I have an MU on Indies

[10oriocookies]

P.P.P.S. Saint TG1 has spoken. All must bow.

TG1, I apologize for being rude to you (and all others). Even Ralph, Terril and Cat. One thing I am absolutely for is religious freedom. Practice what you will and become better any way you see fit. Just dont abuse/mislead others in the process (not accusing you).

 

[Boson Wog Stark]

Generalisation after generalisation. Whom are you talking about here?

Okay, I'll be more specific -- for you, a "feeling of warmth" is a spirit guide. You experienced this during auditing. How about if it is just a feeling of warmth? Bet you never considered that, because you "know," right? Good luck with that.

I quoted, specifically, Howard Dickman, "SanDiegoMember" on ESMB.

Except for Claire, most of the time, I can't really relate to indies, because at one time I considered myself to be a somewhat spiritual person, but now that I'm not, I feel better that I left that pile of baloney behind me. It didn't help me, although I realize that fantasizing about contacting other realms etc., does make some people feel good. Every thought they have is some kind of magickal golden shit no one else is capable of having.

Clams get intolerable with that stuff. Hubbard was the most absurd, inflated, blowhard, know-it-all LIAR -- really, an anti-Dalai Lama and anti-Christ type figure. After all, he claims those are implants. What a nutter!

 

[Veda]

-snip-

Veda can be ill mannered

-snip-

For example :

I must admit, it's slightly disconcerting to consider that someone who cannot discern the sordid insincerity of Scientology's phony 'Creed', written as accompanying PR-cover for its "Religion angle," would be in a position to influence the minds of others in an intimate fashion, providing "Hubbard Guidance" as others are led "up the Scientology Bridge." http://scientologistsfreezone.com/LRH2.jpg

You've often made such disparaging comments.

And yes the creed has been honoured in the breech so often.

You often claim that I and others use PR.

That scientologists are not able to discern anything.

You here blatently use black PR.

You describe the creed as " sordid insincerity", " Phony".

As PR cover for its "religion angle".

That its a bad thing leading others "up the Scientology Bridge."


So you don't subscribe to human rights?

The Creed expresses many points re humann rights.

We could assume her that you and human rights are distant.

A Creed by definition embodies fundamental beliefs.

You seem to be unaware of that.

Excerpt from above post:

"You often claim that I and others use PR.

"That scientologists are not able to discern anything.

"You here blatently use black PR.

"You describe the creed as 'sordid insincerity', 'Phony'.

"As PR cover for its 'religion angle'.

"That its a bad thing leading others 'up the Scientology Bridge'.

"So you don't subscribe to human rights?

"The Creed expresses many points re humann rights.

"We could assume her that you and human rights are distant."

_________​

Some background:

Around 1971, after surveying public opinion, Hubbard switched from mainly calling his enemies "communists" (and sex perverts) to mainly calling them "Nazis" (and sex perverts); these days, "haters" and "bigots" are amongst those "buttons" judged effective.

L. Ron Hubbard explains how to use propaganda (to push the "hate" and "love" "buttons" of "wogs") in 'Battle Tactics' of 16 February 1969:

"The only safe public opinion to head for is they love us and are in a frenzy of hate against the enemy, that means standard wartime propaganda is what one is doing... Know the mores of your public opinion, what they hate. That's the enemy. What they love. That's you."


And another piece of Scientology tech, from Hubbard's 'Black Propaganda' of 12 January 1972:

"The objective is to be identified as attackers of popularly considered evils [these days that's Miscavige, etc.]. This declassifies us from former labels. It reclassifies our attackers as evil people."

And from 'Ron's Journal 68', with references to the "human rights" button excerpted only:


"...And the general attack line is along the line of human rights; yes human rights...

"Now I'll give you a clue on how this is handled, somebody comes up to you he's hostile - he's hostile to Scientology and he says to you and he says na na na Scientology and you say why are you against human rights and uh and if you know anything about human rights like the universal declaration of human rights, United Nations - that sort of thing you know if you know something about this subject you just follow it right straight up - in other words you don't defend Scientology, you just attack along this line of human rights, you see...

