Independent Scientology Milestone Two Review of Ruthless by Ron Miscavige

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
<snip>
And like I said, after a while, ignorance becomes a choice. Especially after the YEARS that every one of those people have had to face their demons just like I and others had to face theirs.
<snip>


Yes, the common term for this is "willful ignorance".
The flip side of the same coin is "Confirmation bias.

Typically, willful ignorance and confirmation bias go hand-in-hand.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Willful_ignorance
 
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cakemaker

Patron Meritorious
I don't really have time to watch a 48 minute Theroux video right now. Perhaps there is a specific point in it that you want me to see? If your point is that the MS2 crew are or were hypnotized or the subject of mind control, so was I. So was every other person who stepped out of Scientology to a greater or lesser degree. And like I said, after a while, ignorance becomes a choice. Especially after the YEARS that every one of those people have had to face their demons just like I and others had to face theirs.

It's not that I don't understand the forces at work on a person who is in Scientology. After everything I've written and said on the subject, I'm kind of surprised that anyone would think I don't get that. But continuing to be a Hubbard apologist years after one has gotten out from under the thumb of the authoritarian control system that is Scientology is a reflection of mental capacity just as much as it is a reflection of psychological damage. I know I'm "evaluating" and "invalidating" in saying this. I just get fed up with these guys because, to be totally blunt, it's not just about them. They are so far gone that they want to drag others down with them and they have no excuse for their ignorance except the simple fact that they WON'T look at the evidence right in front of their face.

Sometimes I have my relatively intolerant days. I'm sure tomorrow I'll get over it. Today - this is where I'm at.

"after a while, ignorance becomes a choice"
Really??

Sounds like you're just saying they're responsible for their condition and you're better than they are.
Maybe you are, but it doesn't fix anything.
If the evidence is right in front of them but it doesn't register, then it's not a problem of them not looking.

I think the important thing is HOW to undo their lack of perception than just saying they should snap out of it.

"They are so far gone that they want to drag others down and they have no excuse for their ignorance."

Been there, done that.
 

Chris Shelton

Patron with Honors
"after a while, ignorance becomes a choice"
Really??.

Yes, really.

I'm too tired to argue about this. I don't think I'm better than anyone else. Was not even on my radar.

If you want to defend these people or save them or whatever, go right ahead. I'm not stopping you. As you said, I've been there, done that. Today, I'm just not in the mood. There is zero reason for you to pick a fight with me about it or try to remedy what you appear to think is my lack of compassionate understanding. Believe me, you're definitely solving the wrong problem if you think that's some deficiency I have.
 

Glenda

Crusader
Hi Glenda, (always nice to see you)

You should have written

This is true

ML and ARC :yes::biggrin:

To the mods:

If Glenda gets a special button then I want one too , please :happydance:

I'd like to have a '' Oh my God !!! '' button (OMG)
The triple exclamation marks would be super cool to have incorporated. :yes:

(OMG is used mostly by old women instead of HOLY SHIT! )
:blush:

I am just about to get drunk after 3 glasses of wine! :yes:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯



This is true
ML ARC

Dear Lotus,

Please forgive me for omitting the "this is true" bit. I love it when you do your cramming officer impersonation thing. Remind me to drink wine with you, and then say "Lotus do your cramming officer impersonation thing..." should we ever be under the same roof. :p

Anyway must get on with my clicky button campaign. :)

This is true!!!!
ML & ARC
Glenda


C.S.W.​

To:
  • ESMB administrators
  • ESMB moderators
  • ESMB clicky button I/C
  • ESMB Clicky button D I/C


Situation: I need an "oh for fucks sake" handy clicky button thing to enhance my ESMB experience.

Data: Please make some shit up, I am tired and can't be bothered.

Solution: That an "oh for fucks sake" handy clicky button (with at least 3x exclamation marks) be added to improve my ESMB experience. Yes, everything is about me.

Okay________________________________Not okay_


This is true!!!!!!!! !

ML & ARC
Glenda
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't really have time to watch a 48 minute Theroux video right now. Perhaps there is a specific point in it that you want me to see? If your point is that the MS2 crew are or were hypnotized or the subject of mind control, so was I. So was every other person who stepped out of Scientology to a greater or lesser degree. And like I said, after a while, ignorance becomes a choice. Especially after the YEARS that every one of those people have had to face their demons just like I and others had to face theirs.

