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Human Again

Silver Meritorious Patron
RE: why don't they let you into the team and tell you what is delaying your session

Hi,

I will attempt a logical and honest answer.

- Although your auditor sees you as part of the team that is working to clear your bank, and although your CS may feel the same, and maybe even the D of P, other staff are being pushed to "make stats from the PCs". They are set up to see you as "public that must be handled" rather than as one of them. Thus the idea is to keep you in the dark pretty much so that they can make the decisions about where you are etc. It is too scary for an admin staff member to allow you the freedom to decide if you're going to hang around or wait. In case you decide to go and they lose their WDAHs for the day. There would likely be ethics conditions assigned, possibly quite bullying and harrasing statements made and the person who "let you go" would be ostracised. You see, the basic attitude that is drummed into every staff member is that the public are not fully on the team or they'd be staff/SO. They're not quite as good at making ethical decisions and so the best strategy is to make the decision for them and then 8-C them along into compliance.

I expect as you read this you will remember things that have been said or done that verify this. It isn't nice to hear. When I was in the SO I would have been very uncomfortable if you had asked me about this because it is true but isn't something one would say out loud to a public person. I would have found a way to re-frame it so it didn't look so blatanly patronising but that would have beeen a smokescreen.

One of the premises of Scientology is that individuals are "broken" ( abberated) and need to be "fixed" (cleared and taken through to OT) and that they will need to be 8-C'd through this because at some time they will not be "on purpose" enough to make survival descions for themselves. The bottom line is, the staff don't trust you to make a desision in their favour ie to stay and do what they need. They look at your other priorities as "other fish to fry" and are convinced that NOTHING is ever as important you engaging in your current step.

This is why you find Scientolgists who are bankrupt but "OT" they were 8-c'd into borrowing hughe ammounts of money when they were not really in a position to. The promise that "Once you're through this next bit of your bridge you'll be able to handle it" doesn't usualy prove true. Similarly you will sometimes find scientologists who neglect their families and give their time to the org - When I saw that as an SO member I saw it as someone who was so dedicated they had their priorities right. Now I realise that it actually was someone giving their time when they couldn't afford to. You will see many ex-Scn children on this board speaking about how they were neglected. It is screwed priority to work at an org and leave your kids/spouse/family because you believe that if you don't work at the org then the planet will suffer. Since I joined the SO in 1989 the world has NOT gone downhill terribly and it was NOT significantly helped by my years of dedicated service. What I lost, the pain I caused my family and the true cost of giving my time so freely has only recently become clear to me. I was sold on the idea that the SO members knew better, could better see what was important to me and never was a word spoken about my lost career, my lost chances to have a baby, my lost years with my family members who have since died, my lost years for building financial security. In truth anyone who mentioned those things were berrrated for having "other fish to fry", were delt with in ethics and were so deeply considered selfish that the words never needed to be spoken - it was just known and not done.

So, sorry for the longwinded answer but this is it - the staff don't want you to make a decision that may endanger their stats - and if they shared the real situation with you they run a very real chance that you would say "I have more important things to do. I'll come back later." They'd rather string you along with promises while they try and salvage their priorities because you are not part of the team in their eyes.

Natascha ex-Snr HAS International
PS Another reason could be that the staff and SO are always to be shown in the best light. It could be as little as your D of P can't find your folder or as serious as your auditor has blown. You will never know because they can't admit mistakes and certainly can't admit that everyone is not 100% happy. In 90% of my years in the SO I had no idea that some people were so unhappy - because it is a crime to show that you are unhappywith Scientology and this is one way they keep people under control.

It's a bit like that "don't discuss your case" rule. If you can't discuss it, you don't get to hear about the Jason Bege's who are unhappy about things. Or the hundreds of people who later said they "went clear" and it was nothing much at all. Dissapointments are unknownin scin\entology - not because they don't happen but because they are not allowed to be admitted. I bet all their success stories , Jason's included, sounded great. At at academy muster, when he gave his wins, people thought "I wish I were him. I must do that action", whereas as they now tells us, the "wins" were often empty.

I understand you are having fun - good on you - but keep your own counsel and don't be content to be a msuhroom in the dark. I admit I think it willhelp you get out of a losing game quicker, but even if that's not how you see it, it can't be a bad policy - be aware of what's happening and make your own decisions - insist on real information don't buy the PR.

All the best to you.

