I need real answers in real English! Please!

[Michele_B]

I do have some questions answered, yes. Unfortunately, It is very difficult, if not impossible for me to get through. He is fully indoctrinated I'm afraid. I am glad that he is no longer in the church though, even though he still "knows the truth". I cannot understand how all of these evil things happen in the church, and that there are people imprisoned! That is so wrong and absolutely nuts. I also can't comprehend neglecting children in order to go up the bridge. This cult has got to be the most devastating, damaging one out there. I am so grateful for this site and for everyone's help. I could have found myself and my daughter in a nightmarish trap, but I have been steered away, Thank God. I don't have any expertise in this, but I am still wanting to help in freeing Scientologist from the church. My expertise is in helping alcoholics and addicts to stay sober, but freeing a mind from Scientology? So far I have failed. Hey, did you guys really yell "Hip Hip Hooray" to a photo of L Ron at graduations like in the movie "The Bridge."? I just thought that was too weird. There is no fucking way I could ever see myself doing that, or playing with clay. Stupid. Sorry to offend anyone but I think its dumb.

 

[Claire Swazey]

They don't "play" with clay, Michele. If it's a course, then they demonstrate the concept in clay. ("clay demo") That actually is a relatively benign thing, works ok.

If it's "clay table auditing" then it's a type of counselling. I liked that, when I did it, actually. It was kinda cool. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all of enlightening experiences or that the study stuff is the Next Big Thing in revolutionizing the field of education (it's not) but it's not "playing".

 

[NoName]

I never got involved beyond Dianetics so no clay demos for me. But had I known about it I might have got clay and tried the technique when I was failing bivariate calculus. Might of been helpful with some of the three-space stuff I never understood. Dunno.but it doesn't sound that far fetched until you start talking about LRH having people clay demo abstract concepts. That just sounds silly.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Oh, I'm pretty sure that the purported effects of Study Tech (which they represent as superior to any other method) are quite exaggerated. I don't think that people who don't do clay demos will never learn anything. I think it can illustrate a principle and it's kinda fun, but that's all.

But whether it's effective, ineffective or (my guess) somewhere in between, it's not "playing" and I just wanted to say that. But I didn't want to just snap at someone and go nyah nyah it's not it's not! I wanted to explain a bit so maybe Michele might see where I'm coming from on that.

 

[TheRealNoUser]

Yes, if only Archimedes, Alexander Graham Bell, Nicolaus Copernicus, Marie Curie, Charles Darwin, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, Michael Faraday, Benjamin Franklin, Galileo Galilei, Stephen Hawking, Edwin Hubble, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, and Nikola Tesla had known about the L. Ron Hubbard Clay Demo Study Tech they might have got past their M.U. and actually discovered something useful.

Instead they spent all day feeling bent, sort of spinny, sort of dead, bored, and exasperated.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Well, yanno, not like I think it's the be all and end all of study techniques. It's not. I mean, I sometimes found it helpful but that's about it. Your point is taken, my dear sir or madam.

 

[NoName]

And if only poor Marie Curie had known about Purif.

And you know if Steven Hawking could get those BT's to blow......

 

[Panda Termint]

And if only poor Marie Curie had known about Purif.

And you know if Steven Hawking could get those BT's to blow......

Scientology: it's not for everyone!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Well, it sure isn't for me!

 

[Michele_B]

