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Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by mockingbird, Jul 6, 2014.

  1. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    For anyone who somehow doesn't know by now, I never say that Scientology is only one thing.

    I have run into ex Scientologists who have said Scientology was just lies or just social isolation or rhetoric or just sunk cost. I think that the whole process is something no one person fully understands.

    The subjects of psychology, cognitive dissonance theory, attachment theory, rhetoric, hypnosis and much much more all contribute to unraveling and explaining Scientology.
  2. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    It's funny you should mention that because the guys on the RPF where I was looked different to the rest of us while they were on it (they were scruffier) but I've since spoken to some of them and they felt nothing but relief once the initial shock wore off at being out of the main group.

    They were apparently told not to speak unless spoken to, had to run everywhere when in view of others and wore rags on their arms but they formed a tight group of their own and the ones who had no SO family seemed much happier than the rest of us overall and certainly were less stressed. Those with family that they were not allowed much contact with would have suffered for sure.

    Many blew left (my best friend did that in the middle of the night) which suggests to me that she could actually think a lot clearer once on the RPF and away from the general uproar and drama of the org.

    They mainly seemed to do physical work and if they copped extra 'mind manipulation' I wasn't aware of it. I know they each had a CS'd program but I assumed it was just the usual endless OW pulling, auditing and perhaps TR's.


    I just think some people are trying to make the whole hypnotism thing into a much bigger thing than it ever (possibly) was and it feels like an agenda to me, especially as there is little to zero other interaction.
  3. wigee1

    wigee1 Patron with Honors

    I really took the tek and made it my own,and was successful at it,not knowing, I was such a squirrel .
  4. Me and My Self

    Me and My Self Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn

    (sorry, off-topic here)
    Have the Thread Ratings been discarded? Can't seem to find them. And no results from the search box.
    Thanks in advance! :heartflower:
  5. Me and My Self

    Me and My Self Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn

    In the Student Hat and methodically repeated over and over in every other materials.

    That's KSW, page 6 (KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WORKING - HCO PL 7.2.65)
    "When somebody enrolls, consider he or she has joined up for the duration of the universe – never permit an “open-minded” approach. If they’re going to quit let them quit fast. If they enrolled, they’re aboard, and if they’re aboard, they’re here on the same terms as the rest of us – win or die in the attempt. Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists."

    He probably knew that just telling people the truth bluntly "an open mind is no good here" would have triggered critical alarms, so he insidiously slided it in through a lighter version of the concept (and just after a far far away spaced out sentence as the first one is - while the reader is still figuring out how long can this duration of the universe possibly be) TWICE (multiply this by the amount of courses taken) and then sealing it three sentences later, again with a toned-down slide.

    The adding of "approach" and "about being Scientologists" would seem to indicate that this is a small matter (a particular subject under focus at the moment, just among others in our life) but in fact "being a Scientologist" is likely and intended to take over one's whole life, for the duration of the Universe.

    And, worse of it all, and maybe this is why even after leaving it still clings in our minds, is that the real command is not simply the above-mentioned blunt one ... but a more dangerous one: "an open mind is no good". As we can't just close our mind totally and become void of significance, and as the only valid significance, as per the above indoctrination, is that of Hubbard's writings, we get to keep it for mental survival sake.

    Sneaky commands, covered by layers through layers, on end.
    Just my 2 cents.
    JustSheila likes this.
  6. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron


    I think a number of people figured out how indoctrination sticks to us and people are encumbered with burdens when trying to recover.

    Jon Atack has written a few excellent articles at The Underground Bunker on Scientology and a need to throw off the language entirely. Additionally he has described the need to bring ideas out into the open by saying them, by writing them down and discussing them with other people.

    He quoted John Stuart Mill and his very short book On Liberty that in a very brief article makes a superb case for a number of ideas including the need to get ideas out and described and discussed to even fully understand or form them.

    Robert Jay Lifton described the eight criteria for thought reform which are probably the most used way for ex cult members to align the reality of their cult experience with his it truly affected them. I recommend every ex Scientologist read them and thoroughly examine your own experiences in Scientology against them.

    Writing out notes or lists is useful and treating it like an article for presentation is useful. It makes you try and get it in order.

    Obviously I have written a lot of articles like that and wrote a long one, maybe ten thousand words or so - my usual, using the BITE MODEL by Steve Hassan.

    I have dealt with a lot of ex Scientologists and found that the people who are frankly not recovering often are doing similar things. This won't be true for everyone so if you were not recovering and are not doing these things then you are not who I am describing.