Natascha
 
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GreyWolf

Gold Meritorious Patron
So, I find this board interesting in my attempt to figure out what I plan to do long term about my involvement with SCN. I respect the opinions of others who have gotten further into this than I have. I've heard the wins of the "ins" and I'm absorbing the viewpoint of those who are "out".

If you tell them that you are communicating with us you will have no long term involvement with the church.
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
Many processes have an EP which is not known to the PC. Such info is guarded somewhat from the PC. I am currently being run on clay table processing - PLEASE, DO NOT TELL ME THE EP EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT!! - I am really trying to figure out my own way in/out of Scientology...

Also, I am curious from the trained auditors on here if it is policy (as opposed to merely practice) to tell the PC little snippets of info about delays or what is REALLY going on, etc? For example, in the little auditing I've been a PC in, it seems if something is happening regarding my folder, I will be told just vagueries and that it'll just be 2 minutes. 2 minutes goes by, and it'll be another 2 minutes. "OK, but I've got to be out of here in 5 minutes", says me. "OK, hang tight for 5 minutes and we'll be able to tell you more". Me - "Alright." 5 minutes later, "So, whats up?" "Oh, go ahead and leave and we'll see you tomorrow".

Or today, I showed up at 9:30am as I was told to do. My auditor wasn't ready. I am not keen on wasting my time, I have A LOT on my plate and sitting an hour watching the clock wind by is not acceptable to me, especially considering the Auditor's Code says something about keeping your appointments. Anyway, every query I gave for the hour I sat there was met with more vagueries and attempts to make me just go away. The sups - 2 of them - seemed very "withholdy". I don't mind if there is a delay, I understand that I am not the only one in the building, but at least tell me the scoop so I can be part of the team. I was just curious is there is policy on keeping the PC in the dark about things like this.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but there is no real EP to clay demos. You either get it right, or you get it wrong--at the discretion of the course sup.

Hubbard gives such a ridiculously simple example of doing a clay demo of "a pencil", and then throws at you:

Clay Demo: "The Socialist Influence of Karl Marx on Modern Day Political Education"

So far, no one has yet met my Clay Demo challenge: "Abstract".

As for being kept in the dark, no organization wants to admit that something is wrong. How many people stand around for hours on railway platforms waiting for a train that's never going to come because lines have been pulled down three stations away, or a train as been de-railed? A simple announcement over the PA that something has gone wrong, and people will still be annoyed, but at least they're informed and less likely to assault staff.

On a rail line that only had one set of tracks, I was waiting for the train to arrive at the change-over station and noticed as it was pulling in that one of the power shoes overhead was arcing against the pick up cable very badly. I immediately approached the guard in the compartment under that shoe and said, "Lower your pantograph immediately, BEFORE it welds to the overhead line." No, he had to stuff around and by the time he actually bothered to try and release it, it was welded fast. This meant the train could not go anywhere without ripping down a 1500V overhead line.

That meant that we had to sit and wait for about an hour and a half while buses were organized and no one was told ANYTHING. The only information was "word of mouth", so when the buses finally showed, quite a few people were frothing at the mouth.

So, after the last thread I visited, am I an LRH "hero" for saving nearly 1000 people from being electrocuted, or am that interfering git who caused 1000 people to be late home for dinner?

Now in my Australian State, rail on-time running is a pretty sloppy affair. As long as the train vaguely passed through the station within ten minutes of the time table (even if it failed to stop because it was making up time), it's counted as running "on time". Try getting away with that in Japan!

A very good friend told me of an announcement at Tokyo "Central" apologising that a train coming in from some 400 miles away was going to be one minute and forty seconds late! That is why you see most Japanese tourist parties being ferried around by Japanese bus companies. If the bus is five minutes late arriving the tourists go into a panic that there may have been an accident!

Now imagine that your Japanese tourist is a PC in the HGC. "Where is my auditor? Has he had a heart attack or something?"
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Curious...why did you decide to post tech questions to EX Scientologists? Where are you doing your services, at a CoS location? FZ? Independent?

If I was studying a religion seriously, I find it extremely difficult imagining myself locating a website of former members and asking them about my religion.

What's up?

