If the cause were true.

[Queenmab321]

I've been wondering lately about how Hubbard might have proceeded if, on the one hand, he had actually been who he claimed to be, he had really possessed unique insight into nature of things, his tech had been grounded in real science, his "discoveries" about Xenu and the rest of it had been true and he had in fact discovered a path to enlightenment and to the salvation of the whole world from an ancient, alien curse. And if, on the other hand, rather than being a greedy, paranoid, manipulative, amoral sociopath, he had been an altruist, genuinely concerned for the welfare of humanity, willing to sacrifice himself to his cause.

Under such circumstances, what would Hubbard have created, what would Scientology look like, what would his legacy have been?

 

[Peter Soderqvist]

If Scientology worked everybody would be interested in it!

 

[xenu'sAdvocate]

I've been wondering lately about how Hubbard might have proceeded if, on the one hand, he had actually been who he claimed to be,
Hubbard would have had to be 100s of years old to have lived through and done everything he claimed... Oh, and it would help if he at least passed a class in nuclear physics.
he had really possessed unique insight into nature of things,
His 'tech' would at least have to not be self-contradictory...
his tech had been grounded in real science,
He would have had to submitted his 'discoveries' to peer review, would never claim to be 'source' and would be open to others both testing and building upon his discoveries. Also, he probably couldn't discover all the wonderful secrets about clams, since I don't think that giving speed to your kid and listening to him freak out is considered good scientific procedure.
his "discoveries" about Xenu and the rest of it had been true and he had in fact discovered a path to enlightenment and to the salvation of the whole world from an ancient, alien curse.
Well, volcanoes would have to have been formed earlier in time. Oh, and the universe would have to be a badly written piece of pulp science fiction.
And if, on the other hand, rather than being a greedy, paranoid, manipulative, amoral sociopath, he had been an altruist, genuinely concerned for the welfare of humanity, willing to sacrifice himself to his cause.
Then the 'tech' would look completely different, since it was either designed to serve these traits or is a reflection of these traits.
Under such circumstances, what would Hubbard have created, what would Scientology look like, what would his legacy have been? So if up was down, left was right, the sun circled the moon and aliens wore fedora hats, how would things look? I don't even understand the question.

 

[programmer_guy]

He wouldn't have discovered anything more than what little was already known decades ago.

The future, on this topic, is in brain research (i.e. how one part affects another and the rest of the body, not Dianetics).
For examples, this requires much more brain sensor scanning capability and computing power (i.e. for simulations in "modeling") than anyone had at that time and then go back and retest the computing model on real humans to test hypotheses.
We didn't have this stuff in, say, the 1950s.

My guess is that this will eventually be accomplished through a combination of biological research and research in computer artificial intelligence (IBM has been working on the computing part for some time now).

 

[Queenmab321]

He wouldn't have discovered anything more than what little was already known decades ago.

The future, on this topic, is in brain research (i.e. how one part affects another and the rest of the body, not Dianetics).
For examples, this requires much more brain sensor scanning capability and computing power (i.e. for simulations in "modeling") than anyone had at that time and then go back and retest the computing model on real humans to test hypotheses.
We didn't have this stuff in, say, the 1950s.

My guess is that this will eventually be accomplished through a combination of biological research and research in computer artificial intelligence (IBM has been working on the computing part for some time now).

I believe all that you say is true. I'm not suggesting Hubbard actually possessed any meaningful insight, scientific or otherwise. I suppose the question I'm trying to get at is, what would a good man have done with the discoveries Hubbard claimed to have made if those discoveries had been true?

 

[PirateAndBum]

He wouldn't have discovered anything more than what little was already known decades ago.

The future, on this topic, is in brain research (i.e. how one part affects another and the rest of the body, not Dianetics).
For examples, this requires much more brain sensor scanning capability and computing power (i.e. for simulations in "modeling") than anyone had at that time and then go back and retest the computing model on real humans to test hypotheses.
We didn't have this stuff in, say, the 1950s.

My guess is that this will eventually be accomplished through a combination of biological research and research in computer artificial intelligence (IBM has been working on the computing part for some time now).

Feh, brains smains. You've lost your spirit p_g. Spirit rules, meat rots.

 

[Queenmab321]

Feh, brains smains. You've lost your spirit p_g. Spirit rules, meat rots.

Well, it thinks for seventy odd years, then it rots. Meat enjoys the advantage of actually being known to exist.

