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Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by mockingbird, Jul 6, 2014.

  1. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    I recently found a couple Hubbard quotes on hypnosis that are relevant to several earlier posts. I am going to add them to several threads they may be appropriate for.

    "If you can produce enough chaos — it says in a textbook on this subject — if you can produce enough chaos you can assume the total management of a psyche — if you can produce enough chaos.

    The way you hypnotize people is to misalign them in their own control and realign them under your control, which necessitates a certain amount of chaos, don’t you see?
    Now, the way to win through all of this is simply to let the guy have his stable data, if they are stable data and if they aren’t, let him have some more that are stable data and he’ll win and you’ll win.

    In other words, you can take any sphere — any sphere which is relatively chaotic and throw almost any stable datum into it with enough of a statement and you will get an alignment of data on that stable datum. You see this clearly?

    The whole society is liable to seize upon some stupid stable datum and thereafter this becomes a custom of some sort and you have the whole field of morals and mores and so forth stretching out before your view."

    Hubbard, L. R. (1955, 23 August). Axiom 53: The Axiom Of The Stable Datum. Academy Lecture Series/Conquest of Chaos, (CofC-2). Lecture conducted from Washington, DC.

    "Another way to hypnotize somebody would be to put him in the middle of chaos, everything going in all directions, everybody shooting at him and suddenly throw him a stable datum, and make it a successful stable datum so that it’s all called off once — the moment he grabs this. And this gives you the entire formula of brainwashing: interrogate, question, lights, pain, upset, accusation, duress, fear, privation and we throw him the stable datum. We say, “If you’ll just adopt ‘Ughism’ which is the most wonderful thing in the world, all this will cease,” and finally the fellow says, “All right, I’m an ‘Ugh.’ ” Immediately you stop torturing him and pat him on the head and he’s all set.Ever after he would believe that the moment he deserted “Ughism,” he would be drowned in chaos and that “Ughism” alone was the thing which kept the world stable; and he would sell his life or his grandmother to keep “Ughism” going. And there we have to do with the whole subject of loyalty, except — except that we haven’t dealt with loyalty at all on an analytical level but the whole subject of loyalty is a reactive subject we have dealt with. "

    Author: Hubbard, L. R.
    Document date: 1955, 21 September, 1955, 21 September
    Document title: Postulates 1,2,3,4 In Processing - New Understanding of Axiom 36, Postulates 1,2,3,4 In Processing - New Understanding of Axiom 36
  2. Me and My Self

    Me and My Self Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn

    And there ... goes the very last leaf on that tree.:flowers:

  3. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist


    If you changed the word "hypnosis" to "indoctrination" then I would agree with a lot of what is stated.

    Indoctrination does not require hypnotic induction techniques.
  4. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Well, Hubbard chose the words he did, so I am presenting them in that context.

    If you do not believe he used hypnosis in indoctrination that is certainly your right. He did seek out and with some people, some of the time, succeed in inducing the phenomena that a trained hypnotist would recognize as accompanying trance and in other references Hubbard made it perfectly clear he understood these exact phenomena accompany hypnosis in explicit detail.
  5. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Quotes posted by Mockingbird.
    Simple question ... do you know of a single person who was tortured and hypnotised that way (above) in the cofs?

    Nobody has ever disagreed that he fiddled around with hypnosis (it's a known fact) and he may have successfully induced some or many people into a trance like state. So what?

    There are many people (non scientologists) living in a trance like or chaotic state, there always have been and there always will be, they're just like that ... many other people choose to live in the moment and have very calm minds, most of the time.

    You could just as easily argue that Scientology drags people 'into the moment' and list various pieces of tek used to achieve it.

    Many people may have already been in a trance like state prior to joining the cult but that does not mean we all were and it certainly doesn't mean we were hypnotised once in the door.

    You keep trying to give hubbard way too much credit, possibly to make yourself feel better about the choices you have made in your life and you have every right to do that ... but you don't speak for all of us and you never will.
    Bill likes this.
  6. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    On OT3, past life implants..The obscene dawg
    "The material universe is very real, but any hypnotist can instruct a hypnotized subject into the construction of a universe which has tactile, sight, sound and any other manifestation possessed by the material universe, and who is to say then, that the hypnotized subject is not perceiving a universe?" Ron Hubbard

    "There are conditions worse than being unable to see, and that is imagining one sees." Ron Hubbard
    Lecture, Scientology and Effective Knowledge (15 July 1957).

