INT Base and Jonestown

[still here]

I have never really considered that Scientology could go the direction of Jonestown. I suppose, having been there it never seemed an option or, (pardon the ridiculousness), that insane when I was there.

I have thought about it since though and it does concern me, the more distance I have obtained the more insanity I have seen, or been able to see.

I suppose it didn't worry me until I realised that Hubbard had died....and that his demise was presented as him having gone to target II and left of his own volition...in some ways this leads the way.

If Miscaviage can continue to re-work the tech, (and keep selling it to the same public) He has managed it so far, but there are probably limits. If he can keep some new people coming in - all is well. Money coming in, life continues the same. If it does start to dry up, and there are reports of orgs emptying, and the internet meaning less new public, more bad publicity than they can cope with, and more old public getting tired of retraining and no results, then dangerous times loom.

Miscavige has always been faced with how to carry on without Ron. A problem that unless he had announced thousands of new levels at the time, was going to be a problem. What do you sell the OTs?? There have been some solutions the ISA as an example. It probably cannot last forever though. If the solution becomes to "follow" him, for any reaso; Law suits, cash flow, imprisonment, exposure, his own illness, etc.....then why not follow Ron, why not suggest it to his band of followers, like Hubbard, he cannot achieve anything more, he cannot change the planet and he is backsliding now and losing possible gains he made.

I feel quite strongly that the future of current SO members and Scientologists, sadly rests in his very unbalanced head.

I would not want my fate there.

Still

 

[Enthetan]

I used to think the comparison was silly as well.

When I was in the Sea Org, I thought I was pretty committed, but I couldn’t imagine I would ever ‘drop the body’ just because my CO said so.

But the more I have read about the state of The Cult, particularly the Sea Org and DM’s temper tantrums, the more I see it as a possibility. I don’t think most Sea Ogres would willingly do this, but I can honestly see The Dwarfenfuhrer initiating his own Final Solution and taking revenge on those he believed failed him. The lawsuits are coming thick and fast now, he has been named in a least one major court battle and more are bound to follow, law-enforcement have raided Narconons and uncovered fraudulent dealings, major events are being cancelled – it’s all going to hell in a small, handled receptacle used for transporting objects. I don’t think it would take much more to push him over the edge, particularly if he is cornered and has no way out.

Yes, most of us would never consider killing ourselves on the orders of a screaming dwarf.

Then again, most of us would never put up with accepting beatings from a screaming dwarf. Yet the people at Int have been conditioned into accepting all sorts of beatings and abuse.

Int is another world, and we cannot apply the standards of our world to them, as far as predicting what they would or would not do. A mass killing would not need to involve drinking poisoned Kool-Aid. It could be as simple as everybody being herded into a large room for a DM briefing, and him locking the only door and flipping a switch that floods the room with poison gas.

ADDING: The poison gas approach would not even be hard. You can buy tanks of compressed carbon monoxide, ammonia gas, and other lethal items.

 

[Deeana]

Are there firearms at INT Base? Handguns? Rifles?

I seem to remember reading something a long time ago written by someone who was out who said there was quite a cache of rifles there. Sorry but at this point I cannot remember who wrote it. But I remember it was also talking about people on motorcycles patrolling the perimeters and I remember that at the time I was picturing a guy on a motorcycle with a rifle.

In light of some of the mass shootings we have seen over these past few years, I would not rule out anything when it comes to a psychotic cult leader.


Eta: Here it is. Easily found with google!

Scroll down to "Scientology is armed and dangerous"
http://www.xenu.net/archive/ronthenut/tabayoyo.htm

 

[Enthetan]

Are there firearms at INT Base? Handguns? Rifles?
.

Yes. There are firearms on the base for security, and DM reportedly has his own personal firearms.

 

[Winston Smith]

Yeah, a Scientologist is entitled to take anybody's body as long as the Scientologist is OT. Otherwise, it's totally out-ethics and frowned upon.

HA. Does the body taken have any say in this transaction? If someone took mine, I would think they were nuts. Now taking yours might make some sense.

 

[Winston Smith]

Yes. There are firearms on the base for security, and DM reportedly has his own personal firearms.