 

[programmer_guy]

I believe all that you say is true. I'm not suggesting Hubbard actually possessed any meaningful insight, scientific or otherwise. I suppose the question I'm trying to get at is, what would a good man have done with the discoveries Hubbard claimed to have made if those discoveries had been true?

1. Hubbard wouldn't have had to run in paranoid panic to sea-going vessels,
2. There would be no RPF,
3. Lisa McPherson would not have died,
4. Mary Sue would not have died, during her last days, as an outcast of Scientology,
5. Bob Minton would never had opposed Scientology,
6. There would be no Operation Clambake,
7. In mass numbers, the entire world would have "beaten a path to his front doorstep",,
8. This message board would not exist,
9. All companies in all industries throughout the world would be deliberately hiring OTs to get an edge over their competition,
10. All psychosomatic diseases world-wide would have been wiped-out by now.
11. There would be new laws restricting OTs from manipulating vehicle intersection traffic lights to their own advantage,
12. All OTs would be millionaires,
13. We would not need the "planet Mars rover vehicle" because OTs could do a better job than that,
14. All people on this planet would be using dictionaries many times every day,
15. There would be new laws restricting OTs from manipulating vehicle intersection traffic lights to their own advantage, (Oops! I already listed this item)
16. Delphi schools would be the predominant means of education throughout the entire world,
17. Bent Corydon, Jon Atack, et al, would not have written critical books,
18. I would still be involved in Scientology on staff,
19. Most politicians would be Scientologists

Do I really need to go on? (I am feeling exhausted right about now.)

 

[Helena Handbasket]

If L. Ron Hubbard possessed true insights into the nature of the human condition and if he were mainly altruistic about sharing it and if ... well, you get the idea. So why didn't it work the way it was supposed to? Let me give you some interpretations here:

(1) There was opposition to his aims by powerful special interests, who had a sweet deal going and were threatened by the idea of the masses "going free".

(2) He tried to expand too fast. Part of the reason for this is he wanted the group to "get big quick" to try to outmanuver the special interests. In doing so, he gradually lost control of the organization. It used to be that only trained, proven auditors would be promoted to management posts. Then he decided that faster expansion could be had by separating staff into "admin" and "technical". Since the admin staff didn't need technical training, that was one expense that could be spared. But this only led to non-auditors (one of whom only wears bow ties) taking over the church.

(3) He didn't trust some people enough. Pat Broeker and Bill Robertson in particular should have been given near-absolute authority. But instead, he tried to hold on tight to the reins of power and when they got too numerous for him to handle, he let his personal staff help him, some of whom had other ideas in mind.

(4) He put too much trust in others. There is actual policy that forbids a staff member from doing a cycle of action and then asking, "is this okay?" Someone who is new on post needs guidance and hand-holding, no matter how well the post had been written up by their predecessor. A whole building full of L. Ron Hubbards may have done well, but green staff members can't be expected to be nearly as productive -- perhaps for a long, long time.

(5) Staff were not given priority in getting their cases handled. This action more than any other would have made for more capable and productive groups. And many joined up because of the [implied] promise of same. If this had continued to be done, people would have been breaking the door down to join staff.

(6) He ignored the needs and preferences of individuals. I almost walked out my first year as a mission public, because I wanted dianetic, not scientology auditing (I wish I had). "The customer is always right" is a phrase never used in the COS. Even if a certain course of action is not optimum, as long as it is not entirely destructive, it is better to give people what they want rather than risk them leaving because the organization is not meeting their [perceived] needs.

(7) He was paranoid about SP's. He kept thinking that the church was about to be destroyed by one big, crashing SP who would come in and wreck everything. Rather, he should have been concerned about the cumulative effect of a bit of discontentment among many staff members. He developed a system of sec-checking to protect the orgs from enemies. Ultimately, this tactic failed, because the enemies became the ones doing the sec checks, and then sec checks were used as a way of harassing and ripping off those innocent of wanting to cause harm to the group.

(8) He set up a system where those who had complaints were always the ones to blame, rather than the staff, the tech, or himself. Those who were perfectly willing to work with a less-than-perfect system were vilified until they were made into disaffected enemies.

Just my opinion, FWIW.

Helena

 

[Gadfly]

If, if, if . . . .

If a frog had wings he wouldn't have to keep jumping and bumping his ass.

But, it doesn't (have wings) and it does (keep bumping its ass)! If you imagine it with other qualities then it is not a frog.

Fictional imaginings.

But, then humans like to make up stupid shit, believe it, and foist it upon everybody else (look at Ron and Scientologists). :confused2:

Or. look at the above post about the seniority of a brain . . .

