Indie deprogramming document

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RolandRB

Rest in Peace
I would like to free the Freezoners and Indies. The Indies are half way out in any case if they are ex-churchies. I have a deprogramming document that I have placed below but I can not read their minds and do not know what keeps them following Scientology when the very foundations of it are so absurd. Your insights would be valuable.

What trapped you into the Scientology cult and what still keeps you trapped as an "Indie"

1) Social acceptance and shunning
Most of us like to feel we are accepted by our group. When we came across Scientology as
a new group we were "love bombed" a lot so that we felt accepted. We formed friendships
in this new group. Even relationships and then marriage and children. All of this held
together with an implied adherence to Scientology. We know that if we fall out of favour
with Scientology then we lose not only the acceptance of the group but we lose our friends,
out spouses and the love of our children. This is more than people can bear and so we are
careful not to fall out of line with Scientology. And when they ask for money for their
schemes then we give them that money, even if we can not afford it, to keep is as an
accepted member of the group and well regarded.

2) Separation from normal society
Scientology wishes to impose its methods on our lives and deny us access to the normal
mores of society. We are encouraged to become separated from normal society. To do that
then society is demonized in small ways. Like telling us it is all run by drug companies
and psychiatrists. That the world is aberrated with people acting out their "reactive
minds". That it is a "wog world" and the Scientology way of doing things is better. We
are told that reading newspapers and watching TV exposes us to "entheta" and that we will
be happier if we are not exposed to it. Scientology teaches us a different language that
we can not use in the outside world so after a while we become separated from normal
society and fearful of it. Our "safe" society becomes Scientology society.

3) Repression of thinking, doubts and disagreements
We may have thought when we were newly in that some parts of Scientology were wrong. To
get around that they have to demonize thinking. So "thinking" becomes "figure-figure" in
Scientology - a supposed activity of the "reactive mind". And because Scientologists want
to go "Clear" and lose their reactive mind then they stop thinking and in so doing believe
they are defeating their reactive minds. It is quite normal for people in society to have
doubts. If you have doubts in Scientology and check on facts then they will lose you. So
having doubts becomes demonized as "out ethics". To doubt is to be in a "Condition
of Doubt" and this causes you to be shunned from the group until you have proven to the
group that you have overcome this doubt. And there are punishments for disagreement. If
you disagree then this means you have gone past a word you did not understand. So you have
to pay for any spend tens of hours rereading all your Scientology material until you have
found that word you did not understand. And there is always the e-meter to pick up on your
disagreements with Scientology. After a year or so of this constant pressure you will cease
to be able to be critical of Scientology. You will not even have any doubts nor be able to
even think of anything that you are in disagreement with. And we are pressured to do course
after course and we get so tired that we do not have the energy to think outside
Scientology in any case. Everybody gets pressured to join staff. If you join staff and
leave before your contract is up then there will be a huge freeloaders debt you think you
have to pay. The trap is then complete. You can not leave even if you wanted to. You
become a tool of the cult to trap in more people and you will work long hours for very
little money to do just that. Add to that what is in your confessional folders. This is
something you will not want outsiders to know about and whether it was the result of your
imagination or not, this information can and will be used against you if the cult chooses
to do so. The trap has been sprung and you are well and truly caught. You are now a slave
to the cult and now it is your job to enslave new members.

4) The hopes and promises
We would all like immunity from colds and flu, perfect recall and immunity from accidents.
This is the obvious positive benefits of why we joined. But the longer we stay in and
"study" Scientology then gradually these obvious goals get replaced by other goals and the
advantages we hoped for change. The goal posts get moved. The gains we hoped for that were
promised to us change with time until we end up pursuing Scientology goals that we would
never have bee interested in when we joined. The promises of Dianetics Clear was the bait.
But then it got switched to Scientology Clear. And then if we ever got to Scientology
Clear then we did not get the promised gains. Instead, Clear becomes s state where we
realize we are mocking up our own reactive minds (bearing in mind that we had to be
persuaded that there was such a thing as a "reactive mind") and our goals now become the
powers that will open up to us on the OT Levels. Hubbard promised great things about the
OT levels. On L12 he said that he would not let a person leave the ship unless they were
stable exterior with full perception. This was a sky high goal. Of course, for those who
parted with all that money, there was no such state to be attained. Scientology always
dangles the carrot in front of us and when we reach what we have striven for the goal
disappears and the carrot has moved onwards.
If even 5% of the promises of Scientology were true then they would have a huge following.
The reality is that much less than 5% is true. More like 1%.

5) OT Powers
Nobody has gotten OT powers from Scientology auditing in any form even after more than
fifty years of trying. From time to time some strange things might happen but this is the
case from religion and new age practices of all sorts. There is nothing special about
Scientology in this regard. Out-of-body experiences used to be common in early Scientology,
especially with the "Book and Bottle" process (Op Pro by Dup). This was an extremely
repetitive and boring process and it would be no surprise if this had a dissociative mental
affect on people if continued for many hours or days. People from all walks of life and all
religions have religious experiences from time to time and believe they have transcended the
limitations of the normal world. But NONE of these people have an ability that can be
demonstrated on demand. If anybody had such an ability then surely the Randi million dollars
would have been won a long time ago.
Why not put this to the test? You will know a number of people who claim they are OTs
and are stably exterior from their body. If this is the case then they should be able
to read playing cards placed at the back of their heads using their thetan vision or
telepathy or something. Ask to test it on one of these people who make the claim of
being stably exterior. None of them will oblige because they know they can not do this.
Belief in OT powers and the belief that one day that they will be yours to command is
one of the things keeping you trapped in Scientology. Putting it to the test will
disabuse you of this belief.

