Is consciousness expansion dead?

[HelluvaHoax!]

Ok - so you don't agree we should all have an equal voice on forums here? Particularly in the forum dedicated to "Human Potential, Self Discovery" ? Mimsey

Wow, an OT victim! Whatever happened to "Total Cause Over Message Boards"? LOL

 

[George Layton]

Everyone is entitled to their own idea of what a soul is, but LRH's "con" was as much on himself as on everyone else. He failed at what he truly hoped and believed he could achieve, and then proceeded to sell it anyway as an established fact.

Everyone is entitled to their own idea of what truth is. Everyone is entitled to what their own idea of what they experience is. That doesn't make it so. I'll steal a line from Arlo Guthrie, "Just because you think that you've seen the light doesn't mean nobody sold you."
hubbard warned to beware of false data while feeding misinformation. People continue to use the false data that hubbard fed them to teach the "truth".
"What's true for you is true", is one of the most bullshit ideas that keep people from the understanding that they have been duped and have remained duped, some for decades, while continuing to pass on those "truths" that they know are "truths" because, what's true for them is true.

 

[George Layton]

Yeah you make a good point.

I guess what I feel is lacking is the acceptance. I would prefer the term - granting of beingness - because acceptance seems to have a connotation of approval, where granting of beingness seems to not give approval. But, Xenu forbid I should use a Scio term.

This to me is sarcasm:
"Can you demonstrate your OT powers by exteriorizing and letting others witness it? Or are you only OT on the 1st Dynamic? If that is the case, I fully appreciate and understand why you can't demonstrate these powers, because the moment someone else comes into the room, that makes it a third dynamic activity and your exteriorization powers instantly shut down, right?"

I will never change his mind, I know that, further, he is entitled to his viewpoint. However, in expressing his viewpoint in such a manner, I get rankled because his hostility, were there any likeminded people to myself, they will not feel at ease speaking what's real to them.

It's not that I expect to convert anybody - I do think other viewpoints should be allowed. Look at all the shit Terril gets every time he mentions a win he has. Why not say fine, good for you Terril? No. No he's a crazy indi deluded Scientologist and we must flame him.

I know it's an ex- scientologist board, but I don't agree it should be overtly hostile to any ESP mentions /occurrences. Sure, people have been fucked over by Scientology - but should we throw the baby out with the bath water? Have we learned nothing about how to deal with others? Or are we so smug and self assured and cock sure as we were in Scientology - that we are flying 180 degrees in the opposite direction equally reveling in our new non-OT status? Invalidating anything that vaguely resembles the religion we once were ardent supporters of?

Mimsey

The problem I see with the "wins" of scientology is the chance that someone will take up scientology to get those "wins". Regardless of the positive experiences people may have had while in scientology, no one should be presented with the idea that joining scientology will be beneficial for them. scientology is a cult and will always be a cult and is built to trap people and every single benefit that has ever come from scientology will never make it right to convince even one more person to join it. I believe that if you really, truly are concerned about helping people that each time you mention any win you owe it to people to add a disclaimer of the deceptions built into scientology.

 

[DagwoodGum]

The problem I see with the "wins" of scientology is the chance that someone will take up scientology to get those "wins". Regardless of the positive experiences people may have had while in scientology, no one should be presented with the idea that joining scientology will be beneficial for them. scientology is a cult and will always be a cult and is built to trap people and every single benefit that has ever come from scientology will never make it right to convince even one more person to join it. I believe that if you really, truly are concerned about helping people that each time you mention any win you owe it to people to add a disclaimer of the deceptions built into scientology.

