break which started in 1894, was that Churches provided a much needed service. And consensus was to approve of this noble gesture. Today - 118 years later - we have the need to make some changes. True charity is easy to track. And there are some much needed services that some Churches provide. In the South, they have provided for black communities as a tradition. And then there are the other guys.

According to former White House senior policy analyst Jeff Schweitzer, PhD, US churches own $300-$500 billion in untaxed property. New York's nonpartisan Independent Budget Office determined in July 2011, that New York City alone loses $627 million in property tax revenue. Lakewood Church, a "megachurch" in Houston, TX, earns $75 million in annual untaxed revenue, and the Church of Scientology's annual income exceeds $500 million.
 
Judging from the last US election, not as powerful as in days past. Considering the state of the US economy and the strong stand of Christian groups against Barack Obama (many really believe he is the Antichrist!), the fact that he STILL won re-election shows institutional Christianity has lost quite a bit of power in the political arena.

Not exactly. There were also quite powerful christian religious groups who supported his re-election. The fundamentalists are noisier, but they aren't by any means the only powerful religious involved in u.s. politics.


Mark A. Baker
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
...the current band of ' goosestepper' is more 'in tech' than the 'squirrel Cof S'. This current new brand is so goddamn right it must hurt them. After all they must uphold the 'tech' the old man would expect it! It is another cult.

That's actually their selling point - more in tech and on policy than CoS.
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
And I would dispute that since such church run 'free' educational programs are intended principally for purposes of recruitment and indoctrination. Now when they run free secular schools without religious indoctrination we can talk. :)


Mark A. Baker

Idk what they teach to tots - it's a Catholic run program, but the families it serves are not necessarily Catholic.
 
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Gottabrain

Guest
Not exactly. There were also quite powerful christian religious groups who supported his re-election. The fundamentalists are noisier, but they aren't by any means the only powerful religious involved in u.s. politics.


Mark A. Baker

I don't think so. Specifically, which religious groups/churches are you referring to?

Look at the states he lost - primarily southern Baptist or heavily Christian oriented.

349px-ElectoralCollege2012.svg.png
 
Idk what they teach to tots - it's a Catholic run program, but the families it serves are not necessarily Catholic.

Hence they serve an evangelistic purpose intended as a means of encouraging conversion. As I said, can the christian teachings and perspectives and they'll have a possible line of argument.


Mark A. Baker
 

Anonycat

Crusader
I don't think so. Specifically, which religious groups/churches are you referring to?

Look at the states he lost - primarily southern Baptist or heavily Christian oriented.

349px-ElectoralCollege2012.svg.png


Despite the 1954 law banning political campaigning by tax-exempt groups, many churches are political machines. Every fall, the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal group, organizes "Pulpit Freedom Sunday," encouraging pastors to defy IRS rules by endorsing candidates from the pulpit.

More than 500 pastors participated in Oct. 2011, yet none lost their churches' exemption status. In Oct. 2010, Minnesota pastor Brad Brandon of Berean Bible Baptist Church endorsed several Republican candidates and dared the "liberal media" to file complaints with the IRS. Brandon later announced on his radio program: "I'm going to explain to you what happened… Nothing happened."
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
I get the feeling that Dan Koon is Ayatollah in charge of technical purity. Is that right?

invasion_of_the_body_snatchers.png


That's Dan in the middle.

Got me. I've corresponded with him before and he didn't strike me as a zealot. My impression was that he was more interested in pursuing his art than in heading up a technical division. He's the one who put a lot of their checksheets together though.
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hence they serve an evangelistic purpose intended as a means of encouraging conversion. As I said, can the christian teachings and perspectives and they'll have a possible line of argument.


Mark A. Baker

You can hardly expect a religious institution to make a policy of engaging in only secular expressions of charity. :eyeroll: If it provides a needed service to the community and is done without cost to the recipients then it's charity.
 
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