Wonder if they are proficient. Anyone hear about target practice there? The USMC spends lots of money training to the level of expert marksman, just wonder if Davie does the same.

 

[Udarnik]

Wonder if they are proficient. Anyone hear about target practice there? The USMC spends lots of money training to the level of expert marksmen, just wonder if Davie does the same.

With hi cap mags and a cowed target set, spray and pray may work just as well as aimed shots. The question is, will security go with Davie or frag him?

 

[Deeana]

For those not familiar with military jargon:


/frag/

military slang

noun

noun: frag; plural noun: frags


1.
a hand grenade.


verb

verb: frag; 3rd person present: frags; past tense: fragged; past participle: fragged; gerund or present participle: fragging

1.

deliberately kill (an unpopular senior officer), typically with a hand grenade.



Used during Vietnam War as a self-protective device against FNG COs by troops, especially USMC. Or so I was told.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Wonder if they are proficient. Anyone hear about target practice there? The USMC spends lots of money training to the level of expert marksman, just wonder if Davie does the same.

I've heard several accounts of target practice. The only one of them I can find right now is from a story in the LA Times (page 2 of article):

Miscavige, a firearms enthusiast, introduced Cruise to skeet shooting at the compound, according to an ex-member who said the actor was so grateful that he sent an automated clay-pigeon launcher to replace an older, hand-pulled model. With Cruise due to return in a few days, Miscavige again ordered all hands on deck, this time to renovate the base's skeet range, the ex-member said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fi-scientology18dec18,0,7329737.story?page=2

 

[Type4_PTS]

I've heard several accounts of target practice. The only one of them I can find right now is from a story in the LA Times (page 2 of article):

I found a couple more references over here:
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyscandals/fourthsecret.htm

"Obsessed with security, church boss David Miscavige reportedly likes to shoot photos of perceived enemies with a .45 automatic."

From Interview with Jesse Prince:
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyscandals/fourthsecret.htm


L=Lawrence Wollersheim


L: So they have weapons in the main security office.

J: And in the booths. Shotguns.

L: Do any of the Scientology executives, like Miscavige or Rath...

J: Every one of them has extensive... I know David Miscavige has at
least 3 or 4 gun cabinets full of all different kind of rifles, hand
guns, this type of thing. Norman Starkey, the same, he even has an
elephant gun there, that just knocks you away. L. Ron Hubbard was
fascinated with guns. Richard Aznaran, his first introduction to doing
something with L. Ron Hubbard that I know of, besides being his
personal secretary, was to be his gun IC. This was to take the
extensive amount of guns he has, which I would say would be over 40,
50 guns and rifles, and make sure that they're cleaned, buy new ones.
He would go up there and test them. People in RTC would buy him guns,
he would shoot them and say, "Oh, this is really nice." It was
definite gun activity.

L: Were there any military weapons?

J: Yeah. [BOTH TALKING AT ONCE] R-18s, mini-14's.

L: Uzi's, anything like automatic or semi-automatic illegal guns.

J: All of them were semi-automatic that I knew of. I didn't know of
any fully-automatic weapons. The Uzi's, yep.

L: They had Uzi's?

J: David Miscavige has an Uzi.

L: David Miscavige has an Uzi. Any of the other executives?

J: Mark Yeager had quite an array of guns at the time I was there. Ron
Miscavige, David Miscavige's younger brother, or older brother -

L: Why did they say they had all these guns? Did they ever make a comment
why they had so many guns?

J: For security.

L: It wasn't a hobby they were collecting antique guns?

J: Well, it was a dual - No, no, not antique guns. The best
state-of-the-art guns. It was security purposes in case anything ever
happened, they felt protected, because they had their arms, their
guns. It was definitely a personal thing.

L: Do you think if the government was going to go in and arrest David
Miscagive and these top people that they would possibly respond?

J: In a standoff? Yes.

L: In a standoff. So they would respond with guns?

J: Yes.

​

 

[Purple Rain]

The other thing is, when you walk down the sidewalk outside ASHO, Scientologists make a gun with their fingers and a shooting noise as they aim it at your head. The message is clear and decidedly chilling. You know what they want to do to you - what they would if only they could get away with it. They want you to know.