I came here looking for some answers. I got a few, but I am basically coming away with frustration and disgust more than anything. You guys claim to be EX Scientologists but a majority of you still defend this bat shit crazy cult. Claire got all bent out of shape when I suggested that clay demos are playing with clay. I'm sorry. There is no fucking way that I am going to be forced or coerced or tricked or talked into doing anything I don't want to and that includes making clay images to explain what I understand. I don't give a shit what happened in my past life. David and I talked about this the other night. I told him that because he is so attached to the ideas of a Marxist, Satanic lunatic and so obsessed with "looking" at why he does things, that he cannot be in the now and STOP doing the things he does. He is trapped in the past. He also tries to feed me this bullshit that I create everything. The whole point is that believing that everything is created by an individual and to take responsibility for everything that I create only takes away one's power to create something different. I don't create things, I see things different. I might hate my job, but see it as lucky because there are many people out there that don't have jobs, and no matter how crappy my job may be, I can still provide for my family. Things are really not that bad. That feels so much better than saying "Well, I created this shitty job, so I have to take responsibility." Do you see how that attitude leaves you in a place unable to change anything?
Scientology is a concept born with the sole INTENT to enslave, to make people do things, anything that the fair leader or leaders want them to, even if this so called tech "works", it only does because it is doing exactly what it was intended to do, take your money and control you. That is IT. There is no enlightenment. There is no bridge to total freedom. There are no body thetans. There are no SP's. There was a paranoid schizophrenic who had a desire and a plan to enslave people, and he did and there is a man, DM who is evil and sadistic and gets pleasure out of torture, humiliation, and control of others. Who in the fuck would defend any of this? Why do you people defend this insanity! Some of you are really nice and seem to have abandoned completely, but some of you still talk your sciospeak, and defend this crippled, evil ideology. Why? Don't you understand that its crazy? Tell you what, pick up a copy of Das Capital by Carl Marx, and tell me if you see any similarities to LRH's writing. How about the Unibomber's manifesto? It is rambling. It is coming from the mind of someone mentally unstable. Get it? Put down your fucking E meters! Don't try and pick this stuff apart anymore! Scientology is a FRAUD! It is a SCAM! It is a LIE! All of it! Wake up people! Shit!

 

[NoName]

I went through a period of where I was so pissed off that I thought everything associated with Scno in even a tangential way was bad.

I agree that the Tech is meant to enslave, but I would ask in return that even if a broken clock is only right twice a day, does that mean that it can never be 11 o'clock because a broken clock is stuck at 11? Or that a clock can never be useful?

You believe in past lives, for example. Just because Scno does too, does that mean that belief in past lives is inherently wrong?

I think that's what Claire and I were getting at with the clay demos - the concept isn't inherently stupid just because LRH invented it. Speaking for myself only, I think that the application of clay demoing in Scno is WEIRD. But I can see where it may have had some useful application when I was failing out of multivariate calculus as an undergrad.

Again, with Dianetics I can speak for myself because that's all I ever did. It was plagiarized from a legitimate area of psychotherapy. Talking to an auditor - well how do you feel after calling your best friend and venting to him/her? It feels great! So is it really such a stretch that talking to an auditor would feel any differently from talking to any other compassionate person who is willing to listen? Of course not!

I don't think that the vast majority of people on this board still believe in any of it. Some of the concepts associated like Scno, that exteriorization is possible, that past lives are real, etc., don't become false because a pathological liar plagiarized them into his verbal diarrhea.

To the extent that the vast majority of the people on this board defend Scno, it's to rationalize our being sucked in or ever finding it attractive. There are a few who still want to do their bridge in the Freezone, and I feel the same way about them as you do. But it's their right, and they're not being harmed as badly in the Freezone, so I'm glad they are FZ instead of in.

My two cents on the whole thing, for what is is worth.

 

[Oneflewover]

@ Michelle: If they announce a remake or sequel to "Network" you should try out. That was a pretty good rant.

 

[Gottabrain]

I came here looking for some answers. I got a few, but I am basically coming away with frustration and disgust more than anything. You guys claim to be EX Scientologists but a majority of you still defend this bat shit crazy cult. Claire got all bent out of shape when I suggested that clay demos are playing with clay.

You go girl! I'm with you 100%! Scientology is a batshit crazy cult and you are absolutely right.

Claire really is blonde, btw. Clay demos really are just making things out of clay. Don't even try to think it's anything different, Michele, that's the whole weird Scn thing and you don't need that.

