INSIDIOUS ENSLAVEMENT:STUDY TECHNOLOGY

[gbuck]

fuk the poster "mearvk" which you have coined as Merv.

I'm only trying to get peeps to read Sidis and compare to Hubbard's Dianetics.

Here's the question I now pose:

Did Hubbard model Dianetics from what Sidis published?

Did Hubbard steal from Sidis and reword it?

Did Hubbard steal from Sidis and use what he discovered to entrap people?

The only way to know this is to read Sidis as I provided the website with full links to his books which one can read online, and then compare it to Dianetics and even scientology.

So, I pose this question?

Will anybody out there who is reading this post make the comparison other than me? And post here on this tread the comparison of their reading of Sidis vs Hubbard?

You're right. Merv belongs in his own thread.


I'm reading it. Takes time.

I'm serious, and that's what's so fuckin' funny.

I have experienced some of the stuff he is describing.

In St. Hill. Tone 40 command, and my body strode right over to the lady delivering it.

It had nothing to do with me. That command resulted in "Immediate Execution of the Suggestion." as Sidis describes it.

I can't answer your question about Hubbard. Or if he stole from Sidis. But Sidis understood suggestion. And the mechanics of working it. And how to spot it.
Hubbard knew a lot of techniques that's for sure. And would have stolen or used anything to further his nightmare.
He would have been terrified about his secrets getting out.
That is why he started his campaign against anyone, other than himself, who had an understanding of what he was doing.

Hubbard was/is not the only one prepared to manipulate and suggest. It's a real fucking industry.
Sidis explains much better than I can. And this in 1919!

This is deep stuff. And for me, helpful.

 

[Gib]

You're right. Merv belongs in his own thread.


I'm reading it. Takes time.

I'm serious, and that's what's so fuckin' funny.

I have experienced some of the stuff he is describing.

In St. Hill. Tone 40 command, and my body strode right over to the lady delivering it.

It had nothing to do with me. That command resulted in "Immediate Execution of the Suggestion." as Sidis describes it.

I can't answer your question about Hubbard. Or if he stole from Sidis. But Sidis understood suggestion. And the mechanics of working it. And how to spot it.
Hubbard knew a lot of techniques that's for sure. And would have stolen or used anything to further his nightmare.
He would have been terrified about his secrets getting out.
That is why he started his campaign against anyone, other than himself, who had an understanding of what he was doing.

Hubbard was/is not the only one prepared to manipulate and suggest. It's a real fucking industry.
Sidis explains much better than I can. And this in 1919!

This is deep stuff. And for me helpful.

yes, I realize Hubbard was not the only one.

And yes, Sidis is deep stuff.

My apologies for coming across harsh earlier. My bad. I do that sometimes in the written word. If we were face to face, I'm sure we'd be having a good time.

But, anyways, I was reading some more, on the Sidis link I provided. Namely this one:

Psychotherapeutics
A Symposium by Morton Prince... Frederic H. Gerrish...
James J. Putnam...E.W. Taylor... Boris Sidis... George A.
Waterman... John E. Donley... Ernest Jones... Tom A. Williams
(1908, 1909, 1912)

http://www.sidis.net/ptcontents.htm

I haven't read it all, and have not gott'in my wits around it all, as it is a Symposium by various researchers back then.

I only read some of it, but if you ask me, and I could be full of shit, but this whole Symposium is a blueprint for what Hubbard did. One has to think in terms of Hubbards words vs what the various researchers used as words, which Hubbard retermed.

Psychotherapeutics is a name that Hubbard retermed as Dianetics. IMHO, don't know for sure.

In the chapter 6 written by Boris Sidis:

" The theory of reserve energy is of the utmost importance to abnormal psychology. The theory was advanced independently by Prof. James[SUP]3[/SUP] and myself,[SUP]4[/SUP] and seems to me to form the very foundation of psychopathology and psychotherapeutics. It is by no means easy to present adequately the principle of reserve energy in this brief paper. The principle is based on a broad generalization of facts, psychological, physiological, and biological, namely, thatfar less energy is utilized by the individual than there is actually at his disposal. In fact, but a very small fraction of the total amount of energy possessed by the organism is used in its relation with the ordinary stimuli of its environment. The energy in use may be regarded as thekinetic or circulating energy, while the energy stored away is the potential reserve energy. There must always be a reserve supply of energy requisite for unusual reactions in emergency cases. Those organisms survive which have the greatest amount of reserve energy, just as those countries are stronger and victorious in the world-market which possess the largest amount of reserve capital to draw upon in critical periods. "

I dunno, if one considers Hubbard's tone scale, and his potential energy of a thetan, one can connect the dots where Hubbard got his ideas. And turned it into a book and lecture series, you know writing for a penny a word. LOL

But, the above is just one thought, or connection. There are many more in this Symposium.