6) The Axioms of Scientology
Scientology "appears" to be scientific because it is based on axioms. But these axioms
are starting off points rather than self-evident truths. If Scientology followed a
scientific approach then there would come the opportunity to establish these axioms
as truths but nobody has attempted to do this. The case in point of testing supposedly
stably exterior people if they can read a playing card placed at the back of their heads
is something that could have been tested. If they can read the cards then people would
feel justified in the idea that a thetan was something separate from the body and is
just using the body. But this fundamental building block of the system of thought has
never been tested and never will be because people know that it would fail.
You maybe think that because Scientology appears to be scientific then it holds some
validity and is perhaps more "advanced" that other religions or belief systems. However,
it is not following a scientific approach and is not honest science. The axioms are
just being used to dress a sham.

7) The Axioms of Dianetics
Dianetics has a set of axioms as well and yet Dianetics is dropped in favour of
Scientology very early on in a person's "processing". No more will you hear about the
moments of unconsciousness where words command you. It is all unceremoniously dropped
in favour of Scientology processing at twenty times the cost. If the axioms are good
for Scientology then why do they get dumped for Dianetics in favour of a more expensive
form of processing? This should make you think.

8) Past Lives
If you could genuinely remember past lives then there would be something of value you
could sell to the world. If you had studied science at school in your past lives then
you could come up with the design for a home nuclear fusion generator or an eternal
battery or some such other obvious useful device. Even if all your past lives lacked
a science education and you were a soldier or a slave for all your past lifetimes then
there would still be something you could sell like card, dice or board games that you
could remember and market today. Instead, there is nothing useful from anybody who
claims to remember past lives. One might conclude that all these supposed past life
memories are a fabrication.

9) Past Lives doing Scientology
If you are an "Indie" and remember "past lives" then at some stage you will remember
past lives in "Scientology" or some such other system and will have encountered L. Ron
Hubbard and/or David Miscavige in your past life efforts in working towards some sort of
religion to free Mankind. I am happy to let you know that you are not that stupid. If this
were the case then Scientology or whatever it was known as in your past lives would have
been put on a scientific foundation (i.e. axioms that were proven) millions of years ago
and from your past lives you would know what was proven and how to prove it to put the
religion on a firm scientific basis. Oh, but you were not on tech lines! You didn't have
the tech explained to you because you were too busy helping in other ways. Same for all
Indies here now. None of them here were tech people so they don't know about what tech
works. Hubbard did but for some odd reason, he got nothing to work so maybe he was full
of shit in his past life the same as he was in this one.
The reason you have these "memories" is because through doing "auditing" your brain has
learned to fabricate them.

10) How thetans got tricked and enslaved by meat body societies
L. Ron Hubbard described the "principal incidents" that got thetans trapped. Just Google
"incident Scientology wiki" and read up on "Aircraft Door Goals", "Bear Goals",
"Gorilla Goals", "Train Goals" and others. Think of the logistics of this. Think of the
industry required to accomplish this in the millions and how thetans somehow did not twig
on that anything was wrong. How many aircraft fuselages on the ground would be needed to
implant millions or billions of thetans? How would it be kept a secret from other thetans?
Same with the "Bear Goals" and "Gorilla Goals" with the Hoi Poloi in striped funfare
attendent shirts somehow strapping thetans into their seats before they take a ride and
get zapped by electronic explosions to give them opposing commands. Just what does it
take to get your "bullshit alarm" to go off?
Quite apart from the nonsense story and the impossible logistics then think of how much
money it would have cost to engage in such an activity. This is funding a civilisation
at war. Somebody would have leant that money and wanted back payment with interest. But
there would be no financial benefit from this activity so it does not make sense.
And if a civilisation is that militaristic then if thetans were real then would they not
be useful for spying on their enemies?
Children playing with dolls spontaneously create better stories than this one. That you
accepted this as truth implies you have weaker minds than children. Were you like that
before you got into Scientology?

11) Xenu and body thetans
If you accepted the story of Xenu and body thetans then this should be a strong indicator
that your mind has become weakened by doing Scientology. This story that adults believe
in in Scientology is something to be laughed at by children. It is just such a weak and
absurd story. The logistics of the movement of bodies across space with people not
noticing people disappearing after their income tax audits is clearly absurd. The
placement of bodies round volcanoes, some of which did not exist 75 million years ago
and the logistics and infrastructure to accomplish this is absurd. If the bodies were
"frozen in alcohol and glycol" then why not dump them all on a frozen body in space like
Pluto? Each solar system likely has an ice belt so dump them there. The story is absurd
and weak beyond believe. It is fourth rate science fiction sold expensively as spiritual
truth. An mentally competent adult human being should be ashamed of themselves for believing
such puerile nonsense.
And what of the body thetans? How come they can be Cleared in seconds if we are the boss
thetan and it takes us years? If they are real then you could send them somewhere to report
back on what is there. You could set up a very successful line of espionage if they were
real. You can't because, of course, they are not real. I know some Indies think that
something like the Xenu story happened but maybe did not happen as Hubbard described but
they go on to audit out their body thetans for hundreds or thousands of hours without
anyone in more than fifty years establishing the validity of these body thetans.
If you consider yourself to be mentally competent then do not let the human race down
by believing in and practising such nonsense.

