I still don't get it with the Ideal Orgs

Spirited

Patron with Honors
Good question lakey,
NO, I don’t mean that endless tiers will be implemented before occupancy.
I meant that once the building is purchased then renovated etc, then there will be the next thing to have to donate for like say the library campaign for instance. The libraries are now apparently a 100% DONE with LRH books now in all libraries of earth which we know is not true. Most libraries are not carrying all the new books, but now there is a new campaign where the next donation push on that front is to get all lectures in the libraries. So that’s what I mean by endless ongoing regging for dono’s.

IMO it should only be 1 tier. Its supposedly one project. It should be “this is the project and this is the target #XX.
this is what it will cost for the building and this is what it will cost to get it set up. Totalling $XX amount.
It could have two targets to meet. First the building and once done then the set up. but the total will be $X amount. This is what the public should be told IMO from day one. Maybe the think is that if you present a huge target straight up it will overwhelm the public??????? I say when you are talking millions, give or take a few here or there, whats the difference? it’s all overwhelming for the local areas.
I don’t know if the ideal orgs overseas are occupied or not but here they are still apparently short of their financial targets to get the job done to move in. The $$ target seems to have changed over time and seems to have gone UP! But I cant remember the exact amounts on all that. Feral or one of those guys may know.
How it will unfold and whether they will move in etc, I don’t know at this stage. There is a thread in the Australian org watch section that talks about the Sydney building renos not even started yet even though they have enough money to start?? I don’t know why that is.
And just to contradict myself, there should actually be NO pure donations pushes at all as it is criminal exchange per the old man himself in “conditions of exchange” amongst a heap of other violations.

At the end of the day, If Dm was serious about clearing this planet and appearances were the key, then it wouldn’t take that much to clean an existing org up and get some new furnishings in etc to make it look good. It wouldn’t take millions. and then get the show on the road on delivering the tech ASAP, Especially if there is only a small window of opportunity to do so.
Looking at world statistics, the western world is only a small part of world population and Considering that 90% of world population is either living in third world conditions or have no money or access to an org, nor could ever afford to visit any of these building anyway, tells me that there is NO intention on clearing the planet at all and statistically it CAN’T be done with current prices or operating basis even if ideal orgs saga wasn’t in play and they actually had tech that worked to do so.
So Good question on what’s really going on? and why is the ideal org thing still being pushed at all? :confused2: the whole thing is nuts.

 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Spirited, you are a kindred Spirit!

Good question lakey,
NO, I don’t mean that endless tiers will be implemented before occupancy.
I meant that once the building is purchased then renovated etc, then there will be the next thing to have to donate for like say the library campaign for instance. The libraries are now apparently a 100% DONE with LRH books now in all libraries of earth which we know is not true. Most libraries are not carrying all the new books, but now there is a new campaign where the next donation push on that front is to get all lectures in the libraries. So that’s what I mean by endless ongoing regging for dono’s.

IMO it should only be 1 tier. Its supposedly one project. It should be “this is the project and this is the target #XX.
this is what it will cost for the building and this is what it will cost to get it set up. Totalling $XX amount.
It could have two targets to meet. First the building and once done then the set up. but the total will be $X amount. This is what the public should be told IMO from day one. Maybe the think is that if you present a huge target straight up it will overwhelm the public??????? I say when you are talking millions, give or take a few here or there, whats the difference? it’s all overwhelming for the local areas.
I don’t know if the ideal orgs overseas are occupied or not but here they are still apparently short of their financial targets to get the job done to move in. The $$ target seems to have changed over time and seems to have gone UP! But I cant remember the exact amounts on all that. Feral or one of those guys may know.
How it will unfold and whether they will move in etc, I don’t know at this stage. There is a thread in the Australian org watch section that talks about the Sydney building renos not even started yet even though they have enough money to start?? I don’t know why that is.
And just to contradict myself, there should actually be NO pure donations pushes at all as it is criminal exchange per the old man himself in “conditions of exchange” amongst a heap of other violations.

At the end of the day, If Dm was serious about clearing this planet and appearances were the key, then it wouldn’t take that much to clean an existing org up and get some new furnishings in etc to make it look good. It wouldn’t take millions. and then get the show on the road on delivering the tech ASAP, Especially if there is only a small window of opportunity to do so.
Looking at world statistics, the western world is only a small part of world population and Considering that 90% of world population is either living in third world conditions or have no money or access to an org, nor could ever afford to visit any of these building anyway, tells me that there is NO intention on clearing the planet at all and statistically it CAN’T be done with current prices or operating basis even if ideal orgs saga wasn’t in play and they actually had tech that worked to do so.
So Good question on what’s really going on? and why is the ideal org thing still being pushed at all? :confused2: the whole thing is nuts.