It will become one real fucked up world when scientists begin eventually "adding to the brain" (with little bio-computerized devices) in the purported aim to "help make Man better". Man will eventually be turned into this sort of creature who represents many hundred of thousand of years of scientific genetic and self-bio-electronic "improvement" aimed entirely at altering the physical to effect things mental (and even spiritual):

Scientific fiddling always results in unknown side-effects and unwanted by-products, the amount of which is proportional to all the variables and relationships they know little or nothing about (while pretending to know all). Once they begin adding to and re-adjusting Man's brain, with future bio-electronics, we will evolve into a race of emotionless near-robots, with an implanted hive-like mentality (all done in the name of some utopian Platonic abstract idea called "unity of community, society or state"), the details of which will only depend on which group of elitists get to pick the "vision" of this "new and better Man". While I enjoy a great many areas and results of science in this world, Man's feigned knowledge in this realm will have disastrous effects (if pushed to extreme degrees of alteration in Man's brain). Hopefully, the more sensible will win out in this debate. Once Man starts fiddling with his own genetics and brain, there will be no way to reverse the long-term effects.



There is one possible hopeful scenario. The rich and powerful, will of course, want to benefit by all these great new "advances" as it will seem to give them an even better competitive edge in the "game of life". Then when the epidemics due to genetic failure occur, it will take with it the elitists who began the whole movement of "bio-electrical self-betterment". It might "self-correct" itself. We can only hope.

The mechanical biological view introverts on "structure", and fails entirely to delve into how any mind does what it does (function) in so many ways. It would take an extremely self-aware human being, of which there are few or none within the scientific community, to delineate all of the aspects of how and what a mind truly does as it interacts with the world of matter, energy, space and time, and which then would provide the information needed to build into the "computer model" of consciousness.

The solution to "mental health" actually lies in self -awareness, or as the sign said above an entrance gate of a Greek temple at Delphi, "Know Thyself". Granted, THAT is no easy task, and it may NEVER be possible for the usual person of a materialistic society. Someday, maybe . . . someday.

Geez, I hope the geeks and the materialists NEVER unite and get to rule the world (but it seems almost inevitable).

Of course, if the crazy mystics and New Agers got to rule the world, it would be just as bad.

I suspect that we are cursed to follow a Hegelian dialetic path of a very SLOW evolution through endless trial and error (where trial and error with civilizations and Man can take a VERY long time).

 

[Commander Birdsong]

1. Hubbard wouldn't have had to run in paranoid panic to sea-going vessels,
2. There would be no RPF,
3. Lisa McPherson would not have died,
4. Mary Sue would not have died, during her last days, as an outcast of Scientology,
5. Bob Minton would never had opposed Scientology,
6. There would be no Operation Clambake,
7. In mass numbers, the entire world would have "beaten a path to his front doorstep",,
8. This message board would not exist,
9. All companies in all industries throughout the world would be deliberately hiring OTs to get an edge over their competition,
10. All psychosomatic diseases world-wide would have been wiped-out by now.
11. There would be new laws restricting OTs from manipulating vehicle intersection traffic lights to their own advantage,
12. All OTs would be millionaires,
13. We would not need the "planet Mars rover vehicle" because OTs could do a better job than that,
14. All people on this planet would be using dictionaries many times every day,
15. There would be new laws restricting OTs from manipulating vehicle intersection traffic lights to their own advantage, (Oops! I already listed this item)
16. Delphi schools would be the predominant means of education throughout the entire world,
17. Bent Corydon, Jon Atack, et al, would not have written critical books,
18. I would still be involved in Scientology on staff,
19. Most politicians would be Scientologists

Do I really need to go on? (I am feeling exhausted right about now.)

well...

i haven't been "active" for nearly 40 years but i sure as HELL was active when i was active. then as now i filtered the materials through the bill of rights, the hippocratic oath and the wisdom of scripture especially judeochristian scripture. it worked pretty well then. it still does and i do believe i am somewhat "OT"

now why would there be any linkage between being "OT" and being a millionaire?

 

[La La Lou Lou]

I think of all the treasures unearthed by scientologist archaeologists, vaults full of dropped jewellery and buried jewelled crowns.

 

[Queenmab321]

I think of all the treasures unearthed by scientologist archaeologists, vaults full of dropped jewellery and buried jewelled crowns.

