I love Scientology

[Alanzo]

It is still a choice as to what is better.

Logic serves to make choice consistent with the model in which the logic is the description.

Other models can and do exist.

alex

Example of another model that takes the place of logic, please...

 

[Zinjifar]

And of course 4 valued logic is just the major vectors.....

There is the possiblility of infinite blending or subvectors....

The holistic understanding of all possibilities is the truth...

Which ultimately makes it simple choice as to what viewpoint to inhabit amoung the infinite potential.

Logic resolves itself to whim....

alex

And, that's the point to Ron's 'Infinite Valued Logic'; the reductio ad absurdum of all logic, leaving the ravings of Ron as the only 'Stable Datum' for the afflicted to clammer to.

Zinj

 

[alex]

Example of another model that takes the place of logic, please...

pure randomness.

The model does not take the place of logic, logic is the recognition of the "rules" of the model.

The model is what ever it was created as, logic is subordinate.

alex

 

[gomorrhan]

well, he has kept the "I love Scientology" thread name on the front page for 2 days...mebbe OSA counts that as a "headline"?

Their statistics don't take into account negative impact. As such, I'm happy to help them with statistics that don't help them.

 

[Alanzo]

pure randomness.

The model does not take the place of logic, logic is the recognition of the "rules" of the model.

The model is what ever it was created as, logic is subordinate.

alex

OK, alex.

But this really doesn't make that much sense.

Pure randomness is not a model. And when you are making a decision about what career choice to make, how to feed your family, what car to buy, where to shop for groceries, or whether to sign a 5 year no-pay contract, or a 2.5 year no-pay contract, pure randmoness is completely destructive to your own life and survival.

Now come on, Alex. I know that you are not totally in the clouds of infinitization.

Come back down and give me the workable substitute for logic in making the best decisions for your own REAL LIFE.

 

[alex]

OK, alex.

But this really doesn't make that much sense.

Pure randomness is not a model. And when you are making a decision about what career choice to make, how to feed your family, what car to buy, where to shop for groceries, or whether to sign a 5 year no-pay contract, or a 2.5 year no-pay contract, pure randmoness is completely destructive to your own life and survival.

Now come on, Alex. I know that you are not totally in the clouds of infinitization.

Come back down and give me the workable substitute for logic in making the best decisions for your own REAL LIFE.

Generally I rationalize after the fact, in a life of habit.


But you keep on using reason, I like YOU that way.

alex (logic the slavemaster of the unimaginative... "best decisions for your own REAL LIFE" presupposes some ideal outcome not of your choice)

 

[nozeno]

I have the "old model", common sense.

Now stop avoiding the question boys and girls.

How many angels can dance on the head of a needle?

 

[Alanzo]

Generally I rationalize after the fact, in a life of habit.


But you keep on using reason, I like YOU that way.

alex (logic the slavemaster of the unimaginative... "best decisions for your own REAL LIFE" presupposes some ideal outcome not of your choice)

LOL!

So your actual argument is in parenthesis:

"Logic is the slavemaster of the unimaginative"

That's a great one!

And, "the best decisions for your own REAL Life presupposes some ideal outcome not of your choice"

I'm thinking hard on that one...presupposes some idea outcome not of your choice...ideal outcome not of your choice.....

OK. I don't get it.

Tell me more how using logic to make the best decisions you can for your own real life presupposes some ideal outcome not of your choice.

Can you give me a real life example of that, too, while you are at it?

 

[Alanzo]

I have the "old model", common sense.

Now stop avoiding the question bys and girls.

How many angels can dance on the head of a needle?

Jesus Christ. Do we have to spell everything out for you?

First, it's not a needle - it's a pin, the head of a pin. That's very different.

Second, 19.

 

[alex]

LOL!

So your actual argument is in parenthesis:

"Logic is the slavemaster of the unimaginative"

That's a great one!

And, "the best decisions for your own REAL Life presupposes some ideal outcome not of your choice"

I'm thinking hard on that one...presupposes some idea outcome not of your choice...ideal outcome not of your choice.....

OK. I don't get it.

Tell me more how using logic to make the best decisions you can for your own real life presupposes some ideal outcome not of your choice.

Can you give me a real life example of that, too, while you are at it?

Logic, being the recognition of the rules of the model, is simply agreement to a certain way of things being. Logic does not always get one to the condition one wishes as it is locked to the ways of the model.

I wish to live in a state of shared love with my fellow man. Logic tells me this is not possible. So I choose to live in ways that do not fit the model, or respect the logic.

Choice can maintain ones integrity, logic demands obedience regardless of it.

alex

 

[Zinjifar]

Jesus Christ. Do we have to spell everything out for you?