Spirited, you and I are kindred spirits and think a lot alike. I was born and grew up in Southern California but you Aussies and I tend to think alike. You have touched on so many excellent points that I don't know where to start my comments.

The biggest, most important remarks are near the end of your post and concern whether of not DM and the Church really have the goal of "Clearing the Planet." It is so obvious right from the outset that DM has absolutely no interest in pursuing that goal. Whatever he is doing, the activity is much much closer to runing a business than being a church.

DM does not follow basic Scientology policies. The steps he would have to take to move towards clearing the planet would be to start in non-existence and find a comm line. As you say, 90% of the world is to poor to ever find its way to an Ideal Org and if it did, 90% of the world, probably more like 97% would not be able to afford services. You could counter that DM wants to clear the planet from the top down, concentrate on getting wealthy celebrities first and then let the celebrities, as opinion leaders, bring in the others.. Maybe this is what he is doing and if so then things make more sense.

Even so, when you get to emergency, you need to promote, ECONOMIZE, change your operating basis and prepare to deliver. I have never seen anything run by DM go through this vital condition formula. They never ECONOMIZE. (the only area where they have always economized are in staff salaries,) THINK BIG IS PUSHED SO THAT ECONOMIZING IS NOT ALLOWED TO OCCUR. THEY NEVER MOVE ABOVE EMERGENCY AND A LONG TERM EMERGENCY IS DANGER AND FROM THERE THEY MOVE DOWN. SOUND FAMILIAR ?

Also, thanks for clearing up the multi tier concept. I, like you, think that the public should be told the combined purchase and furnishing phase prices right at the beginning. At least they would know what they are up against. DM and management try to apply a gradient approach by springing the furnishing phase on the public after the first phase has been achieved; as a result, phase 2 never gets done. They are so used to telling lies and half truths that they can not even properly apply the concept of doing something on a gradient.

Well thanks again for the clarification.
Lakey
 
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anon2487

Patron with Honors
...I was told once whilst having a discussion about the ideal org donation saga when it first started that it had to be done because people judge you by your "appearance" and if you want government officials or the OLs to come into your org and look around or do services, or even use your boardroom or facilities etc, that they would only reach if the premises matched their reality. and that the orgs in current state werent good enough in appearance to invite or attract the upstat OL public. pretty stupid thing to say considering how many of us have done services in the old orgs? what wre we? rubbish? According to that conversation, an organization is judged on how "wealthy" it looks. you cant invite the president to a shitty old building now can you?
I remember Marc Headley talking about the genesis that led up to Tom Cruise's infamous antics, and relaying DM's apparently disparaging comments about the state of most of the orgs at the time. I think the thinking was that he'd build orgs that'd tick the exact boxes you've listed, and use Tom Cruise's public profile to draw the crowds in...

If that is accurate, then I'd guess that the other benefits (tax, legal, etc.) were secondary, and the internal PR benefits ("proof of expansion" and so on) came after the fact (of the failure).

That it's carried on as it has, is probably nothing more than it being a pretty lucrative racket.
 

Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
Of course he knows that the stats on tech delivery and bodys in the shop are tragic but is operating on a fixed idea.
Again i think KV has some good points that fall in line with what i was told once.
I was told once whilst having a discussion about the ideal org donation saga when it first started that it had to be done because people judge you by your "appearance" and if you want government officials or the OLs to come into your org and look around or do services, or even use your boardroom or facilities etc, that they would only reach if the premises matched their reality. and that the orgs in current state werent good enough in appearance to invite or attract the upstat OL public. pretty stupid thing to say considering how many of us have done services in the old orgs? what wre we? rubbish? According to that conversation, an organization is judged on how "wealthy" it looks. you cant invite the president to a shitty old building now can you?

On the donations front, DM is a guy that has absolutely NO reality on the real world and what its like to live in it and work and earn money. He has lived in a scientology bubble all his life, paying himself a pretty good salary that others have brought into the organization, but has never had to get out in the real world and create it for himself.
IMO He doesnt see that regging the shit out of his parishioners is a problem because he is totally indoctrinated on the LRH stuff like money problems are just your "bank", "considerations" "counter intention", "being reasonable" etc blah blah and he really has the viewpoint that its the publics responsibility and duty to fork out.
Its all wrong but he has gone too far to turn around and do an about face now and say , sorry guys I was wrong and the new buildings strategy is not working. he has to be right!! He is the leader and is expected to know what he is doing. so the lie will perpetuate and its a case of "fake it till ya make it". it is all about appearance not products. :omg: thats my take on it but Who knows what he really thinks behind closed doors.