 

[BardoThodol]

yes, I realize Hubbard was not the only one.

And yes, Sidis is deep stuff.

My apologies for coming across harsh earlier. My bad. I do that sometimes in the written word. If we were face to face, I'm sure we'd be having a good time.

But, anyways, I was reading some more, on the Sidis link I provided. Namely this one:



http://www.sidis.net/ptcontents.htm

I haven't read it all, and have not gott'in my wits around it all, as it is a Symposium by various researchers back then.

I only read some of it, but if you ask me, and I could be full of shit, but this whole Symposium is a blueprint for what Hubbard did. One has to think in terms of Hubbards words vs what the various researchers used as words, which Hubbard retermed.

Psychotherapeutics is a name that Hubbard retermed as Dianetics. IMHO, don't know for sure.

In the chapter 6 written by Boris Sidis:



I dunno, if one considers Hubbard's tone scale, and his potential energy of a thetan, one can connect the dots where Hubbard got his ideas. And turned it into a book and lecture series, you know writing for a penny a word. LOL

But, the above is just one thought, or connection. There are many more in this Symposium.

This is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to check out the board. I love a new bit of information or a reference to someone or something I hadn't known before.

I'm such a data slut.

 

[Gib]

This is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to check out the board. I love a new bit of information or a reference to someone or something I hadn't known before.

I'm such a data slut.

Here are success stories that Boris Sidis said resulted from his therapy. Tell me Hubbard didn't steal these stories and rewrite them in his Dianetics book, or Hubbard just made up stories in a similar view, or that was Hubbards research, borrowed from another, and he made his own. LOL

key words. hypnoidization = reverie

hypoidal state = reverie state

From this general discussion about the nature of the hypnoidal state and the methods of its induction we may now turn to a brief review of some of the cases treated by hypnoidization. The tracing of the growth and development of the various symptoms by means of the memories restored in the hypnoidal state is here omitted, as the object of the present paper is not the study of the causation and origin of the psychopathic systems or “complexes,” but rather their reassociation and cure effected by the reserve energies liberated in the hypnoidal state. I give cases of partial as well as complete success so to give the reader a more or less adequate notion of the therapeutic value of the treatment. Cases of partial success are presented first.

I. Miss P. R. Age 23. American. Mother is very nervous. Sister is “high strung.” Father is well. When young, patient was regarded as sensitive. He present trouble began three years ago. She suffers from digestive disturbances, dizziness, circulatory irregularities, numbness in hands and legs, and especially from continuous feeling of fatigue. Her sleep is restless, she dreams a good deal. Attention is good, but her mental state is one of indecision. If left to herself, she would remain in the same place. To make a change in her surroundings is hard and painful to her. The fear of meeting people and specially strangers is quite intense; in fact, it constitutes her central obsession. At the age of eighteen she fell in love with a young man to whom she became engaged. A year later the engagement was broken off under very distressing circumstances. Since then the present condition has gradually developed: The patient was in a chronic state of mental depression and was not unaware of the real origin of her trouble, but the awareness was vague, often falling below the margin of clear consciousness.
The patient expected to be hypnotized, but she could not go into hypnosis. After a few trials at hypnotization the hypnoidal state was used. At first the hypnoidal state was brief in duration, but with its repetition it became prolonged and deepened with gradually creasing beneficial effects. The patient was but three weeks under my care. She felt greatly improved and returned home before the recovery was made complete.

II. Mr. A. C. Actor. Age 47. American. There are no special diseases in the family except “nervousness.” The patient is imaginative and emotional. When about the age of ten his grandfather gave him Faust to read. Since then he has been troubled with the insistent idea of having sold his soul to Satan. In his childhood he was very religious,—prayed much, was afraid of sins, and suffered from nightmares. About fifteen years ago had syphilis, for which he was treated for a period of two years. Up to the age of 32 patient led a gay life. Seven years ago he suddenly felt that “something snapped in his head” and he became greatly frightened. He thought it was paresis or tabes, “as so many actors suffer from those diseases.” This fright, however, soon wore off. A month later, after a strenuous and fatiguing series of plays, he suddenly woke up in the middle of the night with the idea of paresis and intense fear. The overconscientiousness and fear of sin characteristic of his childhood and boyhood have now reappeared, and he is obsessed by the fear of sin, deception, blasphemy. He suffers from vague pains all over the body and from digestive disturbances, but he is specially obsessed by the fear of parasyphilitic diseases, tabes and paresis, the symptoms of which are reflected in his attacks.
In the hypnoidal state he became quieted, much of the fear and depression was gone. In addition to other information obtained, though interesting from a psychopathological standpoint, space does not permit to give here, it was found that the last attack was occasioned by a long visit to a friend of his, also an actor, who suffered from gastric crises of tabes. A series of treatments by hypnoidization improved considerably the patient’s condition, and he returned to his occupation, which he could not possibly give up for any length of time.