It's not that I don't understand the forces at work on a person who is in Scientology. After everything I've written and said on the subject, I'm kind of surprised that anyone would think I don't get that. But continuing to be a Hubbard apologist years after one has gotten out from under the thumb of the authoritarian control system that is Scientology is a reflection of mental capacity just as much as it is a reflection of psychological damage. I know I'm "evaluating" and "invalidating" in saying this. I just get fed up with these guys because, to be totally blunt, it's not just about them. They are so far gone that they want to drag others down with them and they have no excuse for their ignorance except the simple fact that they WON'T look at the evidence right in front of their face.

Sometimes I have my relatively intolerant days. I'm sure tomorrow I'll get over it. Today - this is where I'm at.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

There is soooooooooooo much stuff around that the Faithful have to wilfully ignore (including their own persecution at the hands of their fellow culties) that IMO there is no excuse for any public or staff member to not have doubts about what's happening and start to look.:yes:

When it comes to someone who has supposedly escaped from the cult but is actually shilling for their own peculiar brand of cultism as much as Millstone Too jihadi are, well :duh::duh::duh::duh::duh: just doesn't even begin to express how sad.:screwy:

I've had chats to those who are Millstone Too "public" and they are just peeps who've "come out" from the cult and are making the mistake (so wonderfully and succinctly put by Alanzo) of using $cientology to escape from $cientology - Alanzo put in much better than I.

But the peeps who are in there and trying to make their own cult (yes, I put Jim Logan and Tom Martiniano et al at the top of that particular list) deserve no latitude for their actions. I used to thing heroin was wonderful and I'd promote it too but deep down I knew how bad it was and I usually kept my mouth shut about it. And that was when I was a drugged-up teen with huge issues about all sorts of things. Now I think it's a far, far less harmful thing than Hubbardspew with all its toxic "side effects.":puke:

Most of the Freezoners I know don't sing the praises of Hubbard like these morons do - and I use that term regretfully for they really must be deficient in mental functioning to continually keep that delusory universe going within their minds. The FZers I've personally known all admit to faults in Hubbard that would lead to a public stoning by Logan et al if mentioned within their Bastion of Standard Ronstuff.

Yes I do feel deeply about this. And no it's not just me on a bad day.:biggrin:
 

TrevAnon

Big List researcher
If the evidence is right in front of them but it doesn't register, then it's not a problem of them not looking.

I think a basic ability for everyone has to be to look at facts, especially those contrary to one's beliefs, and evaluate them. One may need more or less time to draw conclusions and change his/her worldview.

It can be really hard to do this, also in science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

However, I'm with Chris here. In light of all the evidence that is available now about LRH, COS, DM there are no more excuses for people who are out as long as those at MS2.
 

cakemaker

Patron Meritorious
I think a basic ability for everyone has to be to look at facts, especially those contrary to one's beliefs, and evaluate them. One may need more or less time to draw conclusions and change his/her worldview.

It can be really hard to do this, also in science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

However, I'm with Chris here. In light of all the evidence that is available now about LRH, COS, DM there are no more excuses for people who are out as long as those at MS2.

How is this any different from any other believer in any religion or conspiracy who, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, believe in the Bible, the Koran, angels, devils, witches, UfO's, contrails, etc. all their life?

It's more complicated than "they don't want to see".
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
"after a while, ignorance becomes a choice"
Really??

Sounds like you're just saying they're responsible for their condition and you're better than they are.
Maybe you are, but it doesn't fix anything.
If the evidence is right in front of them but it doesn't register, then it's not a problem of them not looking.

I think the important thing is HOW to undo their lack of perception than just saying they should snap out of it.

"They are so far gone that they want to drag others down and they have no excuse for their ignorance."

Been there, done that.

I believe that part of the willful ignorance is more willful and less ignorance. They make money off of people caught in the delusion hubbard created (and cos has shown the world that there is a lot of money to be made from it), and they hold a sway over those people who have come to believe their well being is dependent upon "the knowledge of scientology". It's allowing themselves to disregard the obvious harm scientology causes for the greater good, (in this case their income and ego stroking), in effect the ignorance does become a willful choice.
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
How is this any different from any other believer in any religion or conspiracy who, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, believe in the Bible, the Koran, angels, devils, witches, UfO's, contrails, etc. all their life?

It's more complicated than "they don't want to see".

