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I was thinking about this...

juicycef

Patron
Many processes have an EP which is not known to the PC. Such info is guarded somewhat from the PC. I am currently being run on clay table processing - PLEASE, DO NOT TELL ME THE EP EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT!! - I am really trying to figure out my own way in/out of Scientology. But, the fact that such info is held from the PC does seem to indicate that some processes, anyway, are not a scam, but are actually run to a certain definite point. Apparently, I'm not there yet, but its going well so far. I am enjoying playing with the clay. I've written up a few wins, even had a minor ARC break b/c I felt I was being overrun on the process, but apparently I still haven't manifested the EP. So, we'll keep plugging and see what happens.

There seems so many things in SCN that are so non workable, but other indications seem to show that it's heart is in the right place and results are available to be had legitimately, despite the cost. Its quite a conundrum to solve this riddle.

Also, I am curious from the trained auditors on here if it is policy (as opposed to merely practice) to tell the PC little snippets of info about delays or what is REALLY going on, etc? For example, in the little auditing I've been a PC in, it seems if something is happening regarding my folder, I will be told just vagueries and that it'll just be 2 minutes. 2 minutes goes by, and it'll be another 2 minutes. "OK, but I've got to be out of here in 5 minutes", says me. "OK, hang tight for 5 minutes and we'll be able to tell you more". Me - "Alright." 5 minutes later, "So, whats up?" "Oh, go ahead and leave and we'll see you tomorrow".

Or today, I showed up at 9:30am as I was told to do. My auditor wasn't ready. I am not keen on wasting my time, I have A LOT on my plate and sitting an hour watching the clock wind by is not acceptable to me, especially considering the Auditor's Code says something about keeping your appointments. Anyway, every query I gave for the hour I sat there was met with more vagueries and attempts to make me just go away. The sups - 2 of them - seemed very "withholdy". I don't mind if there is a delay, I understand that I am not the only one in the building, but at least tell me the scoop so I can be part of the team. I was just curious is there is policy on keeping the PC in the dark about things like this.
 
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nozeno

Gold Meritorious Patron
Many processes have an EP which is not known to the PC. Such info is guarded somewhat from the PC. I am currently being run on clay table processing - PLEASE, DO NOT TELL ME THE EP EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT!! - I am really trying to figure out my own way in/out of Scientology. But, the fact that such info is held from the PC does seem to indicate that some processes, anyway, are not a scam, but are actually run to a certain definite point. Apparently, I'm not there yet, but its going well so far. I am enjoying playing with the clay. I've written up a few wins, even had a minor ARC break b/c I felt I was being overrun on the process, but apparently I still haven't manifested the EP. So, we'll keep plugging and see what happens.

There seems so many things in SCN that are so non workable, but other indications seem to show that it's heart is in the right place and results are available to be had legitimately, despite the cost. Its quite a conundrum to solve this riddle.

I have to tell you. This is the EP

gumby2.jpg
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Many processes have an EP which is not known to the PC. Such info is guarded somewhat from the PC. I am currently being run on clay table processing - PLEASE, DO NOT TELL ME THE EP EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT!! - I am really trying to figure out my own way in/out of Scientology. But, the fact that such info is held from the PC does seem to indicate that some processes, anyway, are not a scam, but are actually run to a certain definite point. Apparently, I'm not there yet, but its going well so far. I am enjoying playing with the clay. I've written up a few wins, even had a minor ARC break b/c I felt I was being overrun on the process, but apparently I still haven't manifested the EP. So, we'll keep plugging and see what happens.There seems so many things in SCN that are so non workable, but other indications seem to show that it's heart is in the right place and results are available to be had legitimately, despite the cost. Its quite a conundrum to solve this riddle.

Curious...why did you decide to post tech questions to EX Scientologists? Where are you doing your services, at a CoS location? FZ? Independent?

If I was studying a religion seriously, I find it extremely difficult imagining myself locating a website of former members and asking them about my religion.

What's up?
 

IMMORTAL

Patron Meritorious
Curious...why did you decide to post tech questions to EX Scientologists? Where are you doing your services, at a CoS location? FZ? Independent?

If I was studying a religion seriously, I find it extremely difficult imagining myself locating a website of former members and asking them about my religion.

What's up?

^^^^ THIS ^^^^
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Go to an independant Scientologist or the freezone and that will handle the cost.

Give up scientology all together and that will handle the conundrum.