I get what you're saying but I would say that for me, my feedback would be that posting it in general discussion is the place that's not the perfect location for this post- not so much a question of why did you post to ESMB. ESMB does have an FZ and an independent Scn section. Of course, that won't preclude the possibility of those who don't do or approve of Scn commenting, but it would be a mo' bettah place for a thread of that sort.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Maybe you are right. But, I would hope that despite the label "ex", that those with opinions would still state them in a factual way rather than a skewed way just to prove their rightness for getting out. Those with rational viewpoints are who I want to read, ex or not.

If you want to be a scientologist, or at least have the true experience of it, you need to form your own opinions based on your interactions with your materials and leave others opinions entirely out of it.

This is an experience you will not get in the Church of Scientology with out a fight, but it is an important one in my opinion.

Study your materials and apply them as the basis of all your conclusions about scientology, or get out of it.

The Church of Scientology on the other hand (rather than scientology as a philosophy and technology) may be better understood with some exposure to others opinions.

(I am not an ex by the way, but still a church member)
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I get what you're saying but I would say that for me, my feedback would be that posting it in general discussion is the place that's not the perfect location for this post- not so much a question of why did you post to ESMB. ESMB does have an FZ and an independent Scn section. Of course, that won't preclude the possibility of those who don't do or approve of Scn commenting, but it would be a mo' bettah place for a thread of that sort.

Ciao Homie....I know what u mean, but....

Let's say I go to a Scientology doctor and he informs me if I don't reduce my weight from 400 to 200 I will die. So, I enroll in Kirstie Allie's Standard Fat-Tech Farm.

But, while I am paying tens of thousands of dollars, living at Kirstie's Mecca Of All Corpulent Corporations ("Fat Flag") I log onto the internet and search for people who failed to lose weight and even got very ill at Fat Flag.

I, myself, who has serious doubts about the safety and efficacy of Kirstie's Fat Tech, are nonetheless paying for it, doing it and asking for the opinions of people who do not think it works?

I am not saying it isn't possible.

Just that it is extremely difficult for ME to understand why someone would be doing that.

I am prepared to learn something, but I don't get it. I mean, WHATTTTT?

Awaiting the Corpulent Clear Cog! :D
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I agree that coming to what's mainly a critical forum AND one that's mainly for ex members to ask about Scn procedure is a bit odd. There are so many FZ fora out there. There're CofS ones, too, but those tend to be hard to get log ins for and of course, CofS Scn'ists tend to never answer questions and tend to freak out about "verbal tech". (For a cult that blathers on and on about communication, they sure suck at it.)
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
If you want to be a scientologist, or at least have the true experience of it, you need to form your own opinions based on your interactions with your materials and leave others opinions entirely out of it.

That seems to me like unusual advice to give someone considering the study of any subject. Why not talk to a number of people in the field that have been professionals for most of their life? See what their experience of it has been PRIOR to deciding that that is what you want for your life. If someone who was considering becoming a doctor came to you for advice, would you advice that he have no interaction with any other doctors, and if he does, to disregard their opinions? Following YOUR advice a person would devote decades of their life and hundreds of thousands of dollars in scientology in pursuit of abilities promised by LRH that will never get delivered.
 

Telepathetic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks for some of the replies here. We'll see what happens.

BTW, I watched the entire 2 hour Jason Beghe interview and I saw a very rational person with some very valid points. The only logical way around some of his points is to a) rationalize and justify by just quoting more tech or b) not ising what he had to say.

If I listen to my father, I get one viewpoint. If I listen to my mother, I get an entirely different viewpoint. I will admit that my dad appears higher tone than my mom. But this could be because the promise of the bridge and the game of it gives him something to do.

The ultimate answer for me lies with my viewpoint, but I am still figuring that out.

You seem like a bright young man and I have no doubt that you will make the right decsion for yourself.

I wish you the very best.:thumbsup:

TP
 

Div6

Crusader
Many processes have an EP which is not known to the PC. Such info is guarded somewhat from the PC. I am currently being run on clay table processing - PLEASE, DO NOT TELL ME THE EP EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT!! - I am really trying to figure out my own way in/out of Scientology. But, the fact that such info is held from the PC does seem to indicate that some processes, anyway, are not a scam, but are actually run to a certain definite point. Apparently, I'm not there yet, but its going well so far. I am enjoying playing with the clay. I've written up a few wins, even had a minor ARC break b/c I felt I was being overrun on the process, but apparently I still haven't manifested the EP. So, we'll keep plugging and see what happens.

There seems so many things in SCN that are so non workable, but other indications seem to show that it's heart is in the right place and results are available to be had legitimately, despite the cost. Its quite a conundrum to solve this riddle.