III. Mr. C. S. Age 39. Russian. Builder. Father died of apoplexy at the age of 72. Mother is 77, but has always been nervous. Brothers and sisters are well. Patient is rather undersized and weighs ninety-seven pounds. He is very emaciated, looks cachectic, suffers from anorexia, nausea, indigestion, and from vague abdominal pains. Detailed inquiry into the patient’s sexual life disclosed no abnormality. Anything unpleasant awakens a feeling of nausea. This can be traced to an infectious disease from which the patient suffered some twelve years ago. He was frightened over it and worried about the consequences. Nausea and vomiting were present during the course of the disease and persisted afterwards. The patient is introspective and suggestible in regard to sickness. If any of the family happen to have any trouble, he is sure to fall sick with the same symptoms. Thus about two months ago the patient’s mother fell and broke her left arm, he, too, soon began to feel pain in the left arm, for which he had to be treated. Every new moon he experiences intestinal disturbances, because about that time, in his childhood, his mother used to administer to him a purgative.
Put into the hypnoidal state patient felt much relieved. The beneficial results of the treatment became manifested at the end of a few weeks.
IV. Mr. M. G. Irish. Age 38. Married. Occupation, liquor dealer. Father alive and well. Mother died of pneumonia at the age of forty. Brother and sister died of some obscure form of “heart trouble.” Physical condition is good. Patient has no appetite, worries, has no confidence in himself. He is extremely methodical, things must be arranged in certain order or he feels uneasy and quite unhappy. Has no headaches, but suffers from insomnia. Does not drink, but smokes excessively. Sexual life normal. Has been sensitive and nervous from his very childhood. He broods much over his incapacity
of spelling. Has been lately working very hard on a new business intrusted to his care. He doubts his business capacities and fears to ruin the business. He became greatly depressed and had to give up his work and go to the country, but with no beneficial results.
The patient was brought to me in a state of deep despondency, close on the brink of suicide. He could not be hypnotized. I put him into a hypnoidal state, kept him in a state of relaxation for fifteen minutes. When he came out of it he felt “a little better, but not much.” After two weeks’ treatment the patient felt so far improved that I advised him to return to his work, while the treatment was being continued. Gradually his despondency gave way, his worries, fears, and doubts disappeared, and confidence in himself became strengthened. Patient declared he “never felt so well before.” The treatment covered a period of three months. It is now, more than two years, the patient continues to be in excellent condition.

V. Mrs. J. F. Age 28. American. Married. Family history good. For many years patient has been suffering from severe headaches, backache, general fatigue, and weakness of the eyes which occasionally became intolerably painful. The headaches became sometimes so intense that the patient suffered agonies. The pains extended all over the head and even down the arms and back. There were present sore spots in the back of the head, the pressure on which somewhat relieved the pain. Various pains of a more indefinable character were also complained of in the right ovarian region, pains increased on exercise. The patient had usually no appetite, nothing tasted well,—there was some unpleasant odor in the food; nutrition was poor. Occasionally she suffered from bulimia alternating with anorexia. The sense organs were hyperesthetic; field of vision was normal. The heart was normal, though occasionally irregularity of heart-beat could be observed, due to the patient’s extreme nervousness. A gynecologist diagnosed salpingitis and advised an operation on account of adhesions formed. The patient, however, refused to be operated on, and the family physician carried, out a long course of gynecological treatment. The oculist treated her eyes, and after a long examination and treatment fitted her with glasses; but the eyes were no better and the headaches were as severe as before.
After a fair trial had been given to various treatments I had to resort to hypnoidization. A year's treatment by the hypnoidal state made the symptoms disappear. The patient gained in flesh and in strength, and felt, as she put it, “younger than ever.”