"Tell him or her ...uh ...the hostile person the hostile press line uh...for instance a newspaper writes an article on how bad Scientology is - any Scientologist reading this should run right to that newspaper and demand: Why are you against human rights?...

"Whereas an attack on Scientology is actually an attack on human rights - anyone making an attack on Scientology is an attack on human rights...

"Each time Scientology is attacked, we build into society, if you do this, we'll build into society an actual stimulus response mechanism whereas an attack on Scientology is an attack on human rights."

 

[SpecialFrog]

When it happened I had no idea what was happening, and I'd never experienced anything like it before.

I'm with you so far.

Initially I thought I was a twin or double thetan. Then I realised I had split into two beings, or separated from someone theta clear or above. She was totally happy existing without a body, and I had the most intense affinity flows of my existence to date.

This is where you lose me.

Later someone told me this seemed like "twin flames"

Much later someone is telling you that this seemed like jumping to conclusions.

I accept that people have "mysterious" experiences. I don't accept that an explanation that feels right is inherently reasonable or likely one.

I don't know what my brain is actually doing at any point and I suspect you don't either.

There are several theories as to the why and how of twin flames. Its definitely not rocket science!

I agree with you that it isn't rocket science.

 

[Ralph Hilton]

"Generate And Control Energy At Will". These are the types of claims that make it hard for anyone to take Scn seriously. That, along with no one being able to produce or reproduce any other of the super powers promised. I may be an asshole and have bad manners, but at least I can see that I was duped into believing this non-sense and am not still duping people to do the same (in or out of the church). FZers still do this no matter what they say. But they gotta eat though.

Snide comments don't get you brownie points. Most Independent Scientologists (outside of the "Ron's Orgs") don't engage in all that hype.
And I wouldn't buy a used condom from that lady.

 

[Veda]

Ralph, you say you're OT 8. How is an OT 8 different from an average human?

 

[phenomanon]

Why shocked ? IMHO R3RA is the only half-decent "useful" thing in the whole complex called dianetics/scientology....

Edit: For the lurkers: "R3RA" = "Routine 3 revised" = "Engram running by chains"

What shocked me was that Sarge Gerbode was disseminating a subject that he called TIR, while in actual fact, he was delivering R3RA, ( Dianetics), with absolutely no ack that it was LRH's *material*. Part of that 'shock' was the fact that RTC knew it, and did nothing to protect *their* copyrights. I assumed that RTC saw it, most likely at Ron's direction, as "getting Dn/Scn into the 'mainstream'.

LRH did that with Van Vogt as well.
In the 60's, Van Vogt was in Sausalito, California advertising in the San Francisco and Marin County newspapers, a service that he called "e meter clearing".
I reported it to Heber and Heber told me that LRH had ordered 'hands off' Van Vogt. .
I suspect that is why Sarge Gerbode was/is allowed to deliver Dn/Scn under his own banner.

Hope that helps.

 

[phenomanon]

There is no open Scn forum that does not have a majority of critics.

To put it mildly!

Geir's was the closest. And thats gone.

It's gone??? Didn't Claire take it over? What happened that it failed?

 

[uniquemand]

It's gone??? Didn't Claire take it over? What happened that it failed?

My guess is that Scientology was applied.

 

[phenomanon]

TIR consists of finding an incident a person experienced, having them recount it, then going "earlier similar" if it doesn't resolve. This is also known as abreactive regression. Hubbard stole this from Freud and claimed he invented it. He didn't. TIR continues to use abreactive regression. Hubbard and Scientology have no patent on Freud's work.

I believe you, however, LRH wrote the procedure for running these incidents. He called the procedure R3R. It is a rote procedure, and that IS the procedure that TIR uses.
RTC claims the 'patent' on the procedure, and that is what TIR uses.
So if Hub is to be called a plagerist, then Sarge has to be 'painted with the same brush'. So far as I know, Freud did not issue a procedure for the unburdening of these traumatic incidents. Hub did. " Render unto Caesar".

I reckon if you are into TIR, you can say "well Freud *invented* abreactive regression. It's the same thing".

 

[Ralph Hilton]

What shocked me was that Sarge Gerbode was disseminating a subject that he called TIR, while in actual fact, he was delivering R3RA, ( Dianetics), with absolutely no ack that it was LRH's *material*

I have an autographed first edition copy of his book. I found it too dry to get past the first 30 pages or so. He does acknowledge Scientology near the beginning.