Also, I am curious from the trained auditors on here if it is policy (as opposed to merely practice) to tell the PC little snippets of info about delays or what is REALLY going on, etc? For example, in the little auditing I've been a PC in, it seems if something is happening regarding my folder, I will be told just vagueries and that it'll just be 2 minutes. 2 minutes goes by, and it'll be another 2 minutes. "OK, but I've got to be out of here in 5 minutes", says me. "OK, hang tight for 5 minutes and we'll be able to tell you more". Me - "Alright." 5 minutes later, "So, whats up?" "Oh, go ahead and leave and we'll see you tomorrow".

Or today, I showed up at 9:30am as I was told to do. My auditor wasn't ready. I am not keen on wasting my time, I have A LOT on my plate and sitting an hour watching the clock wind by is not acceptable to me, especially considering the Auditor's Code says something about keeping your appointments. Anyway, every query I gave for the hour I sat there was met with more vagueries and attempts to make me just go away. The sups - 2 of them - seemed very "withholdy". I don't mind if there is a delay, I understand that I am not the only one in the building, but at least tell me the scoop so I can be part of the team. I was just curious is there is policy on keeping the PC in the dark about things like this.

Those "R" Factors are being made by admin personnel that are clueless, and the effect of situations they can not control. For example, if you are on a review line, then your folder needs to go to the C\S, get C\S'ed, then to the auditor (who has to then study the folder, and if they have any outstanding crams do them before taking you in session), then in session. There are any number of potential stops or slows on that line (the C\S is unavailable, or the auditor has a cram but there is no one available to fly their cramming ruds, etc, etc, etc). This is par for the course in these "organizations".

You are right of course, whatever "good" there is there gets diluted by all of these niggly little things........


Oh, and I used to sup the TR's Clay Table auditing......I won't tell you the EP.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I agree that coming to what's mainly a critical forum AND one that's mainly for ex members to ask about Scn procedure is a bit odd. There are so many FZ fora out there. There're CofS ones, too, but those tend to be hard to get log ins for and of course, CofS Scn'ists tend to never answer questions and tend to freak out about "verbal tech". (For a cult that blathers on and on about communication, they sure suck at it.)

Love that "Silence is golden-never give Verbal Tech" thingie!

SCIENTOLOGIST AT SCENE OF AN ACCIDENT: Silent cuz they don't want to give you verbal engramic content.

SCIENTOLOGIST WHEN ASKED ABOUT XENU: Silent cuz they don't want to verbally give you pneumonia and kill you.

SCIENTOLOGIST WHEN ORG IS ON FIRE: Silent when you are choking from smoke inhalation and desperately begging to know where the fire escape is--because telling you would be verbal tech.​

"We'd rather have you dead than using squirrel tech to get out of the trap."​
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
The question is whether all these good-hearted Scientologists that juicycef knows are good because of Scientology, or in spite of it. And whether the 'data' that makes life seem simpler is truth, or delusion.

The other stuff juicycef has found in Scientology seems to be false promises, runarounds, attempts at thought control, and stringing people along indefinitely while aggressively taking their money. How consistent is that with helping people become better people or discover truth?
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Love that "Silence is golden-never give Verbal Tech" thingie!

SCIENTOLOGIST AT SCENE OF AN ACCIDENT: Silent cuz they don't want to give you verbal engramic content.

SCIENTOLOGIST WHEN ASKED ABOUT XENU: Silent cuz they don't want to verbally give you pneumonia and kill you.

SCIENTOLOGIST WHEN ORG IS ON FIRE: Silent when you are choking from smoke inhalation and desperately begging to know where the fire escape is--because telling you would be verbal tech.​

"We'd rather have you dead than using squirrel tech to get out of the trap."​

OMG, that's too funny! And spot on, as usual.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
That seems to me like unusual advice to give someone considering the study of any subject. Why not talk to a number of people in the field that have been professionals for most of their life? See what their experience of it has been PRIOR to deciding that that is what you want for your life. If someone who was considering becoming a doctor came to you for advice, would you advice that he have no interaction with any other doctors, and if he does, to disregard their opinions? Following YOUR advice a person would devote decades of their life and hundreds of thousands of dollars in scientology in pursuit of abilities promised by LRH that will never get delivered.

Others opinions cloud the experience. They act as predjudice. They mix their understanding with the actual concepts.