I personally see little difference as they all are indulging in cult-like behaviour to a greater or lesser degree. It doesn't matter whether it's belief in a Big Invisible Sky Daddy, the Free Market or Hubbardspew. It's the DEGREE of fanaticism in one's brand of slavish stupid that's the telling factor, not the belief system itself. When someone totally surrenders to a system and believes it is The Literal Truth that will Solve all Problems then you have a complete fanatic. That scale IMO runs all the way back to confirmed sceptic.
 

cakemaker

Patron Meritorious
I believe that part of the willful ignorance is more willful and less ignorance. They make money off of people caught in the delusion hubbard created (and cos has shown the world that there is a lot of money to be made from it), and they hold a sway over those people who have come to believe their well being is dependent upon "the knowledge of scientology". It's allowing themselves to disregard the obvious harm scientology causes for the greater good, (in this case their income and ego stroking), in effect the ignorance does become a willful choice.

If you know it's not true and you sell it, you're a con artist.

If you really believe it and try to convince others it's true, then you're proselytizing.
The end result of the latter could be good, bad or inconsequential.
 

TrevAnon

Big List researcher
How is this any different from any other believer in any religion or conspiracy who, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, believe in the Bible, the Koran, angels, devils, witches, UfO's, contrails, etc. all their life?

I guess there is no difference. Yes, I know there are people out there who hold on to fundamentalist beliefs, be they Christian, Muslem, Scientology or whatever. I am just not the one to always go try and talk them out of it using reason and proof. Like Chris I have days that I just shake my head. And yes, I also may occasionaly say something if it just happens to come my way.

However: in the end, if people really don't want to look at evidence, there is no reasoning with them.
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
If you know it's not true and you sell it, you're a con artist.

If you really believe it and try to convince others it's true, then you're proselytizing.
The end result of the latter could be good, bad or inconsequential.


If your using processes that bring about altered states of mind and then misleading people into believing a philosophy that takes credit for what is naturally the minds ability, you are creating delusions in OTHER people, and regardless of what YOU believe, it is wrong. People have the ability to muck up the mind of another person, but they never have the right to.
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
If you know it's not true and you sell it, you're a con artist.

If you really believe it and try to convince others it's true, then you're proselytizing.
The end result of the latter could be good, bad or inconsequential.

I've yet to see someone apparently earnestly selling a system like $cientology who wasn't either was a psycho or they actually had (very deeply buried sometimes) misgivings about whether or not they were doing the right thing.

If you actually believe that some system you and few others are privy to has all the answers to the Questions, then you are at least to some degree psycho - because you have to shut out all the disquietening failures that you have witnessed. There is no-one who's been in the cult for any length of time who hasn't seen then ignored a whole bunch of "no results or bad results." It's a personal choice that one makes and quite consciously I believe. If you have a semi-rational being to start with.

I chose to ignore successions of evidence that the group I was part of was actually toxic and that my own "gains" weren't what I'd signed up for. And that those around me didn't "make the grade" either. My decision.

Yes there is a lot of group pressure within a cult to keep the individual believer from questioning. Yes there are a lot of fundamentally hypnotic techniques being used to convince one to keep believing. Yes there is criminal behaviour at the top that is a part of the problem. Yes Hubbard was a nasty malignant narcissist who destroyed anything He thought He needed to to keep his own scam going.

But it suits some people to go along with such a program as it fills some of their own darker desires as well as their altruistic ones. And until someone actually recognises that, they will keep themselves hypnotised - even if they recognise that Hubbard was totally bogus.

And that's why, to me, folk like Jim Logan have far more going on than just a simple mindless devotion to a dead demi-god that they still slavishly follow. His interactions on this Board before Marty's blog gave him a forum more conducive to his personal ambitions were instructive. Chase them down and review them and I think you'll see why I for one will cut him no slack in this matter.
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
I started to write this post three times and erased it and rewrote it, and decided.... I got nothing to add. I think I could argue both sides of what appears to be the issue here.

What is the issue again? LOL

Sorry.
 

cakemaker

Patron Meritorious

That's an excellent article. Thanks.

A while ago Skip Press wrote about a book called "Monsters and Magical Sticks: There's No Such Thing As Hypnosis" by Steven Heller.
Supposedly Hubbard had Heller write some hypnotic scripts for him.
It's a fascinating book which argues that every salesman, politician, and almost everyone, is practicing some form of hypnosis on each other knowingly or unknowingly.
Highly recommended.
 
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