Interesting Comments from Marty's blog

Zhongjianren

Patron with Honors
In find the following comments by Joe Pendleton to be interesting. I also find interesting the fact that Marty posted them.

For what little it may be worth, I'm starting to see confront and questioning -- albeit perhaps on a gradient scale.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/heretics-and-the-scientology-inquisition/#comment-143406

Joe Pendleton | August 19, 2011 at 10:48 pm | Reply


Sam, I always appreciate your comments even when I have a different point of view. My own viewpoint is that it is never one person putting all the rest of us at effect. It most definately IS :”us.” Every time we went into agreement and created the postulate that there is only one truth in the universe and that our own viewpoints are only cognitions off of THAT truth, we set the stage for the current authoritarian COS that we see now. Responsibility means the election of cause, and that electing is oneself. Certainly, YOU, Sam Domingo are taking responsibility with your communication and I admire and salute you for that. I’m just saying we (and I include myself) need to take responsibility for all the years in Scientology that we formed our postulates completely (turning on a dime on ANY subject) about everything JUST because Ron said it is true (without actual inspection). That, my friend, is a VERY bad habit to begin. It IS the road to becoming a “bot”. Check out your current Church of Scientology. The suppression in the Christian churches started with the Apostle Paul’s letters and the suppression in Islam started with Mohammed. THEY insisted on THEIR orthodoxy and so it went. Of course, folks can always go the Buddhist way. 99% of Buddhist’s just never study Buddhism at all, they just go to the temple, “make merit” and pray to Lord Buddha and they’re all quite content about being Buddhists and they don’t even concern themselvves with orthodoxy, heresy, punishments, etc and you know what? They seem happier than most folks in the world (I live in a Buddhist country by the way).
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/heretics-and-the-scientology-inquisition/#comment-143417

Joe Pendleton | August 19, 2011 at 11:14 pm | Reply


There’s “early Ron” and you can quote his writings and lectures for years on the self-determinism of a being, the right to create one’s universe, the inherent nature of a being to postulate viewpoints and truths (Axion #2), etc etc etc and these are all quite beautiful and I never get tired of reading them over and over. They are my truths too and I feel better and happier as a being as a result of LRH’s work in this area of life. In evaluating Scientology as a complete religious activity, I do think you have to give equal attention to “middle Ron” and “late Ron” as well. Because by the mid 60s, when YOU were in Scientology, YOU did not have the right to have your own viewpoint on anything really. It took me almost 40 years to fully realize this. Even back in 1971, as we got each new PL or HCO B hot off the press at our org, we had a “new truth” every single week. And I’m not talking about only philosophic/spiritual truths. One day people can wear perfume and the next day, there is a new truth about perfume accepted by EVERYONE. One day you can drink Diet Coke and the next day, aspartame is a brain killer (not that I disagree with LRH on these points by the way. I don’t like artificial scents and don’t use aspartame myself. I’m just pointing out the robotic accepting of truths because of COMPLETE adherence to religious orthodoxy). One day a new CS Series issue comes out that tells the CS how to be completely unreasonable when handling auditor failures on metering (which I applied completely) and now you read in the big E meter book (2003 edition anyway) that the American Mark V didn’t FN (say what?) – so I guess it wasn’t all the auditor after all. As Groucho Marx once said in an old movie where he played a king talking to his people “Well, are you going to believe me or your own eyes?” It would NEVER have occurred to me to question the E-Meter being fucked, of course – LRH said it was perfect and always was truthful if your TRs and metering was in. I guess he was wrong. So he had to come up with a new meter. But we all know that THAT meter was perfectly workable, don’t we? Oh, excuse me, a new one came out after that edition, and THAT one was perfect. LRH said so. See, the point is, now that Ron has passed away, the folks need SOMEONE ELSE to tell them what to think and do. Miscavige’s BIG mistake (as far as his own survival as a leader goes) is that he went too far,in being an asshole. Had he just been NICER to his main men, there would be no Indie movement, because we Earth folks just LOVE to follow the leader, with the exceptions of the percentage of folks who always tend towards going their own way.So let’s celebrate “early Ron’s” writings about the sancity of invidual beingness and creativity of thought and postulate, but let’s not pretend that LRH himself held to this point of view throughout his life, because he obviously didn’t.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/heretics-and-the-scientology-inquisition/#comment-143507