I'm sorry. There is no fucking way that I am going to be forced or coerced or tricked or talked into doing anything I don't want to and that includes making clay images to explain what I understand. I don't give a shit what happened in my past life. David ... is trapped in the past. He also tries to feed me this bullshit that I create everything. The whole point is that believing that everything is created by an individual and to take responsibility for everything that I create only takes away one's power to create something different. I don't create things, I see things different.

I might hate my job, but see it as lucky because there are many people out there that don't have jobs, and no matter how crappy my job may be, I can still provide for my family. Things are really not that bad. That feels so much better than saying "Well, I created this shitty job, so I have to take responsibility." Do you see how that attitude leaves you in a place unable to change anything?

Oh yes I do. OH YES I DO! You're the sane one, Michele.

Good for you refusing to do stupid clay demos and good for you refusing to get sucked into his Scientology cult-think! As you should! You see things for what they really are, you are not all caught up and swept away in delusion.

As far as his stupid comments about creating things, hey, someone wrote a tremendous post on another site to me about what Power is. It's good stuff, real stuff that normal people like you and me think that deal with real life - and you can tell David this next time he talks that Scn doubletalk with you:

"When power is used by the person it is work or purposeful action.
When power is used by one person against another it is force.

A basic axiom for me is all human action is purposeful. We act in order to achieve an end or goal. But if my actions are thwarted by another, then my ability to live my life is constricted by that much. We all know how frustrating it can be to be inexplicably thwarted in a goal by some rule or regulation that makes no sense and is enforced without thought. ("She brought a butter knife to school. Knives are forbidden, therefore she will be suspended for three days. A rule is a rule after all.")

I use my power, that is my ability to act on my highest purpose, to take actions that I hope will result in an end, such as cooking dinner or inventing the light bulb.

If I want to do something but another doesn't want me to do it, he has two methods available to stop me. One, he can use persuasion and reason, appeal to my humanity, whatever verbal means he can summon to convince me of the wrongness of my intended action.

Two, he can use physical means, ie, actual physical power. We talk of the power of speech, but we understand that to be an appeal to reason. We understand that physical power used against a person is force.

If his power of persuasion fails, then he has two choices. Leave me to live my life and let me suffer the consequences, or use power to stop me. At that point you see that power now means political power, not personal power.

My other basic axiom is that you don't initiate the use of force, so he would be wrong to use physical force to stop me.

None of this means I can't submit myself willingly. “I'll be here every morning at 7am, Monday through Friday.” But if I don't want to show up for work the boss can't come get me and force me to work, all he can do is persuade me to return (and why would he) or fire me. So our power cannot be given up except through an act of will, in the same manner that I can sign over power of attorney to someone, but I can also rescind it at any time.

Adhocrat"

Hope you liked that one, Michele. It's NOT Scientology. That's real life, that's what power really is, it's not some supernatural voodoo or making make believe things in clay. You can either influence someone or not, physically do something or not. There's nothing more to it.

Scientology is a concept born with the sole INTENT to enslave, to make people do things, anything that the fair leader or leaders want them to, even if this so called tech "works", it only does because it is doing exactly what it was intended to do, take your money and control you. That is IT. There is no enlightenment. There is no bridge to total freedom. There are no body thetans. There are no SP's. There was a paranoid schizophrenic who had a desire and a plan to enslave people, and he did and there is a man, DM who is evil and sadistic and gets pleasure out of torture, humiliation, and control of others. Who in the fuck would defend any of this? Why do you people defend this insanity! Some of you are really nice and seem to have abandoned completely, but some of you still talk your sciospeak, and defend this crippled, evil ideology. Why? Don't you understand that its crazy? Tell you what, pick up a copy of Das Capital by Carl Marx, and tell me if you see any similarities to LRH's writing. How about the Unibomber's manifesto? It is rambling. It is coming from the mind of someone mentally unstable. Get it? Put down your fucking E meters! Don't try and pick this stuff apart anymore! Scientology is a FRAUD! It is a SCAM! It is a LIE! All of it! Wake up people! Shit!