12) The wasted years
It may take twenty years or more and hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted before a
person realizes that Scientology has not given them what they wanted out of life. They
will never get that twenty years back. If the person is an intelligent person then they
will not want to allow themselves to feel the shame of all those wasted years of their
life. They will not see Hubbard as a liar and a con man who duped them out of their money
and the best years of their life. It is better for their own pride if they carry on down
the same path and justify their sacrifices. These are now your leaders and "tech terminals"
in the Indie movement. Hopefully, you can face your decisions of the past with more honesty.

99) The "Wog World" needs you back
You were once a part of the "wog world". Your good intentions got you into Scientology.
I hope you spend time thinking through the above points and see what is keeping you
stuck in Scientology and so break those chains. The "Wog World" needs your good intentions
and your efforts in making this world a better place and I hope that one day you will
rejoin it.

Copyright (C) Roland Rashleigh-Berry, May 2013. Permission is granted to anyone to
reproduce this in any form so long as the original is used plus this copyright notice
displayed with it.
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Nice summary.

A person can leave official Scientology but their SCN thinking will probably last for at least several more years after that.
And, for some, the remainder of their life.
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
Question for RolandRB: How would you dispute Hubbard's "Games Theory?" I would consider myself a "Free Scientologist," because I've found that LRH's theory of games to be beneficial in my own life.
 

OutToe83

Patron with Honors
Question for RolandRB: How would you dispute Hubbard's "Games Theory?" I would consider myself a "Free Scientologist," because I've found that LRH's theory of games to be beneficial in my own life.

I know you didn't address the question to me, but since you asked, you've posed the point that apparently you feel you've benefitted from LRH's writings. I can't dispute the actual benefit you received vs the price you paid (aka, value), since I don't have any quantitative measure of either and don't know how I _could_ have. I will say that I also received some value from being exposed to Scientology and Scientologists over several years, but in my considered opinion, 40 years later and knowing a lot more about the world, what I paid in money, valuable time, personal loss, sacrificed integrity and general head-fuck (for lack of a better word, but most everybody here knows exactly what I mean) was NOT worth the benefits. It was piss-poor value. At best.

About those benefits: The fact that I was enrollable in Scientology demonstrates that I was open to new and different thinking--it seems very likely in retrospect that I would eventually--sometime during those years I was "stuck" in my Scn beliefs--have explored some other line of learning that called to me, and gained other equally valuable benefits, benefits that fit into my life without being enmeshed in the shitcluster that the Scn bennies came with.

I don't know how deep your involvement was in the Church in terms of time and money, but if you had, for instance, spent the same time, money, work, diligence and emotional investment in studying any of several fields (economics, political science, psychology, sociology to name a few), there is a very good chance you would have taken an actual class in Game Theory and learned more than LRH could teach you.

The reason I don't think there's much chance that Hubbard knew more than a few dollops (at best) of game theory is that real understanding of game theory requires higher math. Calculus is about the minimum requirement. And His Devine Hubbardness actually admitted that He couldn't make heads nor tails of Calculus and went on to say that Calculus wasn't actually useful for anything--that you couldn't do anything with it. I actually heard more than one person say that when I was in school, and it flabbergasted me (I was an engineering student and used it every day to solve problems that lower math can't handle)--It took me awhile to work out that although they had taken Calculus, they were working toward a liberal arts degree and not a field that actually required calculus, so they thought it was only useful for working out areas of odd-shaped fields. They never saw its essentialness in science and engineering.

And neither did Hubbard because He didn't get far enough in His schooling to see its use, even if He had managed to pass calculus, which He didn't. But I'm starting to wander from the question you posed.

Again, I realize you posed the question to RolandRB and I don't presume to know how he might have responded. And again, since the question was raised, I would like to suggest a response: My response, since that is the only one I can give.

Question: How would I dispute Hubbard's "Games Theory?"
Answer: I wouldn't bother.
I've never read Hubbard's "Games Theory", other than a dollop or so about people (thetans) wanting to play games, and a game requires some barrier(s)/difficulty or it isn't a game; and the barrier/difficulty can't be insurmountable because that's not a game either. So I have to infer that Hubbard wrote more than that, if you think what you gained from it is sufficient to keep you practicing Scientology long after it's been shown to have come out of LRH's imagination. Or do you actually believe the Xenu story, in the light of current knowledge about geology? Do you actually believe that Ron almost got run down by a freight train on Venus, now that we know it to be the most hellish planetary surface in the solar system?

But back to why I wouldn't bother: I haven't read Hubbard's "Games Theory", therefore I wouldn't dispute it.
I have read several of His other books, and the Man is an outrageous Liar, claims research that He clearly never did, and can NOT be trusted at any level. I am not inclined to invest my time in reading the work of such a Man, because I have no reason to believe I'll receive any benefit from it. If I want to learn about game theory, I'll start with Wikipedia and, if the subject calls to me, go from there to other recommended sources.

This is a personal policy I apply not just to Scientology: When I discover that a person absolutely is dishonest, I don't waste my time trying to filter out the worthwhile from the garbage: I just don't bother to read that person any more.

It's entirely possible that His Devine Hubbardness wrote something worthwhile about game theory, but He certainly isn't my first choice to invest my time and effort. If somebody else on the board has anything to say about it, I'd be interested to hear.