I have seen many a pc overun on clay table processing.

IMO, that's because there is no fixed EP. You will over run it because you will not state Ron's EP but will have your own which will not be understood by the Sup.

That will mean you will have to go to review at your own expense and that will be costly. The review auditor will run a correction list on youand you will have some kind of cognition and have VGI's so they will send you back to finish.

Some time later you will still not be certain you aquired the EP. This may or may not be a problem for you, but it will happen.
Many processes have an EP which is not known to the PC. Such info is guarded somewhat from the PC. I am currently being run on clay table processing - PLEASE, DO NOT TELL ME THE EP EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT!! - I am really trying to figure out my own way in/out of Scientology. But, the fact that such info is held from the PC does seem to indicate that some processes, anyway, are not a scam, but are actually run to a certain definite point. Apparently, I'm not there yet, but its going well so far. I am enjoying playing with the clay. I've written up a few wins, even had a minor ARC break b/c I felt I was being overrun on the process, but apparently I still haven't manifested the EP. So, we'll keep plugging and see what happens.

There seems so many things in SCN that are so non workable, but other indications seem to show that it's heart is in the right place and results are available to be had legitimately, despite the cost. Its quite a conundrum to solve this riddle.

Also, I am curious from the trained auditors on here if it is policy (as opposed to merely practice) to tell the PC little snippets of info about delays or what is REALLY going on, etc? For example, in the little auditing I've been a PC in, it seems if something is happening regarding my folder, I will be told just vagueries and that it'll just be 2 minutes. 2 minutes goes by, and it'll be another 2 minutes. "OK, but I've got to be out of here in 5 minutes", says me. "OK, hang tight for 5 minutes and we'll be able to tell you more". Me - "Alright." 5 minutes later, "So, whats up?" "Oh, go ahead and leave and we'll see you tomorrow".

Or today, I showed up at 9:30am as I was told to do. My auditor wasn't ready. I am not keen on wasting my time, I have A LOT on my plate and sitting an hour watching the clock wind by is not acceptable to me, especially considering the Auditor's Code says something about keeping your appointments. Anyway, every query I gave for the hour I sat there was met with more vagueries and attempts to make me just go away. The sups - 2 of them - seemed very "withholdy". I don't mind if there is a delay, I understand that I am not the only one in the building, but at least tell me the scoop so I can be part of the team. I was just curious is there is policy on keeping the PC in the dark about things like this.
 

juicycef

Patron
Curious...why did you decide to post tech questions to EX Scientologists? Where are you doing your services, at a CoS location? FZ? Independent?

If I was studying a religion seriously, I find it extremely difficult imagining myself locating a website of former members and asking them about my religion.

What's up?

This is a good question. I posted my story about a week ago, you can review it if you wish, just do a search. I am not an ex scientologist, but I am observant enough to see the flaws in the church and to disagree with the tech that every anti scientologist has crimes punishable by law that they don't want discovered. I call BS to that notion.

I actually find this site somewhat interesting. I am FULLY capable of reading this info and labeling it as someone's viewpoint without going the effect of it unless I agree with the viewpoint. To me, the idea of prohibiting myself from viewing anything against Scientology under the false (I believe) notion that I am going to go PTS is asinine. I've lurked this board for a couple weeks now and have more or less weeded out those who I approximate as full of crap and those who have legitimate gripes that coincide with things that I have seen.

What I want is the TRUTH. I am trying to arrive at this myself. I see a lot of good in Scientology. Most of the people at the churches are top notch folks. I thoroughly like many of the people at my church and I believe their hearts are in the right place. I've had some minor wins in SCN, some interesting viewpoints have emerged as a result. However, much of the tech has holes in it, in my opinion and some of it is just flat out WRONG from my current perspective. I cannot reconcile the high cost of it, the constant hard selling, the constant obsessive inflow of promo mail to ALL of my comm lines despite repeated attempts to have them bring it down a notch. I see people on the other side of the bridge and I see very little that I am envious of.

But, I do see basic goodness (I think) and smart people and people who want to help. Much of the data does simplify life and make it easier to live.

So, I find this board interesting in my attempt to figure out what I plan to do long term about my involvement with SCN. I respect the opinions of others who have gotten further into this than I have. I've heard the wins of the "ins" and I'm absorbing the viewpoint of those who are "out".

