In defence of Hubbard

[Udarnik]

Wow.

As the local top-forty DJ often says, "The hits just keep rolling."

There is so much to learn and understand about human nature. I think schools have their priorities all messed up. We need to teach our children certain CORE information about what we are and how we act and respond to help immunize our children and ourselves against this kind of stuff.

Core. In physical training, if your core isn't strong it doesn't matter how strong your limbs are, you're going to have problems. Bad balance, back going out, lack of overall coordination.

Logical thinking (including what logical fallacies are, and how to avoid them), psychology, and statistics (coupled with the psychology and how humans create shit in their heads that isn't there, as well as how to interpret studies and the like) should be part of the core curriculum in high school.

We have a HS curriculum that was (stupidly) designed to make everyone into an engineer. Why is calculus and not statistics taught as the highest academic track math class in most high schools? Because the curriculum was designed right after Sputnik, when it was thought we'd need millions of engineers to fight the cold war.

 

[clamicide]

Logical thinking (including what logical fallacies are, and how to avoid them), psychology, and statistics (coupled with the psychology and how humans create shit in their heads that isn't there, as well as how to interpret studies and the like) should be part of the core curriculum in high school.

We have a HS curriculum that was (stupidly) designed to make everyone into an engineer. Why is calculus and not statistics taught as the highest academic track math class in most high schools? Because the curriculum was designed right after Sputnik, when it was thought we'd need millions of engineers to fight the cold war.

Yep. My first quarter when I returned back to school I took both a statistics class and a psych class that including having to critically analyze papers from research studies. If I had those 2 courses in high school, I'm pretty sure I never would have wound up in the cult. Sprinkle in even a dose of what I later learned from my foray into the arena of social psychology, and reading the Trivium (by Sister Miriam Joseph and Marguerite McGlinn) like we did in one or my writing classes? I think that is a pretty good recipe for keeping people almost entirely cult-proof. (although, I gotta admit, I think I was the only one in my class who actually really loved The Trivium, and other classes fully covered the logical fallacies, including speech--so that part is purely optional)

I think what is oddly hilarious, is that even though my mind was so enslaved, I tried to teach critical thinking to my sons. Even to the point where they were yanked out of school because I was upset about the limited view being taught. For one son, he more or less loved and followed his dad so blindly that I think that's a big part of how he ended up going SO. My other kid, however, actually managed to apply the critical thinking that he learned and figured out Scientology was a huge con. He also pegged Miscavige from day one as a slimy dude he didn't trust. He had to gently wake ME up to the Scio con game. Kinda sucks--wish I could have taken those courses earlier...

 

[In present time]

Seriously, what criminality? You mean the IRS infiltration stuff? Give me a break! Are you also complaining that NSA was (and of course is) spying all over the globe? Big companies involved like Google, facebook and Microsoft. Did they got paid for it? I don't know and I don't bother...

What I am saying is that spying and infiltrating is as old as mankind. Why should Hubbard be denied what governments are not only allowed and supposed to do but even get paid for (by taxpayers).

Yeah, I didn't actually consider those acts anymore unlawful than what any average church, government or corporation would do routinely. However they were highly illegal. The crime was Hubbard throwing everyone under the bus and going on the lam while Mary Sue and others went to prison.

 

[OhMG]

We have a HS curriculum that was (stupidly) designed to make everyone into an engineer.

Not for a long time. The majority of US HS grads can't do elementary algebra. We are IMPORTING engineers because of the crappy public EDU system.

The last time I was building a company I was shocked at what people were getting degrees in. Mostly worthless subjects. I started asking applicants why. The almost universal answer was that they couldn't handle mathematics...

 

[clamicide]

Not for a long time. The majority of US HS grads can't do elementary algebra. We are IMPORTING engineers because of the crappy public EDU system.

The last time I was building a company I was shocked at what people were getting degrees in. Mostly worthless subjects. I started asking applicants why. The almost universal answer was that they couldn't handle mathematics...

Yep. It's frightening. I tutor adults in basic math who are going back to school. I'm seriously hand-holding them through the stuff I had done back in third and fourth grade. They are WAY below even the algebra level. No idea what the hell their high schools actually taught.

People get freaked out that I take calculus and assume I'm some sort of crazy genius (and just finishing that track and one other 'advanced' class, along with the stats sequence I did, will give me a minor in math). I guess I just didn't go to schools that totally sucked growing up. I dropped out of high school, so didn't make it to my calc back then, but it didn't seem weird at the time at all to be on that track.

Part of it also has to be HOW things are taught. I'm always stunned that people who were completely flummoxed by fractions 'get' them after just sitting down with me for a few hours. When I home-schooled my kids, I couldn't find a text worth a damn and ended up just teaching them that myself. Actually, I really need to write a book on THAT--a freaking fractions text that actually makes sense. In fact, 2 different people dropped out of my calculus class, not because they didn't get the calculus--they kept screwing up the fractions and would wind up with wrong answers--no idea how they survived their lower-level coures.