VI. Miss G. A. Age 55. American. Three brothers died of various forms of cardiac affections. Father died of pnemonia ; mother died of fatty degeneration of the heart. One of the sisters suffered from akromegaly and died of heart trouble. There are histories of tuberculosis in the collateral branches of the family. Patient looks poorly nourished, her appetite is completely gone. She suffers from insomnia, headaches, backache, general diffused pains all over the body; complains of lassitude and of lack of interest in what goes on around her. She feels despondent and has crying spells. The depression reaches such an acute stage that the patient is afraid of losing her mind. When a child she suffered from pavor nocturnus and when about the age of twelve she took a long fatiguing journey which brought on such a state of exhaustion that on her return she became aphasic and hemiplegic and was confined to bed for six months. The present condition set in a few years ago,—she lost the sense of smell and of taste, while she fell into a state of deep depression. Neurologists regarded her as a case of some obscure “neurosis,” obstinate and incurable.

 

[BardoThodol]

Here are success stories that Boris Sidis said resulted from his therapy. Tell me Hubbard didn't steal these stories and rewrite them in his Dianetics book, or Hubbard just made up stories in a similar view, or that was Hubbards research, borrowed from another, and he made his own. LOL

key words. hypnoidization = reverie

hypoidal state = reverie state

All these "case studies" just make it all seem so legitimate. I remember reading "Have You Lived Before This Life" and being so fascinated with the personal experiences being expressed.

Then again, had I read about a man jumping up because he saw fire in his lap, I wouldn't have known he was simply deluded from being hypnotized into believing this, thus experiencing it.

Still, I'm fascinated by what people believe they believe and why they do. How perceptions become ideas. And how ideas become perceptions. Thus experience.

 

[Gib]

All these "case studies" just make it all seem so legitimate. I remember reading "Have You Lived Before This Life" and being so fascinated with the personal experiences being expressed.

Then again, had I read about a man jumping up because he saw fire in his lap, I wouldn't have known he was simply deluded from being hypnotized into believing this, thus experiencing it.

Still, I'm fascinated by what people believe they believe and why they do. How perceptions become ideas. And how ideas become perceptions. Thus experience.

but in the day when I read that book, I didn't believe it, I thought it was BS,

but for some reason I still thought "clear" could be possible.

I think the reason is because, at the time, I was throughly convinced, persuaded.

But, my education was lacking, actually, non existence about critical thinking, or plato, or Aristotle or anything else along those lines.

I was a clean slate to write upon. And I had no education in such matters.

Which, BTW, Sidis talks about. Unlike Hubbard who does not. In fact, Hubbard said, or implied, he studied Plato, Socrates, etc, implying, suggesting, he knew it all and could explain it better and found the secrets.

 

[BardoThodol]

but in the day when I read that book, I didn't believe it, I thought it was BS,

but for some reason I still thought "clear" could be possible.

I think the reason is because, at the time, I was throughly convinced, persuaded.

But, my education was lacking, actually, non existence about critical thinking, or plato, or Aristotle or anything else along those lines.

I was a clean slate to write upon. And I had no education in such matters.

Which, BTW, Sidis talks about. Unlike Hubbard who does not. In fact, Hubbard said, or implied, he studied Plato, Socrates, etc, implying, suggesting, he knew it all and could explain it better and found the secrets.

Well, I did believe it at the time.

I still believe in past lives. Just because I want to. Just because the human brain tries to make sense of it all, and the idea that consciousness has continuance makes comfortable sense to me.

If you look at the advances in technology over the last 100 years, you've got to wonder what kind of advances a society that was a million years older would have made. And we're living on a relatively young planet. There are apparently planets a few billion years older.

Not to mention that astrophysicists speculate that the Big Bang may only be the latest in a long series of Big Bangs. Amongst other theories.

So, what experiences has the universal consciousness (or whatever individual bits of it) had?

And are those experiences retrievable?

I don't know. But it's fun to speculate.

 

[Gib]

Well, I did believe it at the time.

I still believe in past lives. Just because I want to. Just because the human brain tries to make sense of it all, and the idea that consciousness has continuance makes comfortable sense to me.

If you look at the advances in technology over the last 100 years, you've got to wonder what kind of advances a society that was a million years older would have made. And we're living on a relatively young planet. There are apparently planets a few billion years older.

Not to mention that astrophysicists speculate that the Big Bang may only be the latest in a long series of Big Bangs. Amongst other theories.

So, what experiences has the universal consciousness (or whatever individual bits of it) had?

And are those experiences retrievable?

I don't know. But it's fun to speculate.

well, in my hundreds of hours of auditing,

no, never experienced it.

I have experienced this life time past experiences.