That sounds very accurate. And I want to point out that this is also creating a huge problem with finances. Because at the same time they're ignoring the current building, Scientiologists are falling off the lines. Part of it is the heavy donations.
So by the time the Org becomes Ideal, they just lost many of their public. In the mean time those same public are going to be more willing to look at their own experiences in Scientology.
This goes right along with what i had posted about Scientologists thinking the ideal orgs will fix all of Scientology's problems. :whistling:
 

Spirited

Patron with Honors
Lakey :happydance:

anon2487, I do agree that some of the orgs were pretty shitty, but the strategy clearly hasnt worked? and i agree.

IKTM, yes, public have been falling off and disappearing in large numbers as a result. But its a twofold lose too because these are "class 5" ideal orgs which means that they are losing their actual public as a lot of them are new or relatively new, or not done enough bridge etc to have a reality on why they need to donate for new buildings as such, and the OTs are falling off because they are the ones actually emptying out their pockets a lot of the time.... and they arent even class 5 public.:duh:
 
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dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
The reason ideal orgs are so interesting to me have more to do with legal considerations. I notice that these buildings are all owned by ad hoc corporations and not by Buidling Management Services. Why is that so? Given the value of these buildings, this is a pretty major shift in coporporate structure.

Good point Bird

Since a large amount of the funds that were used were obtained illegally through extortion (under duress, through coercion, undo influence) and financial subjugation then the new ownership sounds a whole lot like money laundering to me.
 

KnightVision

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good point Bird

Since a large amount of the funds that were used were obtained illegally through extortion (under duress, through coercion, undo influence) and financial subjugation then the new ownership sounds a whole lot like money laundering to me.

Oh Baby! You're not just 'getting hot'.... you're right on the nebula!


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 

fortymarriedandbalding

Patron with Honors
Here is my opinion for what it is worth.

DM has squirreled the tech and the fundraising and god knows what else. But by doing this he has stayed 100% loyal to the spirit of the un-squirreled tech.

LRH stumbled upon a few ideas and decided to make them his own. He wrap them in a bunch of fabricated evidence, and attached them to a series of unrealistic promises he knew he could not fulfil. He did this in order to sell some books and make some money.

As more and more people started following Dianetics, he realised there was more money and lots of power to be had. As people started to realise that the easily attainable benefits promised in Dianetics:MSMH were not forthcoming, despite many working quickly on 100% of all people LRH claimed to treat during his research, LRH had to squirrel his own tech in order to keep the money, power and adulation flowing his way. Luckily for him, he was source so his squirreling was not considered as such.

There was always another excuse for why the tech was not working and another solution that was going to bring in more dollars and keep people on line in search of that illusive carrot that was dangled just in front of their noses.

And the problems that needed addressing usually lay at the feet of those who were not achieving what was promised them or those in their direct surroundings. They were out ethics, PTS, counter purpose, had a MU, their auditor / case supervisor was not applying the tech correctly or whatever other excuses LRH could come up with to shift the blame away from him and his precious tech.

Of course new stuff was also made up and dangled as another carrot for his hungry followers. And the carrot was made of gold because spiritual salvation was now at stake. Achieving it would require complete dedication to LRH and, of course, lots and lots of money.

Well, now LRH is dead and gone, DM is playing the same game. He is just not nearly as good at it because he is not source (and maybe he believes in the greater goal to some degree).

Here is what is wrong and here is what we need to do about it, and it is going to cost you a lot of money.

The orgs are a big part of the problem as to why it is taking so long to clear the planet. We need to change them, and another big carrot is dangled in peples faces in the form of an Ideal Org. The wins they will deliver, particularly now we have fixed all those typesetting errors I found that LRH was too stupid to notice.

Now we have a big spacious building, so we need to renovate it. Now it needs to be furnished and then staff need to be trained or retrained. And then and then and then….

And when all this does not lead to full orgs it is the fault of the staff. They need to get their ethics in, get on purpose, solve those PTS problems etc. They need to redo this course or that course …..The blame can never lay at DMs feet, nor can the ideal orgs be called a bad idea in any way. Everything that goes wrong is the fault of some scientologist somewhere. The ideal org idea is as perfect as the tech.

LRH would be proud of him.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Nice Theory

Here is my opinion for what it is worth.

DM has squirreled the tech and the fundraising and god knows what else. But by doing this he has stayed 100% loyal to the spirit of the un-squirreled tech.

LRH stumbled upon a few ideas and decided to make them his own. He wrap them in a bunch of fabricated evidence, and attached them to a series of unrealistic promises he knew he could not fulfil. He did this in order to sell some books and make some money.