I am not saying to never solicit others opinions, but to form your own opinions based on your own observations or the actual materials.

In the case of doctors, of medicine, it is a subject of many multiples of sources with no single authority.

Scientology, while it may be to some extent a compilation, has a single defined body of materials that comprise the whole of it. For me that is source, the body of concepts in the materials. And in that is the self definiton as a subject of a single source. To solicit input outside that paradigm is to do something other than scientology, which of course is anyones right. But to grok scientology, one must do it in a manner true to its design. IMO, and I realize the resistance to the notion of Hubbard as "source", when it seems more of a team effort in parts.

Scientology contains practices specifically intended to impart its concepts without interpretation as part of the process, such as the study technology and supervisor methods, and the use of internships and review and cramming in Qual.

Opinions about scientology, interpretations, etc are not scientology. They have their time and place, but that is not in a study of scientology that is true to its intent.

My advice would be to NOT spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with the Church of Scientology in the pursuit of anything as the church exists today. But I stand by my advice to study scientology as it was intended to be studied, to fully "get" it. Studying it with its integrity compromised by additions and ommissions introduced by others will result is less the a full grasp of it. Or at least with one that is not fully ones own.

Then when the holistic sense of it is owned by the person, do as though wilt.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
My advice would be to NOT spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with the Church of Scientology in the pursuit of anything as the church exists today. But I stand by my advice to study scientology as it was intended to be studied, to fully "get" it. Studying it with its integrity compromised by additions and ommissions introduced by others will result is less the a full grasp of it. Or at least with one that is not fully ones own.

Alex, you are a member of the CoS, so you are aware that their intention is to get people onto and over the Bridge. The cost of doing that IS hundreds of thousands of dollars yet you say your advice "would be to NOT spend hundreds of thousands of dollars.........". I'm assuming that you would have no hesitation to recommend that a person would pay for their entire bridge IF you were confident that it delivered all the results as promised. That you would advise someone NOT to do that seems an indication that you have no such confidence.
Up to what part of the bridge would you feel it IS safe to travel? (and to pay for?)
 

juicycef

Patron
Hi,

I will attempt a logical and honest answer.

- Although your auditor sees you as part of the team that is working to clear your bank, and although your CS may feel the same, and maybe even the D of P, other staff are being pushed to "make stats from the PCs". They are set up to see you as "public that must be handled" rather than as one of them. Thus the idea is to keep you in the dark pretty much so that they can make the decisions about where you are etc. It is too scary for an admin staff member to allow you the freedom to decide if you're going to hang around or wait. In case you decide to go and they lose their WDAHs for the day. There would likely be ethics conditions assigned, possibly quite bullying and harrasing statements made and the person who "let you go" would be ostracised. You see, the basic attitude that is drummed into every staff member is that the public are not fully on the team or they'd be staff/SO. They're not quite as good at making ethical decisions and so the best strategy is to make the decision for them and then 8-C them along into compliance.

I expect as you read this you will remember things that have been said or done that verify this. It isn't nice to hear. When I was in the SO I would have been very uncomfortable if you had asked me about this because it is true but isn't something one would say out loud to a public person. I would have found a way to re-frame it so it didn't look so blatanly patronising but that would have beeen a smokescreen.

One of the premises of Scientology is that individuals are "broken" ( abberated) and need to be "fixed" (cleared and taken through to OT) and that they will need to be 8-C'd through this because at some time they will not be "on purpose" enough to make survival descions for themselves. The bottom line is, the staff don't trust you to make a desision in their favour ie to stay and do what they need. They look at your other priorities as "other fish to fry" and are convinced that NOTHING is ever as important you engaging in your current step.

This is why you find Scientolgists who are bankrupt but "OT" they were 8-c'd into borrowing hughe ammounts of money when they were not really in a position to. The promise that "Once you're through this next bit of your bridge you'll be able to handle it" doesn't usualy prove true. Similarly you will sometimes find scientologists who neglect their families and give their time to the org - When I saw that as an SO member I saw it as someone who was so dedicated they had their priorities right. Now I realise that it actually was someone giving their time when they couldn't afford to. You will see many ex-Scn children on this board speaking about how they were neglected. It is screwed priority to work at an org and leave your kids/spouse/family because you believe that if you don't work at the org then the planet will suffer. Since I joined the SO in 1989 the world has NOT gone downhill terribly and it was NOT significantly helped by my years of dedicated service. What I lost, the pain I caused my family and the true cost of giving my time so freely has only recently become clear to me. I was sold on the idea that the SO members knew better, could better see what was important to me and never was a word spoken about my lost career, my lost chances to have a baby, my lost years with my family members who have since died, my lost years for building financial security. In truth anyone who mentioned those things were berrrated for having "other fish to fry", were delt with in ethics and were so deeply considered selfish that the words never needed to be spoken - it was just known and not done.