 

[gbuck]

Here are success stories that Boris Sidis said resulted from his therapy. Tell me Hubbard didn't steal these stories and rewrite them in his Dianetics book, or Hubbard just made up stories in a similar view, or that was Hubbards research, borrowed from another, and he made his own. LOL

key words. hypnoidization = reverie

hypoidal state = reverie state

What first strikes me about Sidis is his complete involvement in the story of,and the desire to understand his patient.
He sees them as a whole person with history, relationships dreams and fears.
Compassion perhaps. I cannot compare this to the hubbardian approach.
Compassion is not a word uttered from ronnies lips.
But it's becoming obvious that he was a borrower. Who never returned the items. And denied that he borrowed them in the first place.
And utilised, for his own ends.

The reference to available energy is revealing.

It's strange to notice that Sidis's motives were apparently for the good. And his practise appears to be good. And the results appear to be good. Is that all one process perhaps?
Wronnie on the other can. I don't need to say.

 

[gbuck]

key words. hypnoidization = reverie

hypoidal state = reverie state

.



I'm learning my way round posting. maybe it's an art form.
Don't know how to insert two previous quotes, and display them,to keep the thread alive. I'll do my best.
It seems clear that we all look for what we want to find.Especially if it satisfies us.
That's not just looking, it's looking for. Nothing wrong with that. it's just good to know what you are doing. Just looking is a different animal.

Sometimes data overload is my problem. Sometimes data gets in the way of seeing what's in front of me.
But I love data.

i like philosophy, sometimes. It's interesting and useful, sometimes. Religious thought may be useful, sometimes. It's challenging, sometimes.

There you are, too much data.

The references to the hypnoidization and the hypoidal state are fascinating to me.
The eastern view of illusory states of being is fascinating. There's more than one way of skinning a cat. There's more than one way of judging reality.
That's where I'm interested.
That's where my interest takes me.
Why do I need to judge reality?
If my perception of reality can be induced. By whatever means.
Then what is the actual, real world, without the filters of belief.
If I'm aware of the filters then do I need them?
If I escape from one trap, do I understand all traps?
I'm note sure.But it's an interesting, and neccessary, journey of discovery.
Hopefully, well, definitely, not mine alone.
Which is why I love you guys.

 

[BardoThodol]

well, in my hundreds of hours of auditing,

no, never experienced it.

I have experienced this life time past experiences.

Well, I did. Before Scientology on drugs. During Scientology in auditing. And after Scientology in meditation.

As they say, "two out of three ain't bad."

And I'm certain (we all know that certainty, not data equals, uh, equals, well, anyways),

or perhaps just intrigued by the nature of consciousness, both in individuals and on a broader scale.

I just don't have any sacred ideas that need protecting or that can't be changed. I'm content to enjoy what I do, and hold ideas simply because they interest me.

 

[gbuck]

Well, I did. Before Scientology on drugs. During Scientology in auditing. And after Scientology in meditation.

As they say, "two out of three ain't bad."

And I'm certain (we all know that certainty, not data equals, uh, equals, well, anyways),

or perhaps just intrigued by the nature of consciousness, both in individuals and on a broader scale.

I just don't have any sacred ideas that need protecting or that can't be changed. I'm content to enjoy what I do, and hold ideas simply because they interest me.

I have heard tales of this and tales of that. Racial memory [is that racist?] group consciousness,it does sound neat.

But I don't experience it. Doesn't mean it's not there. Who knows? Please don't e-mail me.

I don't see any idea as sacred. The idea of a sacred idea, is pretty dangerous. Especially if it's got back-up.

I sometimes felt that I was finding past life episodes to keep the auditor happy. Until I started to believe them myself

 

[BardoThodol]

I have heard tales of this and tales of that. Racial memory [is that racist?] group consciousness,it does sound neat.

But I don't experience it. Doesn't mean it's not there. Who knows? Please don't e-mail me.

I don't see any idea as sacred. The idea of a sacred idea, is pretty dangerous. Especially if it's got back-up.

I sometimes felt that I was finding past life episodes to keep the auditor happy. Until I started to believe them myself

Has a withhold been missed?

It seemed that I could never get through a session without being asked that.

I remember getting a body comm assist when I first started. Before I'd read about past lives. I'm laying there and all of a sudden I feel the weight of a heavy breast plate pressing down on my chest, the hot sun, the sweat, the helmet, the ground, and all sorts of stuff that wasn't actually present. I felt myself dying of this wound, with all sorts of regrets.

Spanish conquistador? Movie madness?

I don't know.