No, Scientology is no substitute for trying to expand one's horizons in any area whether that be spiritually or financially.
Hubbard stole the souls of many.
Many he stole the bulk of the best years of their lives.
Some he just stole lots and lots of money.
Some all they had and some all they will ever have.
But I have refused let this con artist effect the course of my life.
I got out after a quick, bang, immersion into it for less than a year during which I trained to class IV and got audited to grade IV as I could get the auditing at half price as a class IV.
But for most of the years prior to that year I just sat on the sidelines watching, making friends and trying to decide whether I should just go for it.
But just because he got some of my money it didn't blunt my goal to have money...
He stole my mind and soul for awhile too, but that didn't blunt my goal to have both fully restored.
Same with my spiritual expansion, I don't want it said in the end that he stopped me.
He didn't, he just slowed me down.
The key to it all which was the best cheese I stole from the jaws of the trap itself was truly knowing how to know!
What? You say, you give him credit for that?
I say yes with this explanation.
I learned to look for the sources he stole it all from.
Some he even listed as credits, at least early on.
Then I went to the public library and read what his sources had to say and that was all about knowing how to know - looking for the mindsets that he burglarized, plagiarized and took credit for.
Not to mention his staff who did all the heavy lifting while his fat ass caught a ride on their efforts.

 

[RogerB]

I've never seen the Amprinistics HCOB. Interesting how LRH condemns others for being like himself!

I'm sure LRH always had dictatorial desires, but he didn't start getting his way until the Flag Land Base in 1975. A lot of Scn's expansion grew out of the hippie and beat movements, with people like Burroughs, Leonard Cohen, joining. At celebrity centre in LA in the 70s it was standard practice for unmarried couples to live together (in the former Wilcox hotel building).

I have/did. I actually went to Scotland (or a town on the border with England) in 1965 to visit the guy who developed that crazy knock-off of Hubbard's stuff. . . all based on "predicates" that predetermine your thinking, being, doing, having.

That is, it grew out of Hubbard's screwed up nutsville GPM tech of '62 and '63.

I've forgotten the name of the guys, but man, he was a solid as a stone wall at 30mph . . . dark, dark as Darth Veda!

Hubbard's evil was that he could not have any "competitor" or other viewpoints on matters he sought to dominate in . . . hence his unrelenting attacks and destructions of anyone Hubbs felt lessened his control of Hubb's areas of interest . . .

What is actually rather "funny" . . . errr, creepy . . . about all this is that Hubbard was very adamant that people who operate as or who seek to be "only ones" are evil and true SPs . . . err, umm, guess who best exemplified and practiced the "only one" game??!!

Yep . . . Hubbard himself.

 

[RogerB]

In response to comments above on why folks might post here on ESMB . . .

I disagree that it is only because of or due to vanity or the overcoming of feelings of personal "inferiority or inadequacy" . . . . That type of comment can only be true in the mind of and thus be the condition resisted by the person making such comment.

I have seen a number of good folks here making comments out of the genuine wish to inform others of useful information, a wish to help, and to answer the questions of others.

 

[DagwoodGum]

I guess you missed my earlier posts wherein I discussed the spontaneous nature of esp. Here's a quote from one of them about Ingo Swann:

"In 1971 Ingo Swann was at the American Society of Psychical Research in New York, participating in a series of experiments being conducted. They were focusing on OOB or OOBE – meaning Out of Body and Out of Body Experiences, respectively.
Ingo wrote an auto-biography in 1996 titled: Remote-Viewing The Real Story: An Autobiographical Memoir.
He described that in early October 1971, he began working with Dr. Karlis Osis at American Society for Psychical Research (ASPR). As I mentioned earlier, they were focusing on Out of Body Experiences (OOBE).
In Chapter 12 of his memoir, we find Swann saying –
My only reservation was that I did not have the least idea of how to float up to the ceiling. I was well aware of the famous OOB phenomena reported world-wide and since antiquity.
I had gotten all of the appropriate books, tried everything suggested in them, to little apparent avail.
Although many, including some of Osis’s other subjects, claimed they could “go OOB at will,” evidence of this was quite slim.
[…] if anyone could go OOB at will, then the world would certainly be a different place, and psychic spying in the OOB state would have already been incorporated into you know where. In 1971 out-of-body experiencing had not yet been hysterically hyped as it was soon to be.
I told Osis that I believed OOB to consist only of spontaneous factors, and usually within some kind of unusual situation, and that I did not know how to do it."
More, including pictures, at: https://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.co...eriorize-after-he-did-scientologys-ot-levels/

You just bullbait me with the same old argument if it can't be done on command it isn't real, that I am a braggadocio about what "OT Abilities" I have.