Joe Pendleton | August 20, 2011 at 3:32 am | Reply
Well, of course you know, Ingrid, that I agree with you and I agree with that quote COMPLETELY. Which is why it is so ironic that in Scientology we didn’t MUCH practice that. I’m not saying we NEVER did or anything like that. There are always enlightened people around. LRH says what you quoted, and yet there are a lot (a LOT – I did a re-study of SSII a few months ago) of policies REALLY stressing “non compliance to orders” and emphasizing how executives fail mainly in not getting their juniors to comply to orders. I’m not trying to be argumentative here, as I think we are fundamentally in agreement. And as we worked together when we were very young, we have similar experiences with the same people. My only point here (and I realize I may sound somewhat obsessed on occasion about this, which is why I try not to post too often) is that there are seeds to the current situation in the Church of Scientology. There are postulates, agreements, habits, viewpoints which were not formed in 2002, 1992, or 1982 that have resulted in the third dyamic the COS is today. And I think it is important that we know what those are, because they are postulates that seem to spring up all over the whole track. I am suprised that there sometimes seems to be only “two camps.” If one questions the truth or validity of anything LRH wrote, then it is perceived by some as some sort of an attack, wherein Ron and his writings need to be defended or praised. On the other side, you have someone like Jeff Hawkins, (whose website I loved, and many of whose ideas really struck a note with me) who has decided that because of some things he no longer agrees are true, there are no great fundamental truths of LRH’s to celebrate. I have reached the point in life where I can do both. I CAN disagree and decide there are things LRH wrote that I think are wrong and unworkable, and yet I live every day having successes due the ideas of LRH which ARE great truths for me….the ARC Triangle, the Tone Scale, the Theta-Mest theory, the fundamental nature of a being, the comm cycle, the absolute brilliance of processes and auditing procedure…and I could go on and on. I never mean to minimize those great achievements.
 

ClamSource

Patron with Honors
Of course, if someone flat out lies to you, says things like "this is totally scientifically proven" and that's a flat out lie, you don't have to take full responsibility for being duped.
 

Krautfag

Patron Meritorious
Why are you trying so hard to make Rathbun palatable to the posters on ESMB?

Stell dich nicht so an :p

I don't think he tried to do that. It's just interesting when the usual circle jerk over there is broken by actual thinking about Elron and what he did over the course of all the years. So I say "good find, zhong". And thanks for taking the pain to read all of the comments over there, my tl;dr kicks in really quick at Marty's comment section most times. :coolwink:
 

Veda

Sponsor
Comments such as this one are occasionally allowed through. In the Internet age, the new breed of Marty-ite/Hubbardite has to be able to contend with such views. Have there been any responses yet? Why not post those too? Plus post Rathbun's response if there is one.
 

Captain Koolaid

Patron Meritorious
It's interesting.

We have all been there and learning how people begin to break the bubble is all to the good. If you're not interested, don't read.

I don't see MR breaking the bubble, but that's just my opinion. But there is no doubt that MR feels contempt for this board (ESMB = natterboard). So those who are interested will read anyway. I didn't demand that he quits advertising the latest Rathbun ramblings, I'm simply interested why the OP thinks we should cut MR some slack when MR considers most posters here as natterers and haters who would never be allowed to post their own opinion on his blog?
 

Captain Koolaid

Patron Meritorious
Comments such as this one are occasionally allowed through. In the Internet age, the new breed of Marty-ite/Hubbardite has to be able to contend with such views. Have there been any responses yet? Why not post those too? Plus post Rathbun's response if there is one.

Or maybe MR is too exhausted from the epic battle with the Squirrel busters and failed to spot the entheta aimed to besmirch the good name of L.Ron Hubbard. :)
 

ClamSource

Patron with Honors
Marty's sole income comes from the tech. So his blog must be seen for what it is, Marty's vehicle for advertising his auditing business. It will never be the place to objectively appraise Scientology. Especially so when Marty disallows any entheta posts.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I don't see MR breaking the bubble, but that's just my opinion. But there is no doubt that MR feels contempt for this board (ESMB = natterboard). So those who are interested will read anyway. I didn't demand that he quits advertising the latest Rathbun ramblings, I'm simply interested why the OP thinks we should cut MR some slack when MR considers most posters here as natterers and haters who would never be allowed to post their own opinion on his blog?