But it was curious. Especially because I'd never thought much of past lives and their validity or lack of validity.

Still, curious or not, I didn't believe or not. The reason I stayed was for the women.

 

[gbuck]

Has a withhold been missed?

It seemed that I could never get through a session without being asked that.

I remember getting a body comm assist when I first started. Before I'd read about past lives. I'm laying there and all of a sudden I feel the weight of a heavy breast plate pressing down on my chest, the hot sun, the sweat, the helmet, the ground, and all sorts of stuff that wasn't actually present. I felt myself dying of this wound, with all sorts of regrets.

Spanish conquistador? Movie madness?

I don't know.

But it was curious. Especially because I'd never thought much of past lives and their validity or lack of validity.

Still, curious or not, I didn't believe or not. The reason I stayed was for the women.

Apparently dreams occur in micro-seconds but to the dreamer that's not the experience. Not in the same time frame as when they are awake, anyway.

If, small but big word, auditing is a reverie state or some such thing, and I'm encouraged to find incidents.

How quickly could an incident be imagined or somehow created, an illusion but with the feel of reality. Like all good illusions. Would I therefore believe it?

Dreams are real when you are dreaming. Normally nobody asks you for a success story afterwards.

I was getting pretty creative. The thing is doubts creep in. Were the incidents real? Then you are up shit creek. Confused, and then the consequences of

confusion.

Making a choice about what to believe, or not to believe, whilst being in a state of confusion.

I see, now, that I can't choose, because I'm confused. So I don't choose. I don't run away from being confused by grabbing onto a lifeline.


And I don't escape into certainty. That closed ego.

 

[gbuck]

Has a withhold been missed?

I know it's not what you meant , but,

I had almost forgot about the concept of a missed withhold.


So why was I slightly perturbed? In the background, :smoking: and, .

I used to consider something pleasant when I was interrogated. That got my needle to float. and it left the doubts in their own special place.


But, in the background. A hintergedanke, a German word for: [FONT=arial, sans-serif]A nagging unconscious thought, esp. one that upsets the equilibrium of dominant perspectives or worldview. etc.

I decided not to go for the cure.[/FONT]:mindblow: , i.e. the tek. I've got a rough idea where that particular garden path leads. Not to a garden.
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]
Why does scientological learning or indoctrination still lurk? In my [/FONT]Hintergedanke? Which to me is not a seperate compartment to be, hopefully, sorted out later........ when I've got time.[FONT=arial, sans-serif]
[the type face on this draft keeps changing [/FONT]]
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]

The missed withholds are the maybe's and their number is Legend. [ask Will Smith]

And I can supply as many as you like, madam. At discount.

Puffs of smoke.

Unless taken as fact.




[/FONT]

 

[BardoThodol]

I know it's not what you meant , but,

I had almost forgot about the concept of a missed withhold.


So why was I slightly perturbed? In the background, :smoking: and, .

I used to consider something pleasant when I was interrogated. That got my needle to float. and it left the doubts in their own special place.


But, in the background. A hintergedanke, a German word for: A nagging unconscious thought, esp. one that upsets the equilibrium of dominant perspectives or worldview. etc.

I decided not to go for the cure.:mindblow: , i.e. the tek. I've got a rough idea where that particular garden path leads. Not to a garden.


Why does scientological learning or indoctrination still lurk? In my Hintergedanke? Which to me is not a seperate compartment to be, hopefully, sorted out later........ when I've got time.
[the type face on this draft keeps changing ]


The missed withholds are the maybe's and their number is Legend. [ask Will Smith]

And I can supply as many as you like, madam. At discount.

Puffs of smoke.

Unless taken as fact.

Hell, I was never looking for anything pleasant especially in auditing. I was always digging deep trying to solve the world.

They used to throw me in ethics for roller coastering(sic). But, my position was, "well, it's like being in a dirty house. I might have just put a plate in the dishwasher, but I also want to clean the floors, the oven, refrigerator and counters. Not to mention organizing the shelves--which are ugly and need replacing. And I haven't even started on the rest of the house. Why am I supposed to be celebrating cleaning a single dish when there's so much more that needs doing?"

Then they'd get me for self-auditing because I was asking myself questions out of session.

Uh?

Isn't critical thinking a process of asking yourself questions out of session?

I guess they had to get "ethics in" before the "tech would work." In other words, they had to force me to obey orders and accept what I was told so that I would go into a hypnotic trance and act out my role as described in the hundred percent standard tech. I would become a Stepford parishioner, complete with unwavering smile and endless success stories.