 

[OhMG]

Yep. It's frightening. I tutor adults in basic math who are going back to school. I'm seriously hand-holding them through the stuff I had done back in third and fourth grade. They are WAY below even the algebra level. No idea what the hell their high schools actually taught.

People get freaked out that I take calculus and assume I'm some sort of crazy genius (and just finishing that track and one other 'advanced' class, along with the stats sequence I did, will give me a minor in math). I guess I just didn't go to schools that totally sucked growing up. I dropped out of high school, so didn't make it to my calc back then, but it didn't seem weird at the time at all to be on that track.

Part of it also has to be HOW things are taught. I'm always stunned that people who were completely flummoxed by fractions 'get' them after just sitting down with me for a few hours. When I home-schooled my kids, I couldn't find a text worth a damn and ended up just teaching them that myself. Actually, I really need to write a book on THAT--a freaking fractions text that actually makes sense. In fact, 2 different people dropped out of my calculus class, not because they didn't get the calculus--they kept screwing up the fractions and would wind up with wrong answers--no idea how they survived their lower-level coures.

I know. How the hell do people think they are going to maintain a 1st world, industrial econ without TONS of engineers being created? The stupidity boggles the mind.

 

[Winston Smith]

Seriously, what criminality? You mean the IRS infiltration stuff? Give me a break! Are you also complaining that NSA was (and of course is) spying all over the globe? Big companies involved like Google, facebook and Microsoft. Did they got paid for it? I don't know and I don't bother...

What I am saying is that spying and infiltrating is as old as mankind. Why should Hubbard be denied what governments are not only allowed and supposed to do but even get paid for (by taxpayers).

And why should the feds and local police be the only ones allowed to openly carry firearms when it is in the fucking US Constitution? Personally sometimes I think I would like to pack heat because of stupid police officers. Just about every big city in the US violates the US Constitution regarding the 2nd Amendment.

 

[OhMG]

And why should the feds and local police be the only ones allowed to openly carry firearms when it is in the fucking US Constitution? Personally sometimes I think I would like to pack heat because of stupid police officers. Just about every big city in the US violates the US Constitution regarding the 2nd Amendment.

Yep. Like I've stated before. MOST LEO's are quite willing to violate the law and trample of civil rights. In other words, criminals.

Where I live you can open carry or conceal carry with no permit.

 

[Winston Smith]

Yep. Like I've stated before. MOST LEO's are quite willing to violate the law and trample of civil rights. In other words, criminals.

Where I live you can open carry or conceal carry with no permit.

I live in Virginia and can open carry, in fact, I have seen sidearms quite a few times here in the unwashed farmland. I could get a concealed permit, but then the feds would definitely know where to look to take my guns.

 

[OhMG]

I live in Virginia and can open carry, in fact, I have seen sidearms quite a few times here in the unwashed farmland. I could get a concealed permit, but then the feds would definitely know where to look to take my guns.

That's good. Virginia understands a portion of the 2nd Amend.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

As a person who is so into 'auditing' I'm surprised you dont recognise trauma of the mental and spiritual kind as possibly being even more damaging than physical abuse Birdie?

Children being indoctrinated from birth via the teachings of hubbard are often damaged far beyond the 'mere' physical, many just don't know it (yet). These lost souls often fail to form normal relationships or mix with non cultic people easily, others are so indoctrinated that they throw their lives down the drain as they follow parents into billion year contracts and/or live with the constant stress of trying to get up the 'bridge' and 'save the planet' via staff contracts. Even the ones that walk away (yippee) often carry the loss of a normal childhood and often lose the family and friends they had in doing so, read Freetoshines story someday for a very real example.

Don't get me started on this subject, but if you are going to defend that idiot hubbard at least be consistent please.

i'm listening to you...

and THANK YOU!

for introducing the topic of psychological trauma in relation to these particular incidents

no one has here noted that coryden also mentions the kid whose incarceration opens "madman or messiah" was taunted by other children on the apollo. if the "devil pin" were pulled out the anchor would drop and the chain would zip out of the chain locker making serious injury or death either likely or inevitable and the other kids were terrorizing and tormenting this four year old boy the way kids everywhere have always tormented other kids saying they were gonna pull it out an making the little tyke beg for mercy

and apparently none of the adults on the ship took them to task (!)