If the church has a problem with that, screw them. I can run my own mind and choose to see what I want to see. Any demands on their part to control what I am looking at would tend to sway me further from the church. If they can do what they say they can do, the very results of it should speak for themselves. Sell someone a top notch car, the salesman shouldn't have to tell the buyer to NOT look at any other the brands. The quality of the vehicle should suffice to prevent one from looking at other brands if they KNOW the one they have is great.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Randomly, by the way: unless the auditor directly set the appointment with you, it is not an auditors code violation. Normally on a clay table, the sup would set the schedule.

So if there is correction or training needed on the auditor or supervisor, you get to wait while they figure it out.

It is odd to ask a bunch of exes for information about this... Talk to your supervisor or something.
 

juicycef

Patron
It is odd to ask a bunch of exes for information about this... Talk to your supervisor or something.

Maybe you are right. But, I would hope that despite the label "ex", that those with opinions would still state them in a factual way rather than a skewed way just to prove their rightness for getting out. Those with rational viewpoints are who I want to read, ex or not.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
I gave you an honest opinion.

But you will have to go through it if you want to know if I'm right or the church.
Maybe you are right. But, I would hope that despite the label "ex", that those with opinions would still state them in a factual way rather than a skewed way just to prove their rightness for getting out. Those with rational viewpoints are who I want to read, ex or not.
 

FoTi

Crusader
Many processes have an EP which is not known to the PC. Such info is guarded somewhat from the PC. I am currently being run on clay table processing - PLEASE, DO NOT TELL ME THE EP EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT!! - I am really trying to figure out my own way in/out of Scientology. But, the fact that such info is held from the PC does seem to indicate that some processes, anyway, are not a scam, but are actually run to a certain definite point. Apparently, I'm not there yet, but its going well so far. I am enjoying playing with the clay. I've written up a few wins, even had a minor ARC break b/c I felt I was being overrun on the process, but apparently I still haven't manifested the EP. So, we'll keep plugging and see what happens.

There seems so many things in SCN that are so non workable, but other indications seem to show that it's heart is in the right place and results are available to be had legitimately, despite the cost. Its quite a conundrum to solve this riddle.

Also, I am curious from the trained auditors on here if it is policy (as opposed to merely practice) to tell the PC little snippets of info about delays or what is REALLY going on, etc? For example, in the little auditing I've been a PC in, it seems if something is happening regarding my folder, I will be told just vagueries and that it'll just be 2 minutes. 2 minutes goes by, and it'll be another 2 minutes. "OK, but I've got to be out of here in 5 minutes", says me. "OK, hang tight for 5 minutes and we'll be able to tell you more". Me - "Alright." 5 minutes later, "So, whats up?" "Oh, go ahead and leave and we'll see you tomorrow".

Or today, I showed up at 9:30am as I was told to do. My auditor wasn't ready. I am not keen on wasting my time, I have A LOT on my plate and sitting an hour watching the clock wind by is not acceptable to me, especially considering the Auditor's Code says something about keeping your appointments. Anyway, every query I gave for the hour I sat there was met with more vagueries and attempts to make me just go away. The sups - 2 of them - seemed very "withholdy". I don't mind if there is a delay, I understand that I am not the only one in the building, but at least tell me the scoop so I can be part of the team. I was just curious is there is policy on keeping the PC in the dark about things like this.

Maybe you should ask the staff at the org where you are receiving services whether there is any policy on these things. Or if you already know that there is policy and it is being violated, then look up how to write "Knowledge Reports" and reports on "Things That Shouldn't Be", and write up reports on the outpoints, and see what happens.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Sure, Scientology feels good when you first go in.

It's roomy and comfortable enough for you to have your own thoughts.

That's right where Scientology wants you--thinking that you are in control.

It's not until you decide to withdrawl or pull out that you will get the forbidden cognition.

finger-trap.jpg

 

juicycef

Patron
Thanks for some of the replies here. We'll see what happens.

BTW, I watched the entire 2 hour Jason Beghe interview and I saw a very rational person with some very valid points. The only logical way around some of his points is to a) rationalize and justify by just quoting more tech or b) not ising what he had to say.

If I listen to my father, I get one viewpoint. If I listen to my mother, I get an entirely different viewpoint. I will admit that my dad appears higher tone than my mom. But this could be because the promise of the bridge and the game of it gives him something to do.

The ultimate answer for me lies with my viewpoint, but I am still figuring that out.
 