As for anything Scientology may have stirred up in any of us, it was probably there in the first place, so had nothing to do with them. They may have added a few traumas, and confused a few issues, and handed us whacky explanations; but the profound stuff was always sitting there waiting to be examined and available without them.

That missed withhold crap just tends to hit the center of our anxiety. Are we good enough? Are we bad? Are we deserving? It doesn't need specifics to get stirred up.

As for auditing, I still suffer from PTSD from Vietnam, which was a huge part of my life and personality, yet not once did it ever come up in session. Not once. I went in to see a veterans rep about getting benefits for my heart (agent orange) and hearing (lots of guns, artillery, explosions, helicopters) and she started asking me about my experiences over there. I couldn't even talk about it. I'd get too choked up. She told me I had PTSD and I said I didn't. The shrink agree with her. So, now I get benefits for being nuts. But not for lost hearing or a fucked up heart. Go figure.

The point is, that this was a pretty heavy recent (then) experience for me, and not once did it come up in session.

So, I just don't credit auditing with much.

 

[gbuck]

Hell, I was never looking for anything pleasant especially in auditing. I was always digging deep trying to solve the world.

They used to throw me in ethics for roller coastering(sic). But, my position was, "well, it's like being in a dirty house. I might have just put a plate in the dishwasher, but I also want to clean the floors, the oven, refrigerator and counters. Not to mention organizing the shelves--which are ugly and need replacing. And I haven't even started on the rest of the house. Why am I supposed to be celebrating cleaning a single dish when there's so much more that needs doing?"

Then they'd get me for self-auditing because I was asking myself questions out of session.

Uh?

Isn't critical thinking a process of asking yourself questions out of session?

I guess they had to get "ethics in" before the "tech would work." In other words, they had to force me to obey orders and accept what I was told so that I would go into a hypnotic trance and act out my role as described in the hundred percent standard tech. I would become a Stepford parishioner, complete with unwavering smile and endless success stories.

As for anything Scientology may have stirred up in any of us, it was probably there in the first place, so had nothing to do with them. They may have added a few traumas, and confused a few issues, and handed us whacky explanations; but the profound stuff was always sitting there waiting to be examined and available without them.

That missed withhold crap just tends to hit the center of our anxiety. Are we good enough? Are we bad? Are we deserving? It doesn't need specifics to get stirred up.

As for auditing, I still suffer from PTSD from Vietnam, which was a huge part of my life and personality, yet not once did it ever come up in session. Not once. I went in to see a veterans rep about getting benefits for my heart (agent orange) and hearing (lots of guns, artillery, explosions, helicopters) and she started asking me about my experiences over there. I couldn't even talk about it. I'd get too choked up. She told me I had PTSD and I said I didn't. The shrink agree with her. So, now I get benefits for being nuts. But not for lost hearing or a fucked up heart. Go figure.

The point is, that this was a pretty heavy recent (then) experience for me, and not once did it come up in session.

So, I just don't credit auditing with much.

Sorry about the PTSD. The money comes in useful, I guess.

Thanks for the reply, and giving me the chance to tidy up my thoughts,

ethics [which does not deserve a capital letter] is designed to keep you in the system. It's there to confuse and then 'solve' your confusion, ethics spots those who are questioning ethics. Or anything else. It will not tolerate inquiry.
And then auditing, which proceeds to define your case, and then handles it's definition. You are at that point redundant. It's about the case.
Just about everyone has something we know must be resolved. That is a fact. Ultimately, only we have the wherewithal to see it. Or allow it to reveal itself.
We are the closest, to whatever is pressing itself to be revealed. For me that something was not in my case. In fact my case had now become their responsibility. They were handling it. For money. I was irrelevant. The case was relevant.
The system of auditing is unconcerned with us. It gets into gear and rolls along doing it's own thing, regardless.
It has no heart. It has a checklist. The checklist is compiled from it's definition of case. There are goals to be reached on the checklist.
The checklist has the end in sight even before it begins. You and me my friend are irrelavent. Every single item on that list will be discovered.
If you look for something you will find something, simply because you are looking for something and if you're desperate, or pushed anything will do.
[my spell check interrupted the drift of my draft to inform me that, if you look for soothing, you will find soothing] mmm
Yeah,my drift, if you look you will find. something.
And if you have a checklist as a guide? The checklist knows the destination, and you have agreed to follow along, regardless. The way out etc.
You have made an agreement to work on this together but with it as the guide. It has the destination planned. You on the other hand have not got the foggiest.
You've not been this way before. no problem. The list will guide.
The goal of auditing [it's on the list]will be achieved. Because the list will find what it is looking for. With or without our assistance, Because, to it we are irrelevant.
It's about lists. Lists lead inexorably to results.
And once again we are irrelevant.
But it is us that counts not the auditing.
Not the stats.
Not success.
And not the success stories. Us
Auditing gets what it wants. I used to feed it. With what it needed. A reaction. Any reaction. My reaction. Sometimes I would actually believe it. Because it was convenient.
Auditing is not about our tragedy or suffering.
It is all about itself. It has it's own goals. On it's checklist.Seriously
I don't do conclusions. If at all possible. You have to constantly update them. So really, they are not fuckin' conclusions.
I think that auditing creates that which it is looking for, charge. Provided by the ever eager mug [us] holding the cans. That's become our goal now, to release the charge. And we create or discover charge. It's why we're there, for relief. It's in our interests to co-operate. So we do. We provide, and we find...stuff.
And once again you or me are irrelevant, it's the case [delineated by the case supervisor] thats relevant not the individual, and not us.