    Often people who don't recover do the following:
    1) continue to use things like auditing and study technology
    2) continue to believe in Scientology concepts
    3) continue to believe that Hubbard was correct about past lives or exteriorization or tone levels or engrams or overts, they believe he got some basic terms and important concepts right
    4) avoid studying anything that Hubbard said to stay away from like psychology, psychiatry, logic, rhetoric and avoid criticism, especially in depth criticism of the technology in Scientology
    5) avoid or refuse to hear or engage in any efforts to examine Scientology and its effectiveness, merits, flaws, and be critical or objective and look at it in any way that Hubbard didn't condone
    6) never look at the claim that Hubbard plagiarized ideas in Scientology and Dianetics
    7) never look at the past track records and failures of the subjects Hubbard plagiarized his ideas from in their earlier forms. Many of the subjects have similar history.

    Some people who do not recover have been neglected or abused as children in Scientology. Some were abused on the RPF, some experienced the Truth Rundown. There are other very specific abuses and treatments people endured that can make recovery extremely difficult.

    You may already be aware I have written on Scientology more than a little.

    I have over three hundred posts on Scientology at Mockingbird's Nest blog on Scientology.

    You are certainly welcome to read any of them and if you have a specific question on Scientology I might have already written on it, or have an answer.
  7. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    It might have been at St-Hill as things were reported to be less abusive there. But unfortunately it was different at Flag and possibly even worse at PAC.
  8. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation


  9. Me and My Self

    Me and My Self Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn

    Thank you so much for all of the above reply including what I snipped.
    Thank you for sharing your tools and own findings.
    And thank you above all for offering a helping hand to all of us here, as many others are doing too, each one in his/her own particular style.

    The language thing is DEFINITELY a must, IMO.
    I've already been working at that, as well as writing down my own findings as you describe and it is indeed of much help to me. I am also very thankful to @Gib as the earliest kickstarter on this board, bringing me to delve deeper and look for things that I might have been carelessly overlooking.
    I am halfway into this thread (page 6) and almost every post is bringing about realizations and advancing in what seems by now as a never ending reordering of concepts.
    Thanks again, to all of you beautiful people. :fromme:
    BTB ...:duh:

    P.S.: Thanks to ITYIWT for the "fixing" option ... although I got the meaning above right, "a need to throw off THE language" suddenly sounded to me a bit scary, subliminally. (Yes, I am THAT overanalyzer. Could be a personal warning, though, LOL.)
  10. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    You may have misunderstood ... I was suggesting that MB does not have the answers, he has opinions that may or may not be helpful to some.

    I have an opinion myself regarding 'healing from the cult' and that is that some people don't want to 'heal' possibly because much of their identity is based on the cult experience and they want to hang on to it and make it into something much bigger than it really was or needed to be.

  11. Me and My Self

    Me and My Self Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn

    I was referring both to your fix (literal strike-through option AND your fix of "answer" to "opinion") and the rest of the sentence about "language" was related to the other fix I did on the quote in my post ... :)
  12. Me and My Self

    Me and My Self Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn

    Study Tech ... just my 0.00001 cent
    I finally finished reading this thread as well as several other interconnected. I was looking particularly for anything that could have been already said in regard to Clay Demos, on which I'd just gotten a realization, and I found it on your earlier thread in both @HelluvaHoax! post :
    and in @Free Being Me post (from the "P.I.S.S.E.D." thread):
    I'll just add that working at replicating exactly, in clay, any of LRH's concepts, it seems to me that we are in fact re-creating them, putting them in the physical world, thus his concepts become ours more strongly than just understanding them intellectually = we become "him the creator", as clones. Which then goes beyond the simple concept replicated.

    Although, as I've already said somewhere in this board, I couldn't stand so many wrong attributions from Sups to hypothetical misunderstood words (when in fact I was protesting on materials awfully translated to spanish), which led me to study the auditor levels in original language thus needing to become a fast-flow student (FFS = Finally Free to Study !) I still viewed the Study Tech as a whole as the most valuable and fruitful experience I had.

    MB words on one of his posts from the Million Years in Hell thread describe it quite exactly:
    I'd never before then been able to study or read for more than one or two hours straight without pauses, let alone a whole 12-hour day at the academy (plus usually another 4 hours at night when back at home).
    So I was like, WOW, the TECH indeed works!

    Now I know (and thanks also to you all) that the highly focused trance feeling came mostly from more insidious, other-determined workings upon my mind. I won't affirm that the last leaf on the tree has finally fallen (although several other clingings fell with it, I still have to delve into the "pledged allegiance guilt trip + fear" that eventually comes and goes ...) but at least I think I can see the difference when I happen to feel again as above described in MB's quote.
    And then go for a walk ... or whatever :artist: :baby2::drama:

    (This below goes a bit beyond the scope of this thread, IMO, but anyway):
    1. Thank you very much for mentioning this book, as it would seem to confirm many of the findings I am presently bringing together to examine in depth my own behaviour/beliefs.