(I also haven't read the full theory and math of epicycles to calculate the motions of the sun, moon and planets revolving around the Earth, so I won't dispute that either. If I should need to calculate a planetary orbit, I prefer to use something that actually works--namely a sun-centered solar system model, and calculus. But I wouldn't bother with disputing something that, while it was better than nothing, ultimately couldn't be made to work with reliability.)

((IRRELEVANT NOTE: Some of you may have noticed that I capitalized all the nouns or pronouns that refer to LRH. This is in keeping with the convention of how one treats nouns and pronouns that refer to God. Hubbard has set himself up as a God in His religion, even if He didn't actually say so: It IS a religion, there is no higher Authority than He, and His Word settles all disputes. I no longer believe as Scientologists do, but out of deference to Scientologists' sensitivities (demonstrably thin-skinned), I decided to show them the courtesy of treating references to His Devine Hubbardness with proper nouns and pronouns, just as I do with the Judeo-Christian El/Yahweh/Jehovah/God, about Whom I also have doubts. Although in His (Yahweh's) case, I suspect a lot more alteration between His Word and the Sacred Scriptures. And definitely a lot of editing. DM is not unique. He's following a well-established historical pattern of correcting what his God intended to say but wasn't quite eloquent enough.))
 
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Francois Tremblay

Patron with Honors
Question for RolandRB: How would you dispute Hubbard's "Games Theory?" I would consider myself a "Free Scientologist," because I've found that LRH's theory of games to be beneficial in my own life.

Yes, Ol' Tubbo did have the basics of it right, but it doesn't take too much brainpower to figure out that a game must have rules, that players must have some purpose, and that there must be freedoms, limitations and obstacles. All of this is not hard to figure out, if one is willing to deal in abstractions. But that's all he got right. Incidentally, there are things he got wrong, even on the basics, too. So "LRH's theory of games," as you say, is strictly hack work.

If you want real games theory (in the way Hubbard meant the term and not in the mathematical sense), then read the book Finite and Infinite Games. by James Carse. It's far more valuable as a theory of games in life, far more receptive to the complexities of societies and life, far more applicable to society and life, than Ol' Tubbo's bullshit.
 

Hypatia

Pagan
Of course some people feel like they derived some benefit. That's kinda the hook, right?

You can like whatever you wish...but why not go forward and look at other things Scio doesn't say or address?
 

svonhatten

Patron with Honors
Yes, Ol' Tubbo did have the basics of it right, but it doesn't take too much brainpower to figure out that a game must have rules, that players must have some purpose, and that there must be freedoms, limitations and obstacles. All of this is not hard to figure out, if one is willing to deal in abstractions. But that's all he got right. Incidentally, there are things he got wrong, even on the basics, too. So "LRH's theory of games," as you say, is strictly hack work.

If you want real games theory (in the way Hubbard meant the term and not in the mathematical sense), then read the book Finite and Infinite Games. by James Carse. It's far more valuable as a theory of games in life, far more receptive to the complexities of societies and life, far more applicable to society and life, than Ol' Tubbo's bullshit.

Thank you. I'll check this book out. It should make for some interesting reading.
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
I know you didn't address the question to me, but since you asked, you've posed the point that apparently you feel you've benefitted from LRH's writings. I can't dispute the actual benefit you received vs the price you paid (aka, value), since I don't have any quantitative measure of either and don't know how I _could_ have. I will say that I also received some value from being exposed to Scientology and Scientologists over several years, but in my considered opinion, 40 years later and knowing a lot more about the world, what I paid in money, valuable time, personal loss, sacrificed integrity and general head-fuck (for lack of a better word, but most everybody here knows exactly what I mean) was NOT worth the benefits. It was piss-poor value. At best.

About those benefits: )


You are giving Hubbard too much credit, he had no real understanding of actual Games Theory. (He just made up a bunch of bullshit he also called Games Theory to give it credence) Hell, Hubbard's idea of statistics is absurd and shows a man who had no understanding of higher mathematics whatsoever. Like lots of subjects Hubbard probably read a paragraph or two summarizing "Games Theory," or maybe an article about it being used on the Prisoners Dilemma in the early 1950s, and after five minutes of reading decided he was an expert on it and commenced making up bullshit using the term so he would sound smart to people who didn't know any better.

Seriously, I'm no mathematician but even I immediately recognized that Hubbard's idea of statistics was literally retarded and revealed just how much of an absolute fraud and dimwit he really was. But boy oh boy did he LOVE using scientific sounding terms, very big specific numbers and mathematic terminology to fool people into thinking he knew what he was talking about. It would have only taken two minutes with a real scientist or mathematician to blow his bullshit out of the water, hence why he avoided them like the plague. (Same reason he hated and vilified psychiatrists and doctors too)
 

phenomanon

Canyon
I know you didn't address the question to me, but since you asked, you've posed the point that apparently you feel you've benefitted from LRH's writings. I can't dispute the actual benefit you received vs the price you paid (aka, value), since I don't have any quantitative measure of either and don't know how I _could_ have. I will say that I also received some value from being exposed to Scientology and Scientologists over several years, but in my considered opinion, 40 years later and knowing a lot more about the world, what I paid in money, valuable time, personal loss, sacrificed integrity and general head-fuck (for lack of a better word, but most everybody here knows exactly what I mean) was NOT worth the benefits. It was piss-poor value. At best.

About those benefits: The fact that I was enrollable in Scientology demonstrates that I was open to new and different thinking--it seems very likely in retrospect that I would eventually--sometime during those years I was "stuck" in my Scn beliefs--have explored some other line of learning that called to me, and gained other equally valuable benefits, benefits that fit into my life without being enmeshed in the shitcluster that the Scn bennies came with.