Cherished

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hi juicy. Glad you're enjoying playing with clay.

I don't follow your logic. Having a pre-determined EP (presumably a cognition) doesn't show anything about whether or not the process is valid.
 

Outethicsofficer

Silver Meritorious Patron
This is a good question. I posted my story about a week ago, you can review it if you wish, just do a search. I am not an ex scientologist, but I am observant enough to see the flaws in the church and to disagree with the tech that every anti scientologist has crimes punishable by law that they don't want discovered. I call BS to that notion.

I actually find this site somewhat interesting. I am FULLY capable of reading this info and labeling it as someone's viewpoint without going the effect of it unless I agree with the viewpoint. To me, the idea of prohibiting myself from viewing anything against Scientology under the false (I believe) notion that I am going to go PTS is asinine. I've lurked this board for a couple weeks now and have more or less weeded out those who I approximate as full of crap and those who have legitimate gripes that coincide with things that I have seen.

What I want is the TRUTH. I am trying to arrive at this myself. I see a lot of good in Scientology. Most of the people at the churches are top notch folks. I thoroughly like many of the people at my church and I believe their hearts are in the right place. I've had some minor wins in SCN, some interesting viewpoints have emerged as a result. However, much of the tech has holes in it, in my opinion and some of it is just flat out WRONG from my current perspective. I cannot reconcile the high cost of it, the constant hard selling, the constant obsessive inflow of promo mail to ALL of my comm lines despite repeated attempts to have them bring it down a notch. I see people on the other side of the bridge and I see very little that I am envious of.

But, I do see basic goodness (I think) and smart people and people who want to help. Much of the data does simplify life and make it easier to live.

So, I find this board interesting in my attempt to figure out what I plan to do long term about my involvement with SCN. I respect the opinions of others who have gotten further into this than I have. I've heard the wins of the "ins" and I'm absorbing the viewpoint of those who are "out".

If the church has a problem with that, screw them. I can run my own mind and choose to see what I want to see. Any demands on their part to control what I am looking at would tend to sway me further from the church. If they can do what they say they can do, the very results of it should speak for themselves. Sell someone a top notch car, the salesman shouldn't have to tell the buyer to NOT look at any other the brands. The quality of the vehicle should suffice to prevent one from looking at other brands if they KNOW the one they have is great.

Nicely put but in the end completely unworkable, running your own mind has limited workability in the current church. Sooner or later you will discover the EP for that too.
I did and found myself here as an Ex.

Good luck on your quest, sounds like you will bounce out of the church quicker than I did.

James
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
"There seems so many things in SCN that are so non workable........."

Yeah....like "The Bridge to Total Freedom" that the CoS is selling for about a quarter-million dollars. Seems you've observed this with your own eyes per your own observations about OT's you've met, including your father. (as you related in your original post on this board)

".....but other indications seem to show that it's heart is in the right place....."

It's HEART is in the right place?? :omg:
I've never heard anyone on this board before use the word "heart" in conjunction with the CoS, an organization responsible for ruining thousands of lives. You may want to read some stories on this message board.

".......and results are available to be had legitimately, despite the cost."

:confused2:
This seems to contradict YOUR observations you've related here on this board.
You didn't see anything special in the people that were at the higher end of the bridge after they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to get there.

Its quite a conundrum to solve this riddle.

Some would say that the solution would be to go to the Free Zone to do your services there. In fact, it sounds as though you are helping them with a promotional campaign. :yes:

..
 

Arthur Dent

Silver Meritorious Patron
juicycef.... If the church has a problem with that said:
Uh...they won't have a problem with it unless they know your're doing it! Do they know? No? Why not? Try them out! You will stay in for as long as you don't really look. How can anyone support an organization with the abuses they perpetrate? You seem to want to look. The candy is good at first.
 
Many processes have an EP which is not known to the PC. Such info is guarded somewhat from the PC. I am currently being run on clay table processing - PLEASE, DO NOT TELL ME THE EP EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT!! - I am really trying to figure out my own way in/out of Scientology. But, the fact that such info is held from the PC does seem to indicate that some processes, anyway, are not a scam, but are actually run to a certain definite point. Apparently, I'm not there yet, but its going well so far. I am enjoying playing with the clay. I've written up a few wins, even had a minor ARC break b/c I felt I was being overrun on the process, but apparently I still haven't manifested the EP. So, we'll keep plugging and see what happens.