The quote is not from Marty. :)
 

koki

Silver Meritorious Patron
Sam - replay on replay on replay on her own comment.
no need for further explanation ,about lunatics over there.....
(lunatic=$cientologist).

Big hello from Croatia.
 

Zhongjianren

Patron with Honors
Again, I think the content is significant, and the fact that Marty posted it is significant. YMMV.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/heretics-and-the-scientology-inquisition/#comment-143584

WindWalker | August 20, 2011 at 4:45 pm | Reply

dankoon

I think you have the right “who” for most of the current situation “the church of Scientology” finds itself in, but I personally think we have to look a lot deeper in order to actually “handle the situation and any danger in it”. It could easily happen that, with David Miscavige out of the picture, you might simply find another “messiah” steps up and takes the reins. When power is to be had, power mongers will covet it.

To me the real problem has an “earlier beginning”. Something was already wrong, or missing, in order for him to have been able to accomplish what he has.

I do not believe that that flaw will be found within the philosophy or auditing technologies of Dianetics or Scientology, I believe that the flaw is in “policy.”

I like this definition of “policy” in this application (from “Modern Management Technology Defined”)
14. a method of bringing about agreement and communication along certain matters which lead to a higher level of survival. They lead to a higher level of survival if they are good policies, they lead to a lower level of survival if they are poor policies and they lead to complete disaster if they are bad policies. (SH Spec 57 6504C06)

I think I can safely say that we are pretty much looking at “disaster” here.

Those “poor policies” and “bad policies” need to be ferreted out and replaced with “good policies” if we expect any likelihood of “preventing the condition from recurring”. If Scientology, as a group, or maybe even as a subject, is to survive, IT MUST CHANGE ITS UNWORKABLE AND DAMAGING POLICIES. I do not think that these will be “little” policies either. They will likely be some of the major operating policies. And I think that it would be extremely unwise to only look at “recent” policies.

My “departure ” from Scientology is based on my recognition that I could no longer abide by certain of its POLICIES.

The madman in charge is running the “church” like a sociopath on meth, granted, but flaws in policy gave him the key that opened the door for him.

That is my two cents.

Eric S
 

Captain Koolaid

Patron Meritorious
Allen Stanfield | August 20, 2011 at 3:08 pm | Reply

Has anyone ever considered that when Scientology is applied to a broad population, it works on some people, but on a lot of others it does not work at all. And on some others, it is actually harmful.

And so when you are David Miscavige, and you look out across time at all the legal troubles Scientology has had, maybe he has made the decision, based on his own experience and viewpoint at the top, that it is a legal liability to apply Scientology too broadly.

That’s why he re-arranged the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course to take out all the auditing actions until the end. That’s the reason for EVERYONE being taken off what they are on and being put on “The Basics”. That’s why he is emphasizing donations for buildings rather than delivering auditing and auditor training for income – especially the Class 8 course.

Scientology does not work 100% of the time, even when correctly applied. And because so much money is involved, and because there are so many misrepresentations and hidden undue influences built into the subject, it consistently gets into costly legal difficulties.

So DM’s answer is to become like a regular “Church” – reg donations from parishioners, and don’t deliver so much auditing.

I think DM has decided that the more you deliver Scientology, the more trouble you get in. That’s what I think.

Allen Stanfield

martyrathbun09 | August 20, 2011 at 4:06 pm | Reply

Allen, Are you now getting the idea why I think you do such great service to David Miscavige?
Allen Stanfield | August 20, 2011 at 4:12 pm | Reply

Not really.

But if you’d care to lay out your argument for why I do such a great service to DM, using specifics, I would definitely read and do my very best to understand your viewpoint.
atcause | August 20, 2011 at 5:54 pm | Reply

“Allen Stanfield” is the same guy who use to post on ESMB under the name of “Alonzo”.