I don't know how deep your involvement was in the Church in terms of time and money, but if you had, for instance, spent the same time, money, work, diligence and emotional investment in studying any of several fields (economics, political science, psychology, sociology to name a few), there is a very good chance you would have taken an actual class in Game Theory and learned more than LRH could teach you.

The reason I don't think there's much chance that Hubbard knew more than a few dollops (at best) of game theory is that real understanding of game theory requires higher math. Calculus is about the minimum requirement. And His Devine Hubbardness actually admitted that He couldn't make heads nor tails of Calculus and went on to say that Calculus wasn't actually useful for anything--that you couldn't do anything with it. I actually heard more than one person say that when I was in school, and it flabbergasted me (I was an engineering student and used it every day to solve problems that lower math can't handle)--It took me awhile to work out that although they had taken Calculus, they were working toward a liberal arts degree and not a field that actually required calculus, so they thought it was only useful for working out areas of odd-shaped fields. They never saw its essentialness in science and engineering.

And neither did Hubbard because He didn't get far enough in His schooling to see its use, even if He had managed to pass calculus, which He didn't. But I'm starting to wander from the question you posed.

Again, I realize you posed the question to RolandRB and I don't presume to know how he might have responded. And again, since the question was raised, I would like to suggest a response: My response, since that is the only one I can give.

Question: How would I dispute Hubbard's "Games Theory?"
Answer: I wouldn't bother.
I've never read Hubbard's "Games Theory", other than a dollop or so about people (thetans) wanting to play games, and a game requires some barrier(s)/difficulty or it isn't a game; and the barrier/difficulty can't be insurmountable because that's not a game either. So I have to infer that Hubbard wrote more than that, if you think what you gained from it is sufficient to keep you practicing Scientology long after it's been shown to have come out of LRH's imagination. Or do you actually believe the Xenu story, in the light of current knowledge about geology? Do you actually believe that Ron almost got run down by a freight train on Venus, now that we know it to be the most hellish planetary surface in the solar system?

But back to why I wouldn't bother: I haven't read Hubbard's "Games Theory", therefore I wouldn't dispute it.
I have read several of His other books, and the Man is an outrageous Liar, claims research that He clearly never did, and can NOT be trusted at any level. I am not inclined to invest my time in reading the work of such a Man, because I have no reason to believe I'll receive any benefit from it. If I want to learn about game theory, I'll start with Wikipedia and, if the subject calls to me, go from there to other recommended sources.

This is a personal policy I apply not just to Scientology: When I discover that a person absolutely is dishonest, I don't waste my time trying to filter out the worthwhile from the garbage: I just don't bother to read that person any more.

It's entirely possible that His Devine Hubbardness wrote something worthwhile about game theory, but He certainly isn't my first choice to invest my time and effort. If somebody else on the board has anything to say about it, I'd be interested to hear.


(I also haven't read the full theory and math of epicycles to calculate the motions of the sun, moon and planets revolving around the Earth, so I won't dispute that either. If I should need to calculate a planetary orbit, I prefer to use something that actually works--namely a sun-centered solar system model, and calculus. But I wouldn't bother with disputing something that, while it was better than nothing, ultimately couldn't be made to work with reliability.)

((IRRELEVANT NOTE: Some of you may have noticed that I capitalized all the nouns or pronouns that refer to LRH. This is in keeping with the convention of how one treats nouns and pronouns that refer to God. Hubbard has set himself up as a God in His religion, even if He didn't actually say so: It IS a religion, there is no higher Authority than He, and His Word settles all disputes. I no longer believe as Scientologists do, but out of deference to Scientologists' sensitivities (demonstrably thin-skinned), I decided to show them the courtesy of treating references to His Devine Hubbardness with proper nouns and pronouns, just as I do with the Judeo-Christian El/Yahweh/Jehovah/God, about Whom I also have doubts. Although in His (Yahweh's) case, I suspect a lot more alteration between His Word and the Sacred Scriptures. And definitely a lot of editing. DM is not unique. He's following a well-established historical pattern of correcting what his God intended to say but wasn't quite eloquent enough.))


A book that I liked way back when was named " Games People Play". I don't remember who wrote it.
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
A book that I liked way back when was named " Games People Play". I don't remember who wrote it.

Games_People_Play_1969.jpg


I also read this, late in my time in scn. I had a nighttime "wog job" where I had little to do but read. This was one of the books I read. This may be the cover you remember -- it was very popular.

This didn't seem like the "evil" scn made all psych treatment out to be. I even mentioned this opinion to a couple people in scn. I actually didn't get in ethics trouble, but it certainly aroused a lot of suspicion and concern. This was when I was beginning to realize that instead of freeing people, scn was really making them more closed-minded and afraid.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
I would like to free the Freezoners and Indies. The Indies are half way out in any case if they are ex-churchies. I have a deprogramming document that I have placed below but I can not read their minds and do not know what keeps them following Scientology when the very foundations of it are so absurd. Your insights would be valuable.