Dude get over it. I never said I could exteriorize at will nor can I. The things I posted were spontaneous occurrences, as were Ingo's, and many many others that I have read about. Perhaps you have never had such occur to you, and thus you feel your experience trumps mine. Fine!

I will say this - if you and other posters continue to create a hostile environment that scoffs at any "OT abilities" or ESP occurrences, people won't want to post the things they have experienced of that nature. They won't want to suffer the embarrassment you and others put me through. Mind you - this is nothing recent - I have been assailed for years on ESMB on this subject.

You are in effect anti-pathetic and prejudiced against it. And in suppressing any such communication, you are doing just what I posted in my post #85:

"Can you learn anything new if you limit yourself to verifying what you think you already know? This question reaches to the very heart of scientific reliability..."

Mimsey

I got to know Ingo Swann in July of '72 when I was just 17 and volunteering on staff at TC org. He was by far the most enthusiastic personality I had ever met and we used to talk exteriorization and "OT" powers at great lengths."
I'd get chewed out for talking "out gradient subject matter" in the reception area, the accusation being that I was running newbies out with all this talk of OT abilities.
Later I'd find out from people who found their intro dealings such boring shit that they were about to leave only to suddenly find themselves caught up in some fascinating dialogue with this young kid at reception.
I looked too young to be 17, more like 14.
Ingo would hang out in the reception area, sitting on the couch and shooting the breeze with anyone that cared to talk with him as he just seemed to like everyone.
He was very real and in no way phony at all and we really hit it off.
He was only there for a couple of weeks,
I don't remember why or where he disappeared to. I didn't know that I would ever hear his name again.
As far as exteriorization goes, I only did it once since I was a child and it was when a guy hit me unexpectedly with the "be 3 feet back of your head" drill when I was holding reception that summer as a volunteer.
I felt the whole universe shift forward, never perceived myself as having moved, but I also felt myself desperately clawing everything back in place as I somehow couldn't have the experience.
I felt as though I was in danger of loosing my place at the controls of my body and feared I'd never get it back, all within a few milliseconds.
I got bonked on the head in kindergarten at recess and went completely out of body and found myself being lead back to my body by some kind of guide and remember not believing that it was my body I was being lead back to and said "that's NOT me!" and was told "yes it is" while my body just stood there at a counter top looking up at us.
I sensed there was another spirit holding the body ready for my reentry.
I remember seeing the swirl of my cowlick on my head and thinking "oh, I have thicker hair than I thought".
Never happened again till that day at the org, and never again since.
It does, however, keep me from forgetting that I'm a spirit.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Mimsey,

It appears that you don't think people should be allowed to disagree with you -- and when they do, you seem to think it means you can't "have an equal voice".

You might want to rethink this.

You miss my point - while this is an unmoderated forum and any are free to post whatever they wish, and others are free to respond as they see fit, as per the concept of freedom of speech, which I agree to, I feel that by creating a hostile environment,it runs counter to that ideal.

All this sprung from an off hand comment I made about wondering what a stapler felt like, but it got blown out of proportion. I didn't make the comment with the intention of proselytizing my ideas, it was just a quip about an experience I had. Let's let it go.

Mimsey

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Not exactly. He made up stuff about others to discredit them. Often it reflected what he, himself, was, had been, or would soon be doing. He did this throughout the entire history of Scientology.

Scientology is overt and covert; layered and compartmentalized.It's sneaky.

Burroughs was involved in the 1960s - at a safe distance, and as a celebrity - until he went to Britain to do the Clearing Course. He did that course and then left promptly, and soon after wrote a scathing report on the police state practices of 1960s Scientology.

Cohen was only briefly involved, I think only at the New York Org - as a pampered celebrity - during the 1960s and then left.

"LRH" got his way long before 1975.

Again, where are you getting your information?

I believe he got his power processing at NYO. I was on lines there at about that time there, though I never met him. There were some class 7 & 