First, it's not a needle - it's a pin, the head of a pin. That's very different.

Second, 19.

You're forgetting that demons are also angels and many of them have hundreds of itty-bitty millipede feet. Also, it only takes one cherubim with a flaming sword to clear the whole pinhead.

Zinj

 

[nozeno]

Jesus Christ. Do we have to spell everything out for you?

First, it's not a needle - it's a pin, the head of a pin. That's very different.

Second, 19.

Thanks and thanks for not answering. I was beginning to think youse were on to something.

 

[thetanic]

The behaviour patterns were very similar.

1. They introduced themselves and tried to handle the BPR and/or told us about all the great wins they had.

2. When confronted with the documented abuses, the usual reaction was - "well, I did not see such things myself in the church" and "it can't be COMPLETELY true" and "but you should look at all the good things the church is doing"

3. As the other people and critics there did not change their viewpoint on scientology due to their "handling", they became increasingly frustated, going into personal insults.

4. After a while they told how intolerant and uninformed we are and left for good.

Some of us did exactly that and then eventually left. The seed of doubt sprouted.

I've been out more than a decade. I have read a lot of stories in that time, and it's still hard to believe some of them. I'm not saying they're not true, it's just that they don't mesh well with what I saw, and they didn't involve people I knew.

 

[Alanzo]

Logic, being the recognition of the rules of the model, is simply agreement to a certain way of things being. Logic does not always get one to the condition one wishes as it is locked to the ways of the model.

I wish to live in a state of shared love with my fellow man. Logic tells me this is not possible. So I choose to live in ways that do not fit the model, or respect the logic.

Choice can maintain ones integrity, logic demands obedience regardless of it.

alex

All right.

Real life example?

 

[nozeno]

You're forgetting that demons are also angels and many of them have hundreds of itty-bitty millipede feet. Also, it only takes one cherubim with a flaming sword to clear the whole pinhead.

Zinj

And you are forgetting that my screename was derived from: Zeno of Elea (pronounced /ˈziːnoʊ əv ˈɛliə/, Greek: Ζήνων ὁ Ἐλεάτης) (ca. 490 BC? – ca. 430 BC?) was a pre-Socratic Greek philosopher of southern Italy and a member of the Eleatic School founded by Parmenides. Aristotle called him the inventor of the dialectic[1], and Bertrand Russell credited him with having laid the foundations of modern logic. He is best known for his paradoxes.

I am NOZENO so stop spinning me in with all this PHILOSOPHY and LOGIC stuff.

Besides, the name was close to Xenu and I'm not him either.

Hey, I'm a simple man, what can I say? It doesn't take much to amuse me.

 

[Zinjifar]

I'll assume you've read Daniel F. Galouye's 'Simulacron 3' then

Pinhead here, achilles tendon there...

Zinj

 

[nozeno]

I'll assume you've read Daniel F. Galouye's 'Simulacron 3' then

Pinhead here, achilles tendon there...

Zinj

No, but I'll look for it on CliffsNotes.

 

[Zinjifar]

No, but I'll look for it on CliffsNotes.

Actually, I'm glad you reminded me. I've gone through at least a dozen copies since I was 13, but, nowdays, you can't hardly find one for less than $50 - $75.

Luckily, somebody had it on ebay, so nyaah nyaaah.

There's an interesting mention here:

http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_Tradition/PTch18.htm

Zinj

 

[Hautbois]

philo geek moment

And you are forgetting that my screename was derived from: Zeno of Elea.

I am NOZENO so stop spinning me in with all this PHILOSOPHY and LOGIC stuff.

Hey, I'm a simple man, what can I say? It doesn't take much to amuse me.

Not to be cynical, but you sound like Zeno of Citium.

(All philosophy puns are intended.)

Besides, the name was close to Xenu and I'm not him either.

Yes, but we all know the reason you and the parents of both Zenos picked that name was because of a subconscious implant. Is it any surprise all three of you are renegades? I think not! :angel:

 

[nozeno]

Actually, I'm glad you reminded me. I've gone through at least a dozen copies since I was 13, but, nowdays, you can't hardly find one for less than $50 - $75.

Luckily, somebody had it on ebay, so nyaah nyaaah.

There's an interesting mention here:

http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_Tradition/PTch18.htm

Zinj

You can buy it here for 6 bucks my homey, so nyaah nyaah nyaah.

http://www.ebooksabouteverything.com/ebooks/category.cgi?item=parent-9780795301100

Yeah yeah, I know you like to hold it and smell it and experience the heft.