What trapped you into the Scientology cult and what still keeps you trapped as an "Indie"

1) Social acceptance and shunning
Most of us like to feel we are accepted by our group. When we came across Scientology as
a new group we were "love bombed" a lot so that we felt accepted. We formed friendships
in this new group. Even relationships and then marriage and children. All of this held
together with an implied adherence to Scientology. We know that if we fall out of favour
with Scientology then we lose not only the acceptance of the group but we lose our friends,
out spouses and the love of our children. This is more than people can bear and so we are
careful not to fall out of line with Scientology. And when they ask for money for their
schemes then we give them that money, even if we can not afford it, to keep is as an
accepted member of the group and well regarded.

2) Separation from normal society
Scientology wishes to impose its methods on our lives and deny us access to the normal
mores of society. We are encouraged to become separated from normal society. To do that
then society is demonized in small ways. Like telling us it is all run by drug companies
and psychiatrists. That the world is aberrated with people acting out their "reactive
minds". That it is a "wog world" and the Scientology way of doing things is better. We
are told that reading newspapers and watching TV exposes us to "entheta" and that we will
be happier if we are not exposed to it. Scientology teaches us a different language that
we can not use in the outside world so after a while we become separated from normal
society and fearful of it. Our "safe" society becomes Scientology society.

3) Repression of thinking, doubts and disagreements
We may have thought when we were newly in that some parts of Scientology were wrong. To
get around that they have to demonize thinking. So "thinking" becomes "figure-figure" in
Scientology - a supposed activity of the "reactive mind". And because Scientologists want
to go "Clear" and lose their reactive mind then they stop thinking and in so doing believe
they are defeating their reactive minds. It is quite normal for people in society to have
doubts. If you have doubts in Scientology and check on facts then they will lose you. So
having doubts becomes demonized as "out ethics". To doubt is to be in a "Condition
of Doubt" and this causes you to be shunned from the group until you have proven to the
group that you have overcome this doubt. And there are punishments for disagreement. If
you disagree then this means you have gone past a word you did not understand. So you have
to pay for any spend tens of hours rereading all your Scientology material until you have
found that word you did not understand. And there is always the e-meter to pick up on your
disagreements with Scientology. After a year or so of this constant pressure you will cease
to be able to be critical of Scientology. You will not even have any doubts nor be able to
even think of anything that you are in disagreement with. And we are pressured to do course
after course and we get so tired that we do not have the energy to think outside
Scientology in any case. Everybody gets pressured to join staff. If you join staff and
leave before your contract is up then there will be a huge freeloaders debt you think you
have to pay. The trap is then complete. You can not leave even if you wanted to. You
become a tool of the cult to trap in more people and you will work long hours for very
little money to do just that. Add to that what is in your confessional folders. This is
something you will not want outsiders to know about and whether it was the result of your
imagination or not, this information can and will be used against you if the cult chooses
to do so. The trap has been sprung and you are well and truly caught. You are now a slave
to the cult and now it is your job to enslave new members.

4) The hopes and promises
We would all like immunity from colds and flu, perfect recall and immunity from accidents.
This is the obvious positive benefits of why we joined. But the longer we stay in and
"study" Scientology then gradually these obvious goals get replaced by other goals and the
advantages we hoped for change. The goal posts get moved. The gains we hoped for that were
promised to us change with time until we end up pursuing Scientology goals that we would
never have bee interested in when we joined. The promises of Dianetics Clear was the bait.
But then it got switched to Scientology Clear. And then if we ever got to Scientology
Clear then we did not get the promised gains. Instead, Clear becomes s state where we
realize we are mocking up our own reactive minds (bearing in mind that we had to be
persuaded that there was such a thing as a "reactive mind") and our goals now become the
powers that will open up to us on the OT Levels. Hubbard promised great things about the
OT levels. On L12 he said that he would not let a person leave the ship unless they were
stable exterior with full perception. This was a sky high goal. Of course, for those who
parted with all that money, there was no such state to be attained. Scientology always
dangles the carrot in front of us and when we reach what we have striven for the goal
disappears and the carrot has moved onwards.
If even 5% of the promises of Scientology were true then they would have a huge following.
The reality is that much less than 5% is true. More like 1%.

5) OT Powers
Nobody has gotten OT powers from Scientology auditing in any form even after more than
fifty years of trying. From time to time some strange things might happen but this is the
case from religion and new age practices of all sorts. There is nothing special about
Scientology in this regard. Out-of-body experiences used to be common in early Scientology,
especially with the "Book and Bottle" process (Op Pro by Dup). This was an extremely
repetitive and boring process and it would be no surprise if this had a dissociative mental
affect on people if continued for many hours or days. People from all walks of life and all
religions have religious experiences from time to time and believe they have transcended the
limitations of the normal world. But NONE of these people have an ability that can be
demonstrated on demand. If anybody had such an ability then surely the Randi million dollars
would have been won a long time ago.
Why not put this to the test? You will know a number of people who claim they are OTs
and are stably exterior from their body. If this is the case then they should be able
to read playing cards placed at the back of their heads using their thetan vision or
telepathy or something. Ask to test it on one of these people who make the claim of
being stably exterior. None of them will oblige because they know they can not do this.
Belief in OT powers and the belief that one day that they will be yours to command is
one of the things keeping you trapped in Scientology. Putting it to the test will
disabuse you of this belief.

6) The Axioms of Scientology
Scientology "appears" to be scientific because it is based on axioms. But these axioms
are starting off points rather than self-evident truths. If Scientology followed a
scientific approach then there would come the opportunity to establish these axioms
as truths but nobody has attempted to do this. The case in point of testing supposedly
stably exterior people if they can read a playing card placed at the back of their heads
is something that could have been tested. If they can read the cards then people would
feel justified in the idea that a thetan was something separate from the body and is
just using the body. But this fundamental building block of the system of thought has
never been tested and never will be because people know that it would fail.
You maybe think that because Scientology appears to be scientific then it holds some
validity and is perhaps more "advanced" that other religions or belief systems. However,
it is not following a scientific approach and is not honest science. The axioms are
just being used to dress a sham.

