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Is consciousness expansion dead?

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
Veda was mystified why Ingo did not mention being a Scientologist in the "wog" world, so I asked Veda if he'd ever been in Scn and he confirmed that he was not in fact an "exScn." But apparently the subject has him captivated in some way. Maybe he's writing a book...
I wondered about that. Veda and I had a short exchange recently regarding someone's testimony that struck me as quite fanciful. Veda seemed to take it seriously. Much as I like to play the 'what a bunch of kooks' game, I am of the opinion that Scientologists, while they like to chat up the extraordinary, are really just ordinary folks.
 

This is NOT OK !!!!

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Veda was mystified why Ingo did not mention being a Scientologist in the "wog" world, so I asked Veda if he'd ever been in Scn and he confirmed that he was not in fact an "exScn." But apparently the subject has him captivated in some way. Maybe he's writing a book...
I I remember correctly, VEDA in fact had an extensive history in Scientology as a trained auditor in the organized church and later at Mayo's center.
 

Veda

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Veda was mystified why Ingo did not mention being a Scientologist in the "wog" world

-snip-
Not mystified at all.

Someone writing a fact based book on his personal experiences with remote viewing (which was, as initially described by Ingo Swann, not clairvoyance, but a vivid out of body experience, who omits entirely his experience with Scientology, is simply not being honest.

Scientology deserves at least a footnote, if only to describe it as one of the many topics he examined and as a manipulative cult that exploits people's interest in the paranormal.

And perhaps it was mentioned, but, so far, no one can find any mention of it.
 

Leland

Crusader
I agree with Veda.

Ingo from what I've read here has been disingenuous at best.

Edited: But certainly there are plenty of Cult Members that never promoted the Cult....and kept their involvement secret....on the other hand.
 

Veda

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I don't know if not being an "exScn" means one is a current one or a never been in one.

I am an ex Scientologist.

As wild and raring to go as Ingo was when I knew him for those brief couple of weeks, he must have been entirely dejected to learn what a cheesy rip off 2nd hand occult version of the real thing it was. I'm sure he would have wanted to never be reminded of his folly ever again.[bcolor=#ffffff]
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He also wasn't too happy to be reminded of it around the same time you knew him.

The point is that he was an enthusiastic Scientologist while in Scientology and amongst Scientologists in the 1970s, but, also, during that same timer period, when around non Scientologists, he avoided the subject like the plague.
 

Veda

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I agree with Veda.

Ingo from what I've read here has been disingenuous at best.

Edited: But certainly there are plenty of Cult Members that never promoted the Cult....and kept their involvement secret....on the other hand.
That would cover his displeasure upon being asked about it in a non Scientologist setting in 1972/1973, but not his omitting it in his autobiography.

Ingo was not a super enthusiastic, but clueless, follower who, one day, discovered that Scientology was fake, etc. He was more complex than that.

His behavior during his time in Scientology reminds me of the behavior of an anthropologist while visiting pygmies in the rain forest.

The Scientologists thought he was one of them. He was not.

He knew it. They didn't. He played along.
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
I agree with Veda.

Ingo from what I've read here has been disingenuous at best.

Edited: But certainly there are plenty of Cult Members that never promoted the Cult....and kept their involvement secret....on the other hand.
As I didn't follow what Ingo was up to over those years, it was because I had no idea that he was any big deal, but he seemed very genuine to me, but then people always do who turn out not to have been.
But I can see Ingo not wanting to appear a fruitcake and be taken seriously in his chosen endeavor with his involvement in remote viewing and any known involvement with Scientology would have branded him a fruitcake in many circles.
One other reason could be that he didn't wish to steer his followers into such a dead end like Scientology and feel responsible for their ruined lives.
Another reason could have been professional in that his governmental handlers didn't want any focus to become about Scientology.
Then there's the issue of having to field questions about Scientology when the GO was very much to be feared as to how far they'd go to even the score with you per Hubbard's doctrines for even speaking out against them.
Remaining silent about it might have been deemed the smartest thing to do.
 
I rarely discussed my involvement with scientology with anybody when I was in, and not now either. I wasn't 100% convinced it could deliver on it's promises. I had read some OT 3 success stories etc. and some of Hubbard's claims, but I didn't feel I had the results others had from OT3. So I redid R6-EW, the Clearing course and OT 2 and 3 to no avail, no demonstration of abilities other claimed. Thus I had a lot of back off about dissemination, and kept my involvement on the QT. I did however fall into the trap - "it will be handled on your next level" and did OT IV and V and later GAT OT 6 & 7 and a long ass clear program in the flag AO HGC.