Hubbard's proposition that we've lived before at various historical times and places is readily verifiable. It should have been possible to authenticate accounts of past events disclosed through auditing since, if real, a portion of such accounts would be verifiable by means of analysis of archeological as well as extant documentary evidence. What's more, these disparate narratives, disclosed by numerous individual subjects would all coincide and compliment each other, so that it should also have been possible to create, in the aggregate, a comprehensive history of the world, via this newly discovered channel of historical data. Hubbard arrogated to himself the status of source with regard to such matters; but, if his discoveries had had any merit, all those enabled by his technology to recall the events of past lives would have become, collectively, the source of an unprecedented account of human (thetan?) history.

 

[Gib]

I've been wondering lately about how Hubbard might have proceeded if, on the one hand, he had actually been who he claimed to be, he had really possessed unique insight into nature of things, his tech had been grounded in real science, his "discoveries" about Xenu and the rest of it had been true and he had in fact discovered a path to enlightenment and to the salvation of the whole world from an ancient, alien curse.

And if, on the other hand, rather than being a greedy, paranoid, manipulative, amoral sociopath, he had been an altruist, genuinely concerned for the welfare of humanity, willing to sacrifice himself to his cause.

Under such circumstances, what would Hubbard have created, what would Scientology look like, what would his legacy have been?

If he truely discovered the secrets,

he would not have violated his number one rule -

don't evaluate for the pc or tell the pc "what" to think about his case. (the Bridge to Total Freedom)

To do otherwise is social engineering, brainwashing.

 

[Gadfly]

Hubbard's proposition that we've lived before at various historical times and places is readily verifiable. It should have been possible to authenticate accounts of past events disclosed through auditing since, if real, a portion of such accounts would be verifiable by means of analysis of archeological as well as extant documentary evidence. What's more, these disparate narratives, disclosed by numerous individual subjects would all coincide and compliment each other, so that it should also have been possible to create, in the aggregate, a comprehensive history of the world, via this newly discovered channel of historical data. Hubbard arrogated to himself the status of source with regard to such matters; but, if his discoveries had had any merit, all those enabled by his technology to recall the events of past lives would have become, collectively, the source of an unprecedented account of human (thetan?) history.

Why didn't anyone ever go dig up all those buried pirate treasures?

Or, remember advanced technology from the past and develop it out again?

Or, recall being a concern pianist in a past life, and have that ability immediately transfer to NOW?

 

[Anonycat]

Hubbard's proposition that we've lived before at various historical times and places is readily verifiable. It should have been possible to authenticate accounts of past events disclosed through auditing since, if real, a portion of such accounts would be verifiable by means of analysis of archeological as well as extant documentary evidence. What's more, these disparate narratives, disclosed by numerous individual subjects would all coincide and compliment each other, so that it should also have been possible to create, in the aggregate, a comprehensive history of the world, via this newly discovered channel of historical data. Hubbard arrogated to himself the status of source with regard to such matters; but, if his discoveries had had any merit, all those enabled by his technology to recall the events of past lives would have become, collectively, the source of an unprecedented account of human (thetan?) history.

Well, that is a really big problem. If Clears and OTs can recall every sensation and sense (57?) then any of them could write very vividly about the last 4 quadrillion years.

 

[Anonycat]

Why didn't anyone ever go dig up all those buried pirate treasures?

Or, remember advanced technology form the past and bring it out again?

Or, recall being a concern pianist in a past life, and have that ability immediately transfer to NOW?

Or go back some years and be Bill Gates? Any OT thetan could surely run out the central thetan in his body. Stash the gold, and come back. If Ron can remember the beginning of the universe, anyone can ... right?

 

[Gib]

Why didn't anyone ever go dig up all those buried pirate treasures?

Or, remember advanced technology form the past and bring it out again?

Or, recall being a concern pianist in a past life, and have that ability immediately transfer to NOW?

that would be Method 1 word clearing auditing action - recovery of one's education.

:confused2:

 

[Anonycat]

that would be Method 1 word clearing auditing action - recovery of one's education.

:confused2:

 

[guanoloco]

Seriously, if Scientology needed money and wanted to actually Clear the planet and help/salvage people then OTs would regularly be winning lotteries and the Bridge would be free of charge (get it, haha). Once people figured out going OT meant winning lotteries you couldn't stop the stampede.

Or what about a whole track commercial enterprise to glean all the medical and scientific miracles of advanced space opera to fund the Bridge for planet Teegeeack?

Have you ever noticed that Ron could 100% discern the past and critique that but was silent on the future and couldn't even mention the internet? Hmmmm...