7) The Axioms of Dianetics
Dianetics has a set of axioms as well and yet Dianetics is dropped in favour of
Scientology very early on in a person's "processing". No more will you hear about the
moments of unconsciousness where words command you. It is all unceremoniously dropped
in favour of Scientology processing at twenty times the cost. If the axioms are good
for Scientology then why do they get dumped for Dianetics in favour of a more expensive
form of processing? This should make you think.

8) Past Lives
If you could genuinely remember past lives then there would be something of value you
could sell to the world. If you had studied science at school in your past lives then
you could come up with the design for a home nuclear fusion generator or an eternal
battery or some such other obvious useful device. Even if all your past lives lacked
a science education and you were a soldier or a slave for all your past lifetimes then
there would still be something you could sell like card, dice or board games that you
could remember and market today. Instead, there is nothing useful from anybody who
claims to remember past lives. One might conclude that all these supposed past life
memories are a fabrication.

9) Past Lives doing Scientology
If you are an "Indie" and remember "past lives" then at some stage you will remember
past lives in "Scientology" or some such other system and will have encountered L. Ron
Hubbard and/or David Miscavige in your past life efforts in working towards some sort of
religion to free Mankind. I am happy to let you know that you are not that stupid. If this
were the case then Scientology or whatever it was known as in your past lives would have
been put on a scientific foundation (i.e. axioms that were proven) millions of years ago
and from your past lives you would know what was proven and how to prove it to put the
religion on a firm scientific basis. Oh, but you were not on tech lines! You didn't have
the tech explained to you because you were too busy helping in other ways. Same for all
Indies here now. None of them here were tech people so they don't know about what tech
works. Hubbard did but for some odd reason, he got nothing to work so maybe he was full
of shit in his past life the same as he was in this one.
The reason you have these "memories" is because through doing "auditing" your brain has
learned to fabricate them.

10) How thetans got tricked and enslaved by meat body societies
L. Ron Hubbard described the "principal incidents" that got thetans trapped. Just Google
"incident Scientology wiki" and read up on "Aircraft Door Goals", "Bear Goals",
"Gorilla Goals", "Train Goals" and others. Think of the logistics of this. Think of the
industry required to accomplish this in the millions and how thetans somehow did not twig
on that anything was wrong. How many aircraft fuselages on the ground would be needed to
implant millions or billions of thetans? How would it be kept a secret from other thetans?
Same with the "Bear Goals" and "Gorilla Goals" with the Hoi Poloi in striped funfare
attendent shirts somehow strapping thetans into their seats before they take a ride and
get zapped by electronic explosions to give them opposing commands. Just what does it
take to get your "bullshit alarm" to go off?
Quite apart from the nonsense story and the impossible logistics then think of how much
money it would have cost to engage in such an activity. This is funding a civilisation
at war. Somebody would have leant that money and wanted back payment with interest. But
there would be no financial benefit from this activity so it does not make sense.
And if a civilisation is that militaristic then if thetans were real then would they not
be useful for spying on their enemies?
Children playing with dolls spontaneously create better stories than this one. That you
accepted this as truth implies you have weaker minds than children. Were you like that
before you got into Scientology?

11) Xenu and body thetans
If you accepted the story of Xenu and body thetans then this should be a strong indicator
that your mind has become weakened by doing Scientology. This story that adults believe
in in Scientology is something to be laughed at by children. It is just such a weak and
absurd story. The logistics of the movement of bodies across space with people not
noticing people disappearing after their income tax audits is clearly absurd. The
placement of bodies round volcanoes, some of which did not exist 75 million years ago
and the logistics and infrastructure to accomplish this is absurd. If the bodies were
"frozen in alcohol and glycol" then why not dump them all on a frozen body in space like
Pluto? Each solar system likely has an ice belt so dump them there. The story is absurd
and weak beyond believe. It is fourth rate science fiction sold expensively as spiritual
truth. An mentally competent adult human being should be ashamed of themselves for believing
such puerile nonsense.
And what of the body thetans? How come they can be Cleared in seconds if we are the boss
thetan and it takes us years? If they are real then you could send them somewhere to report
back on what is there. You could set up a very successful line of espionage if they were
real. You can't because, of course, they are not real. I know some Indies think that
something like the Xenu story happened but maybe did not happen as Hubbard described but
they go on to audit out their body thetans for hundreds or thousands of hours without
anyone in more than fifty years establishing the validity of these body thetans.
If you consider yourself to be mentally competent then do not let the human race down
by believing in and practising such nonsense.

12) The wasted years
It may take twenty years or more and hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted before a
person realizes that Scientology has not given them what they wanted out of life. They
will never get that twenty years back. If the person is an intelligent person then they
will not want to allow themselves to feel the shame of all those wasted years of their
life. They will not see Hubbard as a liar and a con man who duped them out of their money
and the best years of their life. It is better for their own pride if they carry on down
the same path and justify their sacrifices. These are now your leaders and "tech terminals"
in the Indie movement. Hopefully, you can face your decisions of the past with more honesty.