    I have been reviewing the realizations I'd had while being audited, and stumbled upon one in particular, where the "AHA" moment was really weird to me at that moment (I was supposedly remembering a "past life"): "Maybe I've just seen all of this in a movie though and identified myself with the action". I was really puzzled but apparently this brought about the closure of the process being run, in due form. I'd never gone back to it until now, as I didn't question particularly or seriously all the past lives subject up to now, thanks to some conversations on the OOBE thread (TYVM, @lotus :flowers:).

    2. I see both subjects (past lives + being "exterior") as deeply related, in the line of my own quest.
    My research is mostly an inner one, based on memories, personal backgrounds and reasoning, but any other formal research as yours usually are, will assuredly be of great interest, should you chose to write about "being exterior", to expand its scope and possibly ground it some more. So, thanks in advance for all your working. :flowers:
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thank you Terril

    Quite a deconstructivist thesis MB; I am impressed by and respectful of your effort

    I will gran there is a strong measure of manipulation to Academy training


    Less than you charge

    Noting one specific...

    I was NOT ypnotized on course
  14. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Scientology is a based on hypnosis. Hubbard admitted as much. He also admitted something probably every school or serious analysis of hypnosis I have seen has agreed - some people are easy to hypnotize, some are not, some apparently cannot be hypnotized. Some Scientologists then logically were never hypnotized.

    I can't say what your experience was. I do know my own.

    From a tape on The Philadelphia Doctorate Course lectures

    Structure/Function: 11 December 1952 page 1
    "All processes are based upon the original observation
    that an individual could have implanted in him by hypnosis
    and removed at will any obsession or aberration,
    compulsion, desire, inhibition which you could think of – by hypnosis.“
    "Hypnosis, then, was the wild variable;
    sometimes it worked,
    sometimes it didn’t work.
    It worked on some people; it didn’t work on other people.
    Any time you have a variable that is as wild as this, study it.
    Well, I had a high certainty already –
    I had survival. Got that in 1938 or before that. And uh…"
  15. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Thanks .

    You bring up a lot and I am always happy if anything I put out helps anyone to recover from or understand Scientology in any way.Scientology is as they say the gift that keeps on giving as Hubbard designed it to not be recovered from. In my opinion if one is deeply and heavily indoctrinated as I was then recovery without a lot of work is extremely unlikely.

    Regarding the demo kit I was reviewing a lot of materials recently and watched the interview Chris Shelton did with Ava Berner, the widow of Charles Berner. Ron Hubbard reportedly took some ideas, just a handful or so, certainly a tiny fraction of what he ultimately used in study technology from Charles Berner. Ava Berner commented that the demo kit was originally intended for children. Hubbard went whole job and has adults demo away all day on course.

    There is a belief that cult leaders like to have members regress and act like children to a degree because young children are obedient and have a reduced critical factor compared to adults. When the critical factor is lower a person has a higher tolerance for contradictions and magical thinking and is less skeptical.

    Hubbard may have included the demo kit just to have a third barrier to study to hunt for to increase the complexities of study technology.

    If he had just used the misunderstood word and listed all his phenomena he attributed to all three barriers then a psychologist or psychiatrist who had used or studied hypnosis could have easily said " these are all the same things a hypnotist looks for to either induce or find trance. " You are just confusing these students so much with contradictions, heightening their anxiety so much and boosting your authority so much they are going into trances in your course rooms ! "

    By having three barriers Hubbard made it so complicated that many psychologists and psychiatrists never figured it out. But guess who did ? Actual hypnotists. I saw threads in hypnotism groups online and ALL the members noted that EVERYTHING Hubbard wrote and had people do in Scientology was based off hypnosis. They have experience with the techniques in hypnosis and could easily see that both auditing and indoctrination are intended to use covert or conversational hypnosis.

    I highly recommend Subliminal by Leonard Mlodinow and it is only around two hundred pages and a very easy read.

    Here is a link to my series on it.
  16. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Here is a link to a post on hypnosis
  17. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    @Me and My Self

    Regarding bad translations I experienced thé same 8n french and reported several to translations unit..the didn't date!

    And as you can imagine, it's not even à possible reason for misunderstanding..Thus, KSW sups were handling bad translations with study tech or either the student sent to qual...$$$$$$
    And that resultrd often in the student lsughing out loud to ron saying something that was supposed to be deadly serious...I've seen it often.

    Bravo...the tech works!:woohoo:

  18. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    So you would consider me to be a person who has not recovered?
  19. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I have never had the opportunity to hypnotize members of Boston's sport teams but we have scored an unparalelled twelve crowns in the first 18 years of this century. And I have been coaching them on an "OT" level
    mockingbird likes this.
  20. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    I would have to know something to base my judgement on. Scientology is not a one size fits all identical experience. People are very different. It doesn't affect everyone the same way. And I don't know what you went through. Some people have been affected in totally different ways and degrees.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
    Me and My Self likes this.