You're a smart woman. You have a good mind. Yes, it is a fraud and a scam. Now don't complicate your life or make it any harder than it is already. Do normal things, have fun, go out with your friends and be a real person and forget about all the hokey stuff. You're alright in my book.

Sheila

 

[uniquemand]

I went through a period of where I was so pissed off that I thought everything associated with Scno in even a tangential way was bad.

I agree that the Tech is meant to enslave, but I would ask in return that even if a broken clock is only right twice a day, does that mean that it can never be 11 o'clock because a broken clock is stuck at 11? Or that a clock can never be useful?

You believe in past lives, for example. Just because Scno does too, does that mean that belief in past lives is inherently wrong?

I think that's what Claire and I were getting at with the clay demos - the concept isn't inherently stupid just because LRH invented it. Speaking for myself only, I think that the application of clay demoing in Scno is WEIRD. But I can see where it may have had some useful application when I was failing out of multivariate calculus as an undergrad.

Again, with Dianetics I can speak for myself because that's all I ever did. It was plagiarized from a legitimate area of psychotherapy. Talking to an auditor - well how do you feel after calling your best friend and venting to him/her? It feels great! So is it really such a stretch that talking to an auditor would feel any differently from talking to any other compassionate person who is willing to listen? Of course not!

I don't think that the vast majority of people on this board still believe in any of it. Some of the concepts associated like Scno, that exteriorization is possible, that past lives are real, etc., don't become false because a pathological liar plagiarized them into his verbal diarrhea.

To the extent that the vast majority of the people on this board defend Scno, it's to rationalize our being sucked in or ever finding it attractive. There are a few who still want to do their bridge in the Freezone, and I feel the same way about them as you do. But it's their right, and they're not being harmed as badly in the Freezone, so I'm glad they are FZ instead of in.

My two cents on the whole thing, for what is is worth.

I agree, completely. Please see the thread "Understanding the Valid Antecedents of Scientology" http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?23549-Understanding-valid-antecedents-of-Scientology

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Scientology: it's not for everyone!

True. It's really for not fit for human consumption.

 

[uniquemand]

True. It's really for not fit for human consumption.

Not without training in recognition of logical fallacies, no.

Taxonomy of Logical Fallacies

 

[TG1]

I came here looking for some answers. I got a few, but I am basically coming away with frustration and disgust more than anything. You guys claim to be EX Scientologists but a majority of you still defend this bat shit crazy cult. Claire got all bent out of shape when I suggested that clay demos are playing with clay. I'm sorry. There is no fucking way that I am going to be forced or coerced or tricked or talked into doing anything I don't want to and that includes making clay images to explain what I understand. I don't give a shit what happened in my past life. David and I talked about this the other night. I told him that because he is so attached to the ideas of a Marxist, Satanic lunatic and so obsessed with "looking" at why he does things, that he cannot be in the now and STOP doing the things he does. He is trapped in the past. He also tries to feed me this bullshit that I create everything. The whole point is that believing that everything is created by an individual and to take responsibility for everything that I create only takes away one's power to create something different. I don't create things, I see things different. I might hate my job, but see it as lucky because there are many people out there that don't have jobs, and no matter how crappy my job may be, I can still provide for my family. Things are really not that bad. That feels so much better than saying "Well, I created this shitty job, so I have to take responsibility." Do you see how that attitude leaves you in a place unable to change anything?
Scientology is a concept born with the sole INTENT to enslave, to make people do things, anything that the fair leader or leaders want them to, even if this so called tech "works", it only does because it is doing exactly what it was intended to do, take your money and control you. That is IT. There is no enlightenment. There is no bridge to total freedom. There are no body thetans. There are no SP's. There was a paranoid schizophrenic who had a desire and a plan to enslave people, and he did and there is a man, DM who is evil and sadistic and gets pleasure out of torture, humiliation, and control of others. Who in the fuck would defend any of this? Why do you people defend this insanity! Some of you are really nice and seem to have abandoned completely, but some of you still talk your sciospeak, and defend this crippled, evil ideology. Why? Don't you understand that its crazy? Tell you what, pick up a copy of Das Capital by Carl Marx, and tell me if you see any similarities to LRH's writing. How about the Unibomber's manifesto? It is rambling. It is coming from the mind of someone mentally unstable. Get it? Put down your fucking E meters! Don't try and pick this stuff apart anymore! Scientology is a FRAUD! It is a SCAM! It is a LIE! All of it! Wake up people! Shit!