AND SOME OF THOSE ADULTS ARE HERE ON THIS BOARD

but none of them were probably aware of it when it happened and some them might have shooed the other kids off

yeah...

maybe there was some psychological trauma and this is a situation which a dianeticist should recognize as exceptional prone by physical configuration to be likely to restimulate birth and prental engrams. and it could be something that gives lasting trauma. yeah. maybe that kid has nightmares about that today. if he does, it is by reason of underlying engrams

and...

children are normally very resilient. it is likely all the children who spent time in the apollo chain locker got out dusted it off an went back to being kids

unless of course they had a big time serv fac momma who wanted to use the incident for a shrieking make wrong the way the antis everywhere including on this board use it so she made sure the kid cried about it and made sure the kid kept crying bout it and dwelling on it and whining about it the way low toned mommas use children as political tools

but, actually, the social standards on the apollo (apparently, i was never there) though often ... ahem ... questionable were often well above the norm and the general temperment of the place was BE HERE NOW! and so the kids probably just got out of the locker and went back to being kids...

also...

the "indoctrinated from birth" is hereby noted as another issue. on which Co$ has no monopoly

 

[clamicide]

Holy fuck... words just fail me on that last post. That does it... I'm dragging myself out of the house and finishing watching my movie later.

 

[AnonKat]

He put this 4½ year old little boy - Derek Greene - into the chain locker for two days and two nights. It's a closed metal container, it's wet, it's full of water and seaweed, it smells bad. But Derek was sitting up, on the chain, in this place, on his own, in the dark, for two days and two nights... people heard him crying. That is sheer, total brutality. That is child abuse.

 

[AnonKat]

Hubbard had ordered a little girl who was a deafmute down into the chain locker sometime in 1968. Hubbard was going to cure her deaf-ness by shoving her down there! This came to my attention after she'd been there for about a week because the Master at Arms at the time, a beautiful girl, came to me and said, "John, I've got to have you come and see what's going on."

 

[AnonKat]

McMaster remembers once being asked by the Master at Arms to come and help her, He pulled up the wedge from the chain-locker, a dank and unhealthy part of the ship into which offenders were flung without food as a punishment. Out crawled a little girl who turned out to be a deaf-mute who had been unable to write her name and had incurred the Commodore's wrath.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

I've often disagreed with Birdy's viewpoints, but I also had respect for him as well as enjoyed many of his posts. Not anymore.

Birdy I'm disgusted with much of the shit you've spewed forth on this thread. Especially your making light of the child abuse that Hubbard committed on that fuckin Apollo. Plus you've just outright misstated many known facts about that criminally insane asshole.

Disgusting.

you are a highly respected poster lone star, and ever the more so for flying the colors of the great state of texas

and as a texan you are sure to respect that i answered the lady's post before yours and would have even if it it had been posted later

i stand firm with my statements on this thread

i submit i have not made light of either child abuse on the apollo or in general

i am also careful about facts. if you would be so kind as to specify any errors you found i will be happy to examine your statement

it is well noted by all l. ron hubbard has been widely denounced, convicted and condemned as a "criminally insane asshole"

i have on this board declared him GUILTY!!! of occaisionally being a daft and cantankerous magus who is also guilty of that notorious ULTIMATE OFFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of making a buck


i hope you will soon be able to enjoy at least some of my writing. i think myself a fair country wordsmith

i don't like to lose the respect and/or affection of such as you

but...

you know damn well how this sentence would read if it didn't read like this. new hampshiremen, sir, are every inch as honorable and pigheaded as texans

 

[AnonKat]

Affidavit of Monica Pignotti

I also witnessed a fourteen year old boy being locked up in the chain locker of the ship, where he was made to spend the night. The chain locker is a small dark space where the chain to the anchor to the ship is stored when the ship is not at anchor. The boy was being put in the chain locker by three teen-age L. Ron Hubbard messengers. I witnessed this happening several times to people, even though I never experienced it myself.

 

[AnonKat]

Interview with David Mayo (auf Deutsch)

The length of time for children would vary, but no one was there less than a day. The average was a week or two. Three weeks was about the maximum. Age didn't matter. The youngest kids were 5, 6 or 7. Old, young, men, women, big, little; it wouldn't matter because to Scientologists the being is ageless so you don't think in terms of how young or old someone is.

 

[AnonKat]

Little Mark and Tony

The four-year-old boy could no longer cry. He had been nearly 48 hours in the chain locker of the flagship _Apollo_ and his entire body was aching from his efforts to chip off rust. His knees and hands were raw with cuts and bruises. His voice was raspy from crying, and he was desperately afraid.

 

[AnonKat]

From the book "messiah or madman" by bent corydon

The chain locker was dangerous. Located at the very bow of the ship under the water-line. It was the place where the section of the chain not in the water was stored. When the entire chain was brought up it filled most of this comparatively small, wet, dark, and some- times rat-infested locker. The only thing that was holding the chain in the locker was what is called a devil's claw, which was located well above the locker on the deck of the ship. If someone were to kick the claw, the entire chain would be pulled at high speed out of the locker by the weight of the anchor, and anyone down in the locker could very easily get caught in the outgoing chain and be yanked to his death.