Similarly, when I meet or have associations with scios. I don't discuss I have been declared if I value the connection. If not and I want to blow them off I tell them I was declared. Works like magic.

So I can see Ingo ducking the subject.

Mimsey
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
lol lol lol lol lol

absurdity

I work in real technology. Science. patent offices...experiments. proof of concept, markets that test and demand performance, competitors that push functionality to the limits. real world stuff.

yet there you are, blithely ranting about how I am in a "prison of belief".

pure buffoonery.

and on top of that you have no idea what i believe is possible or not. you made all that up for yourself and then communicated it telepathically to yourself.

you have no idea how ridiculous you look lecturing someone who professionally works on research and technology, innovation and real world confirmations with real people and real solutions that either do or don't work.

enjoy your wacky world of superstition and sanctimonious sermonizing--- I still hope you are trolling and not stupid enough to actually believe the weird delusional shit you write. lol
And I do work "on the Seventh Dynamic" whose fruits are in plain sight for all to see

I don't know if anyone recalls, but just before Commander Birdsong was hanged drawn quartered decapitated and his placed on a pike at traitor's gate he spoke of finishing up his work with the Kansas City Royals who ended three decades of losing with a pair of world series and having used them for preliminary practice I announced I would be landing a crown at Wrigley where the Cubs had not been champs since Teddy Roosevelt was in the White House nor appeared in a World Series since 1945 within three years. I figured two but I wanted a little wiggle room. They did it in two.

And I have given the basic outline of the spiritual engineering I'm doing with the Red Sox this year. Haven't had a 100 win season since 1946. They have 94 so far.

But, HH, this is just delusion and hallucination innit?
 

Veda

Sponsor
As I didn't follow what Ingo was up to over those years, it was because I had no idea that he was any big deal, but he seemed very genuine to me, but then people always do who turn out not to have been.
But I can see Ingo not wanting to appear a fruitcake and be taken seriously in his chosen endeavor with his involvement in remote viewing and any known involvement with Scientology would have branded him a fruitcake in many circles.
One other reason could be that he didn't wish to steer his followers into such a dead end like Scientology and feel responsible for their ruined lives.
Another reason could have been professional in that his governmental handlers didn't want any focus to become about Scientology.
Then there's the issue of having to field questions about Scientology when the GO was very much to be feared as to how far they'd go to even the score with you per Hubbard's doctrines for even speaking out against them.
Remaining silent about it might have been deemed the smartest thing to do.
Your points about remaining silent about Scientology all makes sense, yet he was featured in Scientology magazines and, when asked if he was a Scientologist (in a non Scientology environment), would answer affirmatively - if somewhat grudgingly.

Ingo was "mixing practices" and "squirrelling" like crazy, yet he was tolerated. Did he ever mention all the other subjects (all having to do with the mind, etc.) in which he was involved?

He might mention experiments that validated some part of Scientology, etc., but did he mention "other practices," and other authoritative sources of information upon which he drew, when chatting with Scientologists?

My guess is, no.

I think he was as concerned about appearing to be a "fruitcake" (by Scientology standards, ie. a "squirrel." etc.) as he was about appearing to be a fruitcake by "wog" standards.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
A paragraph in the Ann Bailey affidavit.

As I stated, I prefer the affidavit is out there and available for others to read rather than having been Scientologically erased.

That is the main point.
OK, that small paragraph and the 'sex with Ron' incident were the ones that were published. The bulk of that testimony is boring, drearily realistic for the most part and, of course, was ignored. A grain of salt is needed when reading this affidavit.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I'm not going to try to shake your total certainty on the morgue door beneath the Cedars of Lebanon complex.

In 1946, Jack Parsons described Hubbard as "the most thelemic person" he had ever known.

That means having no restictions on personal behavior.

No interest in re-litigating this.

This was my initial response to your view that the story was a fabrication. I'll leave it at that.

To some extent, that was my impression also, many years ago (mid 1980s), when I read it as a paper affidavit (before the Internet existed).

A year later, after having unearthed and examined a vast amount of previously unknown or secret information on the subject, I wasn't so sure.

The young woman who wrote the affidavit was a very real Sea Org member. Although Scientology's OSA descended on her after the affidavit appeared, insisting she was "on drugs" when she wrote it, her statement is detailed and lucid.

Personally, I'm not inclined to so easily dismiss an account of an alleged rape victim, but that's just me.
 

HelluvaHoax!

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It was too real. Also it happened in 1967 - long before I was really well studied in scientology - I was on the DAC, I think, in the NY Academy at the Martinique hotel ball room. I had had some auditing, but I had prior experiences to Scientology of a para-scientific nature, such as when I was in college, running down a flight of stairs - I reached my hand out and caught my Exacta VXIIb camera - I was unaware it's strap snapped. That was a minor premonition. Some stuff with my mom - knowing when she was going to get me from work, going exterior in my college dorm room, a prior life recall, etc.

Mimsey
"I reached my hand out and caught my Exacta VXIIb camera - I was unaware it's strap snapped. That was a minor premonition."

Maybe that was a premonition. Maybe not. I have noticed that you draw many conclusions in your explorations into the paranormal without any mention or inspection of your own assumptions. For example, what if you "reach (your) hand out and caught (your) Exact VXIIb camera" because you WERE aware that it was falling---while being unaware a few short moments later that you had that awareness/perception of an object falling.

I have often had the experience of instantly reaching out INSTINCTIVELY when something began to fall or even slip---and catching in midair--always surprised how impressively accurate that part of the mind/nervous reflexes are. Even a simple life form, like a fly is incredibly hard to hit--because they react in microseconds to avoid a swatter.

What if your own "win" on being so incredibly aware and have a "premonition" were actually based on your UNAWARENESS that your mind/body was simply reacting to a falling object in your immediate and intimate proximity?

I know you don't like anyone to disagree with your conclusions and theories, but this is how "proof of concept" works in the world of science/technology and explorations into the unknown. I work in that field daily and, to be honest (since it is an inordinately expensive thing to finance R&D) I celebrate the process of debunking the theories, assumptions and merit-less conclusions of the many engineers, scientists, surgeons, designers, physicists and other geniuses in the respective fields---because it saves MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to cut it off fast. Rather than pretend to agree and go along with theories that have no fundamentals or proof under them.

By weeding out the weak/unproven ideas, it then becomes possible to move past 99% of the garbage that would drive any R&D company bankrupt and move on to groundbreaking patents, new innovations and life-improving technology.

You react very badly to any critiques of your "method" because it feels like "invalidation" to you. Yet, this is how it works in the professional sciences and incubators and R&D companies that succeed.

Maybe you should stop lecturing professionals who do research (me for example, lol) about how degraded, evil and "fixed" they are in their "aberrated thinking"---and slow the RPMs down low enough to actually learn something about how it works.

I don't think you are a bad guy, but if you are not here trolling (e.g. intentionally using the entire cringey lexicon of special magical words that Hubbard taught you to push others buttons, LOL) then you might want to humble yourself to the task of really learning ALL SIDES of what you are pontificating and lecturing others about.

And......

Just because someone states that you did not prove your theories, it does not mean that they are "against" whatever it is that you are promoting (UFOs, Exteriorization, telepathy...et al). It doesn't mean that they refuse to even consider that it's possible. These are all your mental machinations and imagination. All it means if someone (myself for example) disagrees with your amateurishly incomplete research, which did not sufficiently support your thesis with PROOF OF CONCEPT.

It's a real thing, "proof of concept". It can be seen, tested and measured.

Everything else is subjective and not of much use to anyone except the person who is impressed with their own imagination.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

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Bill - you should read: "Dogs that know when their owners are coming home" or "the sense of being stared at" - both have lots of examples, done under rigorous protocols, statistics of results etc.

Mimsey
You tried selling that as science on another thread maybe a year ago. It did not go well.

What you call "rigorous protocols, statistics of results..." is not what professionals in the field call "rigorous protocols, et al".

You are just using terms you heard, you don't actually know what they mean.

Essentially, you are doing what Hubbard did when he called his first book, the "Modern Science of Mental Health". There was not even one thing scientific (nor true) in that book and the claims it made; yet he called it "science". What he was doing was writing hyperbolic marketing copy. What he was doing was making things up. What he was doing was trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes with a cheap gimmicky charlatan con game. You shouldn't do that. LOL
 
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