As more and more people started following Dianetics, he realised there was more money and lots of power to be had. As people started to realise that the easily attainable benefits promised in Dianetics:MSMH were not forthcoming, despite many working quickly on 100% of all people LRH claimed to treat during his research, LRH had to squirrel his own tech in order to keep the money, power and adulation flowing his way. Luckily for him, he was source so his squirreling was not considered as such.

There was always another excuse for why the tech was not working and another solution that was going to bring in more dollars and keep people on line in search of that illusive carrot that was dangled just in front of their noses.

And the problems that needed addressing usually lay at the feet of those who were not achieving what was promised them or those in their direct surroundings. They were out ethics, PTS, counter purpose, had a MU, their auditor / case supervisor was not applying the tech correctly or whatever other excuses LRH could come up with to shift the blame away from him and his precious tech.

Of course new stuff was also made up and dangled as another carrot for his hungry followers. And the carrot was made of gold because spiritual salvation was now at stake. Achieving it would require complete dedication to LRH and, of course, lots and lots of money.

Well, now LRH is dead and gone, DM is playing the same game. He is just not nearly as good at it because he is not source (and maybe he believes in the greater goal to some degree).

Here is what is wrong and here is what we need to do about it, and it is going to cost you a lot of money.

The orgs are a big part of the problem as to why it is taking so long to clear the planet. We need to change them, and another big carrot is dangled in peples faces in the form of an Ideal Org. The wins they will deliver, particularly now we have fixed all those typesetting errors I found that LRH was too stupid to notice.

Now we have a big spacious building, so we need to renovate it. Now it needs to be furnished and then staff need to be trained or retrained. And then and then and then….

And when all this does not lead to full orgs it is the fault of the staff. They need to get their ethics in, get on purpose, solve those PTS problems etc. They need to redo this course or that course …..The blame can never lay at DMs feet, nor can the ideal orgs be called a bad idea in any way. Everything that goes wrong is the fault of some scientologist somewhere. The ideal org idea is as perfect as the tech.

LRH would be proud of him.

You have come up with a nice theory, quite consistent and I think you have hit on many truths while writing your post. I want to throw in my two cents in an effort to flesh out your theory.

!. IN THE BEGINNING - I think the young Ron had a goal to figure out the riddles of life. At the beginning he believed that the professors in the Universities pretty much had things figured out themselves but maybe he could make some new discovery or put some new twist on their work which would gain him some fame and some honestly earned and needed money.

2. The young Ron wanted to smash his way into the history books so that people would be speaking his name long after he was gone. He had an inner need to unravel mysteries and also the ability and need to write. Earning money, though nice, probably was not his main driving goal at this time.

3. At George Washington University in 1931-32. he spent more time trying to unravel life's mysteries than he did studying his curriculum in Engineering, a field imposed on him by his Father. He quickly found out that the Professors at the University not only did not know the answers to life's riddles but that they did not want to know, not really. This was his cue to depart the University, never to return.

4. He gained some fame and a little money, writing, and continuously worked on his lifelong passion of solving the riddle of life. In 1938 this culminated with writing his unpublished manuscript entitled "Excalibur" His family was of no interest to him to speak of and he would have begun writing a popular book such as Dianetics at that time but he was lacking in knowledge and besides, World War II came along and he was called to serve.

5. At the end of World War II, he was in Oak Knoll Naval hospital and was able to access their medical and psychiatric libraries, posing as a Doctor, and was also able to improve his knowledge of mental counseling techniques by practicing on wounded ex servicemen.

6. Now, he was ready to publish his findings and begin the process of smashing his name into history. HE DID NOT EXPECT A BIG PUBLIC SUCCESS WITH HIS FIRST BOOK. The publisher tooled up to only produce a run of 6,000 books. He probably hoped that at least 5,000 would be sold so he would not look like a fool. The book would be sort of a self help manual and a little bit of an effort to get him some scientific credibility since he could list it on his resume' . The amount of money he would have made is peanuts.

7. The book's success was A BOLT FROM THE BLUE, an unexpected sell out and racked up 150,000 sales. His name appeared in Walter Winchell's radio show and news columns and he was the "toast of the town" and large amounts of money began flowing in and study goups sprang up.

This type of story happens a lot in America, usually, the author of such a book becomes well known for a year or so and makes a good sum of money on the book. The phenomena started by the book blows over and the person often tries a follow up book which doesn't usually do well and then just returns to his ordinary life much richer and better known than before.

This is where Hubbard parted company with almost all other people who experienced his meteoric rise to fame. From there on, the story played out pretty much as you state it.
Lakey
 
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