    Cleared Theta Clear
    Beyond even the powerful Operating Thetan levels comes "Cleared Theta Clear," a state which Hubbard describes this way:
    "A thetan who is completely rehabilitated and can do everything a thetan should do, such as move MEST and control others from a distance, or create his own universe; a person who is able to create his own universe or, living in the MEST universe is able to create illusions perceivable by others at will, to handle MEST universe objects without mechanical means and to have and feel no need of bodies or even the MEST universe to keep himself and his friends interested in existence."
    — Ron Hubbard, Scientology 8-8008, p. 114 (1st ed), p. 151 (1990 ed.)

    Something that took me a long time to put together is that the cleared theta clear includes "or, living in the MEST universe is able to create illusions perceivable by others at will" and that Hubbard saw hypnosis as being useful for getting someone to construct a universe that they perceive as real, as agreed upon so Hubbard could use the imagination of a victim to get the victim to see a universe that doesn't exist. Scientology is Hubbard's effort to enslave people by controlling their minds so they see a reality that doesn't exist, a reality he controlled.

    Here are some quotes from the Philadelphia Doctorate Course lectures from 1952 which reveal even more.


    Originally Posted by PDC-04 pg6
    The hypnotist is only interested in one thing, really.
    The hypnotist is interested in taking the control of this individual.

    Originally Posted by PDC-05 pg 7 SCALES OF HANDLING 2.12.52

    "Well, that’s… that’s very interesting because we have hypnotism which can be demonstrated as a phenomenon,
    and we show that the greater and greater agreement,
    all you do to hypnotize somebody is just make him agree… agree… agree
    and after that he’ll see anything.
    He’ll do anything,
    he’ll see anything.
    He agrees, agrees, agrees." Ron Hubbard

    Quote Originally Posted by 8-8008-1952
    Faith – Distrust

    "There is no more over-rated quality in existence than faith.
    The subject who, under the hands of a hypnotist operator, conceives an enormous agreement with the hypnotist, is experiencing faith as it is commonly understood. In this state the subject can perceive anything which the hypnotist may direct. I

    In order to understand faith, one must,be able to differentiate between faith-in [trust] and faith. The difference between these two conditions is a direction of flow which earlier we found to be reality itself. Faith-in is an inflow of agreement and the placing of one's beingness and doingness under the control of another, and is, in other words, the sacrifice of one's universe.

    This is the basic mechanism wherein, all along the 'whole' track, thetans have been recruited in some cause or mystery, and have surrendered to this their own identity and ability.

    A little of this goes a very long distance. It is in essence the basic trick of hypnotism and by it one can convert and reduce the abilities of a subject for any purpose.

    Faith-in is an inflow and brings about the acceptance of reality other than one's own. Faith itself would be without flow where one was in a full state of beingness and, with this condition, one could occasion faith itself to occur within his own universe, or could occasion people to have faith in him. " Ron Hubbard

    Structure/Function: 11 December 1952 page 1
    again from the Philadelphia Doctorate Course

    "All processes are based upon the original observation
    that an individual could have implanted in him by hypnosis
    and removed at will any obsession or aberration,
    compulsion, desire, inhibition which you could think of – by hypnosis.“
    "Hypnosis, then, was the wild variable;
    sometimes it worked,
    sometimes it didn’t work.
    It worked on some people; it didn’t work on other people.
    Any time you have a variable that is as wild as this, study it.
    Well, I had a high certainty already –
    I had survival. Got that in 1938 or before that. And uh…" Ron Hubbard
  7. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Stop it.
    You use 1000 words where 10 would do, you overthink things, you lecture and pontificate... OK, that's you.

    But now you are spamming ESMB with multiple copies of the same damn post.

    Stop it.
  8. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    He posted 3 long posts in two minutes this morning. He must work on these at other times and then paste them.
  9. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    I was just thinking that yesterday. His posts are like London buses; you wait ages for one and then three come along at once. :biggrin:
  10. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Proper Auditor training should involve some indoctrination

    But true training needs to be not just EDUCATED (from the Latin "educare"; to draw out)



    for it is ultimately not a technology but an ART!!!
  11. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

  12. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    On that we can agree.:cool: