Is any ex truly out?

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
So why did you start this thread? :confused2:

I posted and discussed things. The posts with those enjoyable and interesting exchanges can be seen in many spots on this thread. I mean, why does anybody bring up anything on this board or anywhere else? Cuz it seems like a good idea at the time. Judging by the spirited discussions here, seems to have gone ok.
 

Good twin

Floater
I posted and discussed things. The posts with those enjoyable and interesting exchanges can be seen in many spots on this thread. I mean, why does anybody bring up anything on this board or anywhere else? Cuz it seems like a good idea at the time. Judging by the spirited discussions here, seems to have gone ok.

Yes. I thought it was an interesting discussion. I was just hoping you didn't regret starting it. They don't always go the way we think they will. :)
 

Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
"Out" to me is not letting the "church" control you. However you may be put in a really bad spot because of family connections and disconnection.
 

Good twin

Floater
I talked on the phone today with a newly out OT. We aren't the same kind of out exactly, but out is out. The way this former OT described the feeling of relief and freedom is how every brand of ex feels. I'm happy for all exes.
:happydance:
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
I talked on the phone today with a newly out OT. We aren't the same kind of out exactly, but out is out. The way this former OT described the feeling of relief and freedom is how every brand of ex feels. I'm happy for all exes.
:happydance:

Me, too.

I'm puzzled about a friend I know whom I've recently been in touch with who is "in" but doesn't do any more Scn and has no problems with stating his/her opinions of what is wrong with COS.

But still believes in Scn and I don't expect I will ever influence or change that much so I don't bring (that) up. Not for a while, anyway. I'm thrilled to pieces to discover there is a very large and powerful group of "ins" who oppose COS mgmt.

Perhaps even a majority of active Scns.

This is a new breed to me. I'm not sure how to deal with my friend? This is a stubborn person, btw, who could cut me off at any time - we've only recently been back in touch.
 

Good twin

Floater
Me, too.

I'm puzzled about a friend I know whom I've recently been in touch with who is "in" but doesn't do any more Scn and has no problems with stating his/her opinions of what is wrong with COS.

But still believes in Scn and I don't expect I will ever influence or change that much so I don't bring (that) up. Not for a while, anyway. I'm thrilled to pieces to discover there is a very large and powerful group of "ins" who oppose COS mgmt.

Perhaps even a majority of active Scns.

This is a new breed to me. I'm not sure how to deal with my friend? This is a stubborn person, btw, who could cut me off at any time - we've only recently been back in touch.

With tolerance and compassion. Something they don't get from the cult. :yes:
 
... I'm thrilled to pieces to discover there is a very large and powerful group of "ins" who oppose COS mgmt.

Perhaps even a majority of active Scns.

This is a new breed to me. ...

Back in the late '70s there were substantial numbers of scientologists who intentionally stayed away from church management in droves although still identifying as scientologists. They were known as the 'disaffected field'. The Great Schism of the '80s caused many of these to split off completely from the church and go their own ways.


Mark A. Baker
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
With tolerance and compassion. Something they don't get from the cult. :yes:

:yes: And focus on the individual, I think.

Panda, please add your advice. This is where you really excel. I am meeting up with this person fairly soon...
 
:yes: And focus on the individual, I think.

Panda, please add your advice. This is where you really excel. I am meeting up with this person fairly soon...

What's to advise? Be there for the person. Listen to what they say. Understand it. Acknowledge it. Nothing else is needed.

There is certainly no need to 'handle'.

Taking a little hint from Shakespeare ...

... and we
give express charge, that in our marches through the
country, there be nothing compelled from the
villages, nothing taken but paid for, none of the
French upbraided or abused in disdainful language;
for when lenity and cruelty play for a kingdom, the
gentler gamester is the soonest winner. ....

Henry V, Act III, Sc. 6, ll. 1572-1578
http://www.opensourceshakespeare.or...henry5&Scope=entire&pleasewait=1&msg=pl#a3,s6


Mark A. Baker
p.s. I love Branagh's performance. :coolwink:
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
You'll do fine. :hug: Right, Panda?
Exactly. Good Twin nailed it, in any event; tolerance, understanding and compassion goes a long way. That's what most scientologists really hunger for, IMO. I have many friends who still believe in the workability of scientology. I support and help them in any way I can.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Good Twin,

I think this thread has gone really well. We've had some fun food for thought on this and people seem to be enjoying the discussion.

And re what some of you were mentioning yesterday- I think that it truly is important to keep in mind that all we exes want the same thing. An end to the cult, an end to the predation. I sometimes think that there are times when not everyone keeps that in mind. I do not for one minute believe that ANYONE (including me) on this thread wants anything but the best for others and by "best" I mean that the cult should be GONE. Not reformed. GONE.

Nobody who feels that way could possibly be destructive to other critics or any sort of "troublemaker".
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
IF you are going to make that argument (and no, I don't recommend it :) ) THEN you also need to account for the fact that many of those who lay claim to being 'done with scientology' or 'having no interest in scientology' nonetheless still demonstrate at every opportunity how utterly fixated upon the subject they remain.

Here I am, late as usual. Mark, I think there's a difference between being out and being *done*. Some people move on, some people feel compelled to ensure that others don't make the same mistakes as them. Either attitude is noble in its own way, IMHO.
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
Why care about the truths he [Hubbard] might have said?

I want to revisit this, because I think it's important to consider the nature of Hubbard's very light acquaintance with truth.

It would be one thing if Hubbard was a real philosopher who was right about some of his observations and wrong about others. That isn't the case. Hubbard intentionally used "truth" to further his ends.

One example: Hubbard intentionally borrowed workable psychiatric techniques (and claimed them as his own) in order to convince people that his teachings were valid. He then used this foundation of truth to sell people on his sci-fi bullshit.

Another example: A good deal of Hubbard's lectures is over-analyzing simple known truths. The goal here is to get his clients so focused on the minutiae of what he said that they ignored the big picture... and the world around them. It's all part of the Scientology scam: Keep people looking inwards.

I think the issue here is mixing "factual" and "truthful." Just because Hubbard said things that were factual, does not mean he was truthful. He used facts to get agreement, and once he had agreement, he made up his own facts.

That is why, to me, the "truths" that Hubbard told have little bearing or credibility. Hubbard was as full o' shit as an overflowing septic tank. Realizing that is a key step to being "out".
 

Caliwog

Patron Meritorious
One more thought... here's my acid test.

If you can say "L. Ron Hubbard was an ignorant, lying, power-hungry, piece of shit con man whose net effect on the word was to cause misery and pain," and not feel a twinge of guilt about that, you are OUT! :)
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Well, speaking for myself, my litmus test was -- could I use the ideas in my life and have it work out? The answer was yes, in many cases.

Now, that being said, I will say that using the scales, formulae, TRs, processes- none of that fucked me up. But that I think there were times when the processes didn't do as much for me in a lasting and deep way than I'd thought. Sometimes they did, but mostly they did not. I felt some temporary relief, I had some realizations, that was it.

So one may think, ok, the realizations- isn't that what you were striving for? Well, yeah, it's supposed to mean that YOU have the tools to "DIY", to deal with your own crap. (I'm resolutely not using Scn terms here). But you know what's funny? I feel like the realizations and insights I get from meditating do more for me.

Why is that, I wonder?

Could it be that I (maybe others?) respond better to a more intuitive approach than one that spells out every blessed teeny weeny little step- as auditing would-?
 
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