Jeez, girl. Why so angry?

Oh, wait. YOU'RE the one who's living with a Scientologist.

Never mind.

TG1

 

[Claire Swazey]

I came here looking for some answers. I got a few, but I am basically coming away with frustration and disgust more than anything. You guys claim to be EX Scientologists but a majority of you still defend this bat shit crazy cult. Claire got all bent out of shape when I suggested that clay demos are playing with clay. I'm sorry. There is no fucking way that I am going to be forced or coerced or tricked or talked into doing anything I don't want to and that includes making clay images to explain what I understand. I don't give a shit what happened in my past life. David and I talked about this the other night. I told him that because he is so attached to the ideas of a Marxist, Satanic lunatic and so obsessed with "looking" at why he does things, that he cannot be in the now and STOP doing the things he does. He is trapped in the past. He also tries to feed me this bullshit that I create everything. The whole point is that believing that everything is created by an individual and to take responsibility for everything that I create only takes away one's power to create something different. I don't create things, I see things different. I might hate my job, but see it as lucky because there are many people out there that don't have jobs, and no matter how crappy my job may be, I can still provide for my family. Things are really not that bad. That feels so much better than saying "Well, I created this shitty job, so I have to take responsibility." Do you see how that attitude leaves you in a place unable to change anything?
Scientology is a concept born with the sole INTENT to enslave, to make people do things, anything that the fair leader or leaders want them to, even if this so called tech "works", it only does because it is doing exactly what it was intended to do, take your money and control you. That is IT. There is no enlightenment. There is no bridge to total freedom. There are no body thetans. There are no SP's. There was a paranoid schizophrenic who had a desire and a plan to enslave people, and he did and there is a man, DM who is evil and sadistic and gets pleasure out of torture, humiliation, and control of others. Who in the fuck would defend any of this? Why do you people defend this insanity! Some of you are really nice and seem to have abandoned completely, but some of you still talk your sciospeak, and defend this crippled, evil ideology. Why? Don't you understand that its crazy? Tell you what, pick up a copy of Das Capital by Carl Marx, and tell me if you see any similarities to LRH's writing. How about the Unibomber's manifesto? It is rambling. It is coming from the mind of someone mentally unstable. Get it? Put down your fucking E meters! Don't try and pick this stuff apart anymore! Scientology is a FRAUD! It is a SCAM! It is a LIE! All of it! Wake up people! Shit!

I wasn't bent out of shape. I think my commentary was pretty mild. I was just addressing something you posted.

I'd never suggest that anyone do Scn or do clay demos, and, indeed, have not done so.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Claire Swazey]

I went through a period of where I was so pissed off that I thought everything associated with Scno in even a tangential way was bad.

I agree that the Tech is meant to enslave, but I would ask in return that even if a broken clock is only right twice a day, does that mean that it can never be 11 o'clock because a broken clock is stuck at 11? Or that a clock can never be useful?

You believe in past lives, for example. Just because Scno does too, does that mean that belief in past lives is inherently wrong?

I think that's what Claire and I were getting at with the clay demos - the concept isn't inherently stupid just because LRH invented it. Speaking for myself only, I think that the application of clay demoing in Scno is WEIRD. But I can see where it may have had some useful application when I was failing out of multivariate calculus as an undergrad.