So, sorry for the longwinded answer but this is it - the staff don't want you to make a decision that may endanger their stats - and if they shared the real situation with you they run a very real chance that you would say "I have more important things to do. I'll come back later." They'd rather string you along with promises while they try and salvage their priorities because you are not part of the team in their eyes.

Natascha ex-Snr HAS International
PS Another reason could be that the staff and SO are always to be shown in the best light. It could be as little as your D of P can't find your folder or as serious as your auditor has blown. You will never know because they can't admit mistakes and certainly can't admit that everyone is not 100% happy. In 90% of my years in the SO I had no idea that some people were so unhappy - because it is a crime to show that you are unhappywith Scientology and this is one way they keep people under control.

It's a bit like that "don't discuss your case" rule. If you can't discuss it, you don't get to hear about the Jason Bege's who are unhappy about things. Or the hundreds of people who later said they "went clear" and it was nothing much at all. Dissapointments are unknownin scin\entology - not because they don't happen but because they are not allowed to be admitted. I bet all their success stories , Jason's included, sounded great. At at academy muster, when he gave his wins, people thought "I wish I were him. I must do that action", whereas as they now tells us, the "wins" were often empty.

I understand you are having fun - good on you - but keep your own counsel and don't be content to be a msuhroom in the dark. I admit I think it willhelp you get out of a losing game quicker, but even if that's not how you see it, it can't be a bad policy - be aware of what's happening and make your own decisions - insist on real information don't buy the PR.

All the best to you.

Natascha

I wanted to especially acknowledge this reply. I much appreciate your viewpoint here. Thanks!
 

The Great Zorg

Gold Meritorious Patron
playing with clay is goofy and seemingly too simplistic, but it works.
Sez u

there's neuroscience research (last i saw the reference was from sciencedaily.com)
($cientologydaily?)

that shows that the parts of the brain that deal with touch and feeding, always light up whenever you learn. i've found all kinds of parallels between scientology and later psychological/psychiatric/medical research that suggests that yes there is gold within the dirt pile that is the church.
l.ron pyrite :dieslaughing:

i can see how people think hubbard stole from hinduism, aristotle, etc. but behind all philosophies of old are the mathematical/geometrical formulas.
THINK? Absolute total proof beyond a shadow of a doubt is not 'thinking that...'

such formulas symbolize the vibratory relationships/ratios of different 'levels' of 'energy.' hubbard did get what older mathematical cults (pythagoras is one example) knew about energy and the fractal nature of energy. relationships at the subatomic scale can be found in the same relationships between humans and fighting/feeding/f..., etc. the premise therefore is that optimal human relationships can be discovered from studying the math and energy flows.
Holy Mother of God in Heaven: ron's back and thus speaketh!!!

i think the bridge is a ponzi scheme not because it's totally crap, but because it's been watered down, stretched-out, over-simplified in some areas and over-complicated in other areas--but especially over-priced. i couldn't have gotten into a high-iq society(practically retarded though) if it weren't for the study-tech.
Judging by your grammar and spelling...

but that's always been the trick hasn't it? how do you sift the gold from the dirt?
...and sell fool's gold to the spiritual prospectors?

how do you efficiently throw the bathwater out while keeping the baby?
You don't.

just because someone can't follow their philosophy, doesn't mean their philosophy is wrong.
But if NOBODY can follow the philosophy then...

i think the church was infiltrated long ago,
Yeah, from day one.

and i think hubbard went crazy with the half of scio that doesn't work.
"was", not "went" and "all", not "half", or is it five-eigths, or nine sixteenths?

either that or the church considered enemies of the slighest kind, and decided long ago to play a complex two-edged sword game (like in the movie swordfish) so that the 'enemies of truth' are distracted by the apparency that the 'best way out' for man doesn't work...while the actual work continues. i'll not expand upon this ambiguity
Thank you for that!
 
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