 

[uniquemand]

What shocked me was that Sarge Gerbode was disseminating a subject that he called TIR, while in actual fact, he was delivering R3RA, ( Dianetics), with absolutely no ack that it was LRH's *material*. Part of that 'shock' was the fact that RTC knew it, and did nothing to protect *their* copyrights. I assumed that RTC saw it, most likely at Ron's direction, as "getting Dn/Scn into the 'mainstream'.

LRH did that with Van Vogt as well.
In the 60's, Van Vogt was in Sausalito, California advertising in the San Francisco and Marin County newspapers, a service that he called "e meter clearing".
I reported it to Heber and Heber told me that LRH had ordered 'hands off' Van Vogt. .
I suspect that is why Sarge Gerbode was/is allowed to deliver Dn/Scn under his own banner.

Hope that helps.

The reason why the Church laid off Gerbode (and company) is that they had a negotiated settlement after a protracted legal war.

The Church realized they did not own abreactive therapy. Their main concerns were words being used and public being drawn from them. Those were settled.

Furthermore, in the foreword of Gerbode's book, he does acknowledge that he was involved with Scientology and that many of their methods were humanitarian and useful, while the organization and its founder were... not. There is no deception, here, and the two organizations are connected in NO way, other than some personnel that were once Scientologists now being Metapsychologists.

The misunderstanding, here, apparently, is that Hubbard owned abreaction.

 

[uniquemand]

I believe you, however, LRH wrote the procedure for running these incidents. He called the procedure R3R. It is a rote procedure, and that IS the procedure that TIR uses.
RTC claims the 'patent' on the procedure, and that is what TIR uses.
So if Hub is to be called a plagerist, then Sarge has to be 'painted with the same brush'. So far as I know, Freud did not issue a procedure for the unburdening of these traumatic incidents. Hub did. " Render unto Caesar".

I reckon if you are into TIR, you can say "well Freud *invented* abreactive regression. It's the same thing".

Here's Freud himself on the matter: "What left the symptom behind was not always a single experience. On the contrary, the result was usually brought about by the convergence of several traumas, and often by the repetition of a great number of similar ones. Thus it was necessary to reproduce the whole chain of pathogenic memories in chronologic order, or rather in reversed order, the latest ones first and the earliest ones last."

http://tir.org/research_pub/art/psychological-foundations.html

Note the inclusion of Hubbard and Dianetics in their own papers and pages:

"TIR and virtually every other contemporary regressive and imaginal desensitization procedure used in the remediation of trauma - including "sequential analysis" (Blundell and Cade), "direct therapeutic exposure" (Boudewyns), "prolonged imaginal exposure" (Foa and Olasov), "gradual dosing" (Horowitz), "dianetics" (Hubbard), "flooding" (Keane and Kaloupek), "repetitive review" (Raimy), and "implosion" (Stampfl and Lewis)..."

 

[Veda]

The reason why the Church laid off Gerbode (and company) is that they had a negotiated settlement after a protracted legal war.

The Church realized they did not own abreactive therapy. Their main concerns were words being used and public being drawn from them. Those were settled.

Furthermore, in the foreword of Gerbode's book, he does acknowledge that he was involved with Scientology and that many of their methods were humanitarian and useful, while the organization and its founder were... not. There is no deception, here, and the two organizations are connected in NO way, other than some personnel that were once Scientologists now being Metapsychologists.

The misunderstanding, here, apparently, is that Hubbard owned abreaction.

The information I have, which may or may not be completely accurate, is that David Mayo had depended upon Gerbode for funding the legal case, then Gerbode sold the David Mayo IOU to Scientology Inc., thus pulling the rug out from under David Mayo. Mayo settled with Scientology Inc., then Scientology Inc. presented Mayo with the IOU, which Scientology Inc. then owned, and Mayo had to pay Scientology Inc. the amount of the IOU. Part of that Gerbode/Scientology Inc. deal was Gerbode using his re-cycled Dianetic and Scientology tech without reprisal. It had nothing to do with the "Church" realizing they did not own abreaction therapy. It was more like: Let's crush David Mayo, no matter what it takes.