99) The "Wog World" needs you back
You were once a part of the "wog world". Your good intentions got you into Scientology.
I hope you spend time thinking through the above points and see what is keeping you
stuck in Scientology and so break those chains. The "Wog World" needs your good intentions
and your efforts in making this world a better place and I hope that one day you will
rejoin it.

Copyright (C) Roland Rashleigh-Berry, May 2013. Permission is granted to anyone to
reproduce this in any form so long as the original is used plus this copyright notice
displayed with it.

What a load of garbage.
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
What a load of garbage.

No more than what you explain Leon, and it actually makes a lot of sense, from the outside looking in I guess. :confused2:
And let us remember dear Roland B. , died way too frikken young, RIP Roland, you were a real spark of a person matey, greatly missed.
:(

Now go bash someone who's still alive.

Edit~ Odd time of Roland's post up here ^^^, if this is the same person~ https://whyweprotest.net/threads/rip-roland-rashleigh-berry.131526/ So possibly I am slightly confused (no big anything), I apologise to anyone I meant to offend....
Not really, I'r a pirate/asshole

Ignore this blather, Roland is dead. :heartflower: Happy trails mon. :cheers:

:p
 
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
You are giving Hubbard too much credit, he had no real understanding of actual Games Theory. (He just made up a bunch of bullshit he also called Games Theory to give it credence)

Are you sure he used the term "Games Theory"? I know he used "games condition" and "no-games condition". And Chapter 5 of the book Problems of Work is called "Life as a Game" and talks about games consisting of freedoms, barriers and purposes etc. But I don't recall him using the term "Games Theory."

Paul
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
A book that I liked way back when was named " Games People Play". I don't remember who wrote it.

There's a whole "thing" about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

Transactional analysis is a psychoanalytic therapy wherein social transactions are analyzed to determine the ego state of the patient (whether parent-like, child-like, or adult-like) as a basis for understanding behavior.<snip>

Several years ago, when I was using www.robocounsellor.com for my "mainstream" robot modules like Rogerian Counselling and Tabletop Psychodrama, I made up a Transactional Analysis module. I don't remember if I ever put it online. Although it was kinda cute and (as much as was realistic) followed Berne's procedures, I eventually decided it wasn't close enough to real life to be worth supporting.

EDIT: Looking in the Wayback machine, I see I did have it online for a while in 2010 or so. The formatting looks a bit weird because it was inside a Drupal installation, which hasn't been preserved in the archive. I think I left it up for too long because (1) I didn't have many other "mainstream" modules, and (2) it was a cute module and I was showing off. :)

Ooh, look, an 11/11/2009 press release about it: https://www.newswire.com/robocounsellor-delivers-transactional/10589. Heh. Excerpt:

Background: Eric Berne developed Transactional Analysis and detailed it in his 1964 book, "Games People Play". The general idea is that at any one time a person is governed by one of three "ego states", called "Parent", "Adult" and "Child." "Adult" is sensible and rational, and the other two are hangovers from the past. A person whining about an uncomfortable job assignment, for instance, is probably unconsciously acting out of a Child state at that moment. The standard Transactional Analysis approach involves getting the client to explore times she behaved in such a manner and to decide which state she was operating from at the time, hopefully with a view to changing her future behaviour to a more Adult kind.

In RoboCounsellor Transactional Analysis sessions, the user will similarly explore such "out of character" behaviours. However, in addition to the above analysis, the client is first invited to role-play the "right" behaviour, on the theory that if she has been in the habit of doing it wrong for 15 years she could certainly use some practice in doing it right. Then, if desired, the client can do a deeper probe into the exact identity of the person she has been unknowingly channelling, so to speak. She would do this with a view to blowing off that unwanted identity and becoming able to act simply as herself in future similar situations.

Paul
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
What a load of garbage.

Papy leon,

How about you channel him on target two to flow him ''entheta'' about his writings??

This is one of his last attempt to help his fellow $cientologists who wanna leave the $cientology sick mindset...
Actually, this document ( he left behind ) is a legacy that tells about his genuine concern for others, including you (but according to your comment, you can't now imagine it out of the $cn bubble )

I won't , any longer, disturb your theta reading:

L Ron Hubbard : My admissions : My lifetime legacy of a humanitarian and scientist.

And I (we) wish Roland have found heavens and peace!
 
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BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
Are you sure he used the term "Games Theory"? I know he used "games condition" and "no-games condition". And Chapter 5 of the book Problems of Work is called "Life as a Game" and talks about games consisting of freedoms, barriers and purposes etc. But I don't recall him using the term "Games Theory."

Paul

No, I do not know if he ever used the actual term Games Theory. I had only heard the terms you quoted above but this post:

Question for RolandRB: How would you dispute Hubbard's "Games Theory?" I would consider myself a "Free Scientologist," because I've found that LRH's theory of games to be beneficial in my own life.

And then the next poster expounding upon the subject made me assume Hubbard had used the term at some point. I'd actually be surprised if he didn't just because the man had such incredible verbal diarrhea that I figured he covered almost all the bases of word combinations and knew he like to go on about "games." (like the old monkey with a typewriter scenario) even if he didn't actually use the term I'm assuming he took much of his garbage about "games" from it being quite the hot topic in the 1950's in math and science circles.

So in 1950 while Hubbard flipped through magazines looking for smart sounding fodder for his long con, mathematician John Nash (and many others) were doing groundbreaking work on games theory. (Just throwing in some real impressive looking math by Nash for the hell of it.)

nash equilibrium.jpg
 
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