There seems so many things in SCN that are so non workable, but other indications seem to show that it's heart is in the right place and results are available to be had legitimately, despite the cost. Its quite a conundrum to solve this riddle.

Also, I am curious from the trained auditors on here if it is policy (as opposed to merely practice) to tell the PC little snippets of info about delays or what is REALLY going on, etc? For example, in the little auditing I've been a PC in, it seems if something is happening regarding my folder, I will be told just vagueries and that it'll just be 2 minutes. 2 minutes goes by, and it'll be another 2 minutes. "OK, but I've got to be out of here in 5 minutes", says me. "OK, hang tight for 5 minutes and we'll be able to tell you more". Me - "Alright." 5 minutes later, "So, whats up?" "Oh, go ahead and leave and we'll see you tomorrow".

Or today, I showed up at 9:30am as I was told to do. My auditor wasn't ready. I am not keen on wasting my time, I have A LOT on my plate and sitting an hour watching the clock wind by is not acceptable to me, especially considering the Auditor's Code says something about keeping your appointments. Anyway, every query I gave for the hour I sat there was met with more vagueries and attempts to make me just go away. The sups - 2 of them - seemed very "withholdy". I don't mind if there is a delay, I understand that I am not the only one in the building, but at least tell me the scoop so I can be part of the team. I was just curious is there is policy on keeping the PC in the dark about things like this.

I've been "out," like your mother since 1976. If they are jacking you around, that is what they are doing. They don't necessarily play by their written words. There is an unwritten tacit set of rules, but you don't get to be privy to them, until you've bought the bridge, hook, line, and sinker. Then you intuitively know what not to say, what lies to tell, etc.

There are lots of good things in the Church, but there are lots of lies and greed too. I think your plan of finishing the class and walking away is a good plan.

Your dad needs to have "sucker" tattooed on his forehead. I'm an "OT" and an auditor. I'm not leaving my body to do remote viewing. I don't levitate the garbage can. I work for a living, pay bills, play at the beach just like a whole lot of other people. You don't have to blow hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that. I'd rather spend my time with my kids, and spend my money on my family.
 

Miss Pert

Silver Meritorious Patron
Randomly, by the way: unless the auditor directly set the appointment with you, it is not an auditors code violation. Normally on a clay table, the sup would set the schedule.

So if there is correction or training needed on the auditor or supervisor, you get to wait while they figure it out.

It is odd to ask a bunch of exes for information about this... Talk to your supervisor or something.

^^^^^This is true^^^^^
However I, when I was a public, NEVER, EVER, EVER got into session at the appointed time. I could wait anything from an hour (never less) to 4-5 hours, to not getting in session at all, with almost no communication from anyone in the HGC unless I went up asked what was happening, and even then never getting a straight answer. So welcome to what is IMHO the standard operating basis of Scn auditing. You'll spend more time waiting than in session and lots of $$$$ handling the ARC breaks you get from having to wait when you finally do get in.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
^^^^^This is true^^^^^
However I, when I was a public, NEVER, EVER, EVER got into session at the appointed time. I could wait anything from an hour (never less) to 4-5 hours, to not getting in session at all, with almost no communication from anyone in the HGC unless I went up asked what was happening, and even then never getting a straight answer. So welcome to what is IMHO the standard operating basis of Scn auditing. You'll spend more time waiting than in session and lots of $$$$ handling the ARC breaks you get from having to wait when you finally do get in.

but the real surprise bonus you get is this...

if you are upset enough times by the church's poor methods and unworkable technology, you will be labeled an "ARC BREAKY PC".

How do I know this?

Because when I was in the Sea Org (ages ago) I was one of the world's highest trained auditors and case supervisors and I trained many hundreds of auditors. That is the tech.

And what does mankind's greatest friend (Ron) tell the auditors to do if you are reacting to Scientology's goof ups by being upset?

The handling for an ARC BREAKY PC is to find out what missed withholds you have.

It's in the tech. Look it up.

And you have to pay for being upset even if it's Scientology that upset you.

You pay for everything whether it is good or bad.

Scientology gets the praise for the good and you get the blame for the bad.

Nice deal, huh?

So all you are permitted to do is say how great everything is and write success stories.

You are not allowed to be human and react to the shit that will be shat upon you. And the longer you stay in the greater the stench will become.

There is much you have to look forward to.

To enjoy many Scientology adventures, be sure to bring a frequent change of clothing.
 
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