Typical ESMB, suppressive, ignorant, no case gain viewpoint. Alonzo isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.
Just Me | August 20, 2011 at 4:26 pm | Reply

Allen Stanfield: “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ….”
atcause | August 20, 2011 at 5:50 pm | Reply

“Scientology does not work 100% of the time, even when correctly applied.”

How do you know that?
Ingrid smith | August 20, 2011 at 7:18 pm | Reply

Allen-Are you one of the people it didn’t work on?

Some other quotes from the same blog post. Not remarkable at all.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Again, I think the content is significant, and the fact that Marty posted it is significant. YMMV.

The content IS significant. :yes:

Excellent post by Dan Koon where he basically said that the disaster that has happened within the CoS including DM getting himself into the position that he has is due to bad policies by Hubbard. :thumbsup:

And he's getting people to look back BEFORE DM got started as there had to be a bad situation prior to DM or else he wouldn't have been able to come into power in the first place.

Dan Koon

I think you have the right “who” for most of the current situation “the church of Scientology” finds itself in, but I personally think we have to look a lot deeper in order to actually “handle the situation and any danger in it”. It could easily happen that, with David Miscavige out of the picture, you might simply find another “messiah” steps up and takes the reins. When power is to be had, power mongers will covet it.

To me the real problem has an “earlier beginning”. Something was already wrong, or missing, in order for him to have been able to accomplish what he has.

I do not believe that that flaw will be found within the philosophy or auditing technologies of Dianetics or Scientology, I believe that the flaw is in “policy.”

IF Scientology is to ever reform in a meaningful way, and I don't believe it can, but if it can, then the crazy policies, advices, orders, etc. from Hubbard must be removed. So for Dan to acknowledge that there ARE bad policies which caused the current situation then this is a good start.



atcause | August 20, 2011 at 5:54 pm | Reply

“Allen Stanfield” is the same guy who use to post on ESMB under the name of “Alonzo”.

Typical ESMB, suppressive, ignorant, no case gain viewpoint. Alonzo isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed

Just going to point out here that "Atcause" is speaking in broad generalities here as well as exhibiting other characteristics that Hubbard described as belonging to that of a Suppressive Person.

But I guess that it is OK for Marty to allow those types of comments on his board. As long as they are directed at one of the people who express unauthorized opinions criticizing Scientology. :whistling:
 

Veda

Sponsor
The content IS significant. :yes:

Excellent post by Dan Koon where he basically said that the disaster that has happened within the CoS including DM getting himself into the position that he has is due to bad policies by Hubbard. :thumbsup:

And he's getting people to look back BEFORE DM got started as there had to be a bad situation prior to DM or else he wouldn't have been able to come into power in the first place.

-snip-

That's fine.

But the demarcation between tech and policy is false.

Tech is Hubbard's "What to do and how to do it instructions."

There is Dissemination tech, Ethics tech, PR tech, Intelligence tech, Spying tech, Covert attack tech, Organizational Tech, legal harassment tech, etc.

It's all tech.

As for auditing tech - there's the Bridge Grade Chart, and the enforced pattern of where certain actions are to be done - for example dianetics before lower grades - is what? It's policy.

It all boils down to Hubbard's instructions. Call it what you will.

The entire subject of Scientology from 1950 forward is screwed up.

It's a mix of truth and destructive slants.

Some "slow cogniter," after decades of being an obedient minion to Hubbard, deciding that some pieces of "policy" are a problem, preventing the Scientology juggernaut from succeeding, is hardly a breakthrough.

The original post (with was a good post) was allowed through. Who knows why?

Still, it would be helpful to see ALL the responses including Marty's.
 
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Smilla

Ordinary Human
I can't be bothered reading through all the Amway promo on Marty's blog. Or was it Herbalife, or Scientology or something? Yes, Scientology - that was it.

Kramer_SnakeOil.jpg
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
I value Zhong's pasting various snippets of Marty's blog over here. I rarely go over there myself (only if linked) and so I'd miss out on what's going on.

As he said earlier, he labels all his threads with "Marty" - so it makes it easy to ignore if you want to.

Maybe I need to start a "Marty" section so they can all be filed there?
 
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