The above is what I have heard from someone I consider a reliable source, however, I'd want to examine the topic further before asserting it as a fact and, for the most part, unless both Gerbode and David Mayo have something to say on the topic, there's not much point in pursuing the topic.

 

[uncover]

Snide comments don't get you brownie points. Most Independent Scientologists (outside of the "Ron's Orgs") don't engage in all that hype.
And I wouldn't buy a used condom from that lady.

Where else do you buy your used condoms usually ?

 

[phenomanon]

The reason why the Church laid off Gerbode (and company) is that they had a negotiated settlement after a protracted legal war.

The Church realized they did not own abreactive therapy. Their main concerns were words being used and public being drawn from them. Those were settled.

Furthermore, in the foreword of Gerbode's book, he does acknowledge that he was involved with Scientology and that many of their methods were humanitarian and useful, while the organization and its founder were... not. There is no deception, here, and the two organizations are connected in NO way, other than some personnel that were once Scientologists now being Metapsychologists.

The misunderstanding, here, apparently, is that Hubbard owned abreaction.

There's no misunderstanding.
I went to a Seminar named TIR.
I had "done" every Dianetics course that had come down the pike since 1950.
I know R3R when I see and hear it.
The TIR procedure turned out to be R3RA VERBATIM.
Had I known that, in advance of the Seminar, I would not have gone to it.
If y'all want to "do" Dianetics and call it something else, well, fine. But, at least, don't mislead others. (I don't blame anyone for not labelling himself "a Scientologist". LOL).
The ppl ( Psychologists and Psychiatrists were the "public" for this Seminar) had not read
Sarge's book. They were misled to believe that Sarge Gerbode was *the source* of this "break through".

 

[Free Being Me]

Windies re-marketing Elcon's old hoke.​

 

[Terril park]

I'm with you so far.


This is where you lose me.


Much later someone is telling you that this seemed like jumping to conclusions.

I accept that people have "mysterious" experiences. I don't accept that an explanation that feels right is inherently reasonable or likely one.

Feels right is a good start. I still havn't jumped to conclusions as is evident.

QUOTE=SpecialFrog;897352]
I don't know what my brain is actually doing at any point and I suspect you don't either.[/QUOTE]

Well I've stated my reservations.

QUOTE=SpecialFrog;897352]
I agree with you that it isn't rocket science.[/QUOTE]

So what truth is involved?

 

[uniquemand]

There's no misunderstanding.
I went to a Seminar named TIR.
I had "done" every Dianetics course that had come down the pike since 1950.
I know R3R when I see and hear it.
The TIR procedure turned out to be R3RA VERBATIM.
Had I known that, in advance of the Seminar, I would not have gone to it.
If y'all want to "do" Dianetics and call it something else, well, fine. But, at least, don't mislead others. (I don't blame anyone for not labelling himself "a Scientologist". LOL).
The ppl ( Psychologists and Psychiatrists were the "public" for this Seminar) had not read
Sarge's book. They were misled to believe that Sarge Gerbode was *the source* of this "break through".

I understand your complaint. If a person were to tell me that this seemed like Dianetics, I would explain Sarge's history Scientology. I've never had that happen. You're correct that the method of TIR is identical to the method of Dianetics, and Thematic TIR is very similar to R3RA (it is not identical, there are procedural differences). Dianetics and Scientology, however, have come to mean something very different to the world at large and to psychologists and psychiatrists. Metapsychology works to get its procedures scientifically tested, publications reviewed and APA approval for their training materials. The goal is not "Clears and OTs", but people addressing real problems and obtaining real help.

 

[10oriocookies]

Snide comments don't get you brownie points. Most Independent Scientologists (outside of the "Ron's Orgs") don't engage in all that hype.
And I wouldn't buy a used condom from that lady.

So who would you buy a used condom from Ralph?

I get that they dont engage in "all that hype". They just pretend they arent a part of it all when in reality they are selling the same thing as the "church". You do sell the Bridge right Ralph? A Bridge that you say doesnt have any reproducible states or something like that? The hypocrisy is the same in and out of the church. Outside of the church you guys just have less money to mess with people when they mess with you.