a snake eating itself. feeding itself. with itself...mmm ....no worries.......it has a checklist..........gotta have a checklist...........be lost without..............

I believe there are even bigger checklists lists now, and bigger snakes. ha fuckin'ha.

And a bold button.mmmm

It was difficult to write this. I feel like that snake. Or the bloke trying to lift himself up in the air by pulling up on his boots. Or biting his own teeth. At the same time.
I love Taj's work, his approach and his cutting logic especially to this subject, it's needed, it works so well for him and others. And he has opened my eyes and let in a bit of that
Greek wisdom with it's swords and so on for tackling the words all ganging up to do me 'ead in.
I don't have that way of separating out the wheat from the chaff. Don't come naturally. I like naturally, but it is fucking hard.

 

[xenusdad]

Great post, OP! And very interesting reading all comments.

When I was doing the OEC (Organization Executive Course) I had progressed as far Volume 3 (Treasury) having done Volumes 0, 1 and 2, when the supervisor did a spot check. This is when they just pick a word at random on the page you are studying and ask you to define it. He chose the word "if". Now I knew a few definitions of that little word but not the one he was looking for.

FLUNK!

I had to go back to the very beginning of the course and start all over again with Volume 0.

Please tell me that's insane

 

[Claire Swazey]

Great post, OP! And very interesting reading all comments.

When I was doing the OEC (Organization Executive Course) I had progressed as far Volume 3 (Treasury) having done Volumes 0, 1 and 2, when the supervisor did a spot check. This is when they just pick a word at random on the page you are studying and ask you to define it. He chose the word "if". Now I knew a few definitions of that little word but not the one he was looking for.

FLUNK!

I had to go back to the very beginning of the course and start all over again with Volume 0.

Please tell me that's insane

Yes, it is insane.

 

[gbuck]

Great post, OP! And very interesting reading all comments.

When I was doing the OEC (Organization Executive Course) I had progressed as far Volume 3 (Treasury) having done Volumes 0, 1 and 2, when the supervisor did a spot check. This is when they just pick a word at random on the page you are studying and ask you to define it. He chose the word "if". Now I knew a few definitions of that little word but not the one he was looking for.

FLUNK!

I had to go back to the very beginning of the course and start all over again with Volume 0.

Please tell me that's insane

Before the beginning :-}

Almost my first study action in the SO was the Teshnical Degrades. It was like a fucking koan. I was stuck, stuck and stuck trying to get it into my thick brain


"Resistance is futile" was the course sup's attitude, unfortunately I did eventually dooplicate it.


As I reward I was allowed to stand up in front of the group and share my newly implanted knowledge.

Somebody was celebrating a success. I was as usual, somewhat confused, but I had vgi's plastered all over me.


Primed and ready to go so I was



I resisted the word "degrade " The first concept I had to duplicate in the SO was around the ideas of: 'degrades and degraded beings'.



That is more than a word it's a fucking whole belief system that leads to all of the bollocks that inevitably follow, the rejection of compassion, the belief in superior beings, the unabberated,


the clear, the OT, the ubermensch, superman [ the bad one]. Part of your mission then becomes the eradication of all degrades, because technical degrades must not be.


You either cave in to agreement with the concept of the actual existence of degrades or you blow. I hung around for a little bit too long. Then I did blow


xenusdad : perhaps your so called mu on the word "if' was not an mu after all but a reminder to yourself, sorry, I couldn't resist :confused2:


degraded being is the only degraded being I know any where and he's a very nice chap