Again, with Dianetics I can speak for myself because that's all I ever did. It was plagiarized from a legitimate area of psychotherapy. Talking to an auditor - well how do you feel after calling your best friend and venting to him/her? It feels great! So is it really such a stretch that talking to an auditor would feel any differently from talking to any other compassionate person who is willing to listen? Of course not!

I don't think that the vast majority of people on this board still believe in any of it. Some of the concepts associated like Scno, that exteriorization is possible, that past lives are real, etc., don't become false because a pathological liar plagiarized them into his verbal diarrhea.

To the extent that the vast majority of the people on this board defend Scno, it's to rationalize our being sucked in or ever finding it attractive. There are a few who still want to do their bridge in the Freezone, and I feel the same way about them as you do. But it's their right, and they're not being harmed as badly in the Freezone, so I'm glad they are FZ instead of in.

My two cents on the whole thing, for what is is worth.

Agreed. And, as I've said, it's not the amazing be all and end all of all study techniques that the cult and Hubbard touted it to be.

Effective, ineffective, I just wanted to explain WHAT it was. It may be utter bullshit but those people aren't playing when they do clay demos.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Hold it second.

This is a place for EX SCIENTOLOGISTS - what the hell did you expect people on here to talk about? If I want to talk about football I talk on my home town team's chat boards - not here.

None of us here owe YOU a damned thing - so you might want to lose the attitude that you have everything right and we are just not listening/answering you in the way that you have decided you wish us to react.

People on here have their own positions and experiences - if you don't want to hear what people have to say then don't fucking post questions and then try to dictate how you are to be answered.

Believe it or not I sympathize with your upset and your frustrations - but those frustrations and upsets are not our fault so railing at people on here is neither fair nor justified.

I came here looking for some answers. I got a few, but I am basically coming away with frustration and disgust more than anything. You guys claim to be EX Scientologists but a majority of you still defend this bat shit crazy cult. Claire got all bent out of shape when I suggested that clay demos are playing with clay. I'm sorry. There is no fucking way that I am going to be forced or coerced or tricked or talked into doing anything I don't want to and that includes making clay images to explain what I understand. I don't give a shit what happened in my past life. David and I talked about this the other night. I told him that because he is so attached to the ideas of a Marxist, Satanic lunatic and so obsessed with "looking" at why he does things, that he cannot be in the now and STOP doing the things he does. He is trapped in the past. He also tries to feed me this bullshit that I create everything. The whole point is that believing that everything is created by an individual and to take responsibility for everything that I create only takes away one's power to create something different. I don't create things, I see things different. I might hate my job, but see it as lucky because there are many people out there that don't have jobs, and no matter how crappy my job may be, I can still provide for my family. Things are really not that bad. That feels so much better than saying "Well, I created this shitty job, so I have to take responsibility." Do you see how that attitude leaves you in a place unable to change anything?
Scientology is a concept born with the sole INTENT to enslave, to make people do things, anything that the fair leader or leaders want them to, even if this so called tech "works", it only does because it is doing exactly what it was intended to do, take your money and control you. That is IT. There is no enlightenment. There is no bridge to total freedom. There are no body thetans. There are no SP's. There was a paranoid schizophrenic who had a desire and a plan to enslave people, and he did and there is a man, DM who is evil and sadistic and gets pleasure out of torture, humiliation, and control of others. Who in the fuck would defend any of this? Why do you people defend this insanity! Some of you are really nice and seem to have abandoned completely, but some of you still talk your sciospeak, and defend this crippled, evil ideology. Why? Don't you understand that its crazy? Tell you what, pick up a copy of Das Capital by Carl Marx, and tell me if you see any similarities to LRH's writing. How about the Unibomber's manifesto? It is rambling. It is coming from the mind of someone mentally unstable. Get it? Put down your fucking E meters! Don't try and pick this stuff apart anymore! Scientology is a FRAUD! It is a SCAM! It is a LIE! All of it! Wake up people! Shit!