 

[Winston Smith]

The other thing is, when you walk down the sidewalk outside ASHO, Scientologists make a gun with their fingers and a shooting noise as they aim it at your head. The message is clear and decidedly chilling. You know what they want to do to you - what they would if only they could get away with it. They want you to know.

Oh is this some new recruiting technology? Do they think this will win hearts and minds?

 

[Lermanet_com]

The other thing is, when you walk down the sidewalk outside ASHO, Scientologists make a gun with their fingers and a shooting noise as they aim it at your head. The message is clear and decidedly chilling. You know what they want to do to you - what they would if only they could get away with it. They want you to know.

Well, Hubbard did like being referred to as "The Old Man"
the rest of that line out of antiquity is: "The Old Man of the Mountain"
which was the name of the leader of the Assassins Cult in the Middle East...

 

[Purple Rain]

Well, Hubbard did like being referred to as "The Old Man"
the rest of that line out of antiquity is: "The Old Man of the Mountain"
which was the name of the leader of the Assassins Cult in the Middle East...

I never knew that, Arnie! Thank you so much!

 

[Lermanet_com]

I never knew that, Arnie! Thank you so much!

Welcome, here's the cite: "The Templars and the Assassins, The Militia of Heaven" by James Wasserman

Related: A 2006 FAQ on attempted murders by $cientology LINK

 

[Type4_PTS]

Related: A 2006 FAQ on attempted murders by $cientology LINK

Those are just the attempts that we KNOW about.

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

jesus...

back in the day active people could and did speak openly and well

but...

actually i'm surprised DM managed to hold on for a quarter of a century before a CoS crisis of this magnitude arose

not too shabby dave...

I just have to ask you commander if, as a perhaps dianetic christian, you have ever considered that the 'devil' has/would offer/demonstrate magic
for the purpose of misdirecting away from the will of God?

 

[Udarnik]

Well, Hubbard did like being referred to as "The Old Man"
the rest of that line out of antiquity is: "The Old Man of the Mountain"
which was the name of the leader of the Assassins Cult in the Middle East...

Yes, but Hubbard liked it because it's used by Marines to refer to their Battalion (or rarely Company) Commander and Sailors to refer to their ship's Captain, be he a LT CMDR, CMDR or CPT (or higher on a Flag vessel). As a Lieutenant j.g., he never earned the right to be referred to as that, he'd have been referred to as "the El Tee" or something like that. So just as he stole the formal rank of Commodore, he stole the informal rank title that went with it. I don't think he had enough history at the top of his mind or thought about it hard enough to go all the way back to the Assasin's Cult. It was pure stolen valor.

 

[Lermanet_com]

Yes, but Hubbard liked it because it's used by Marines to refer to their Battalion (or rarely Company) Commander and Sailors to refer to their ship's Captain, be he a LT CMDR, CMDR or CPT (or higher on a Flag vessel). As a Lieutenant j.g., he never earned the right to be referred to as that, he'd have been referred to as "the El Tee" or something like that. So just as he stole the formal rank of Commodore, he stole the informal rank title that went with it. I don't think he had enough history at the top of his mind or thought about it hard enough to go all the way back to the Assasin's Cult. It was pure stolen valor.

That is a good assumption, however, we know Hubbard was into black magic, satanism if you will.. his own son said

"Penthouse: Do you think they would stop at murder?


Hubbard: Many wouldn't. The one super-secret sentence that Scientology is built on is: "Do as thou wilt." That is the whole of the law. It also comes from the black magic, from Alistair Crowley."

And Wasserman was also a satanist...

 

[Purple Rain]

That is a good assumption, however, we know Hubbard was into black magic, satanism if you will.. his own son said

"Penthouse: Do you think they would stop at murder?


Hubbard: Many wouldn't. The one super-secret sentence that Scientology is built on is: "Do as thou wilt." That is the whole of the law. It also comes from the black magic, from Alistair Crowley."

And Wasserman was also a satanist...

Hubbard seemed to frequently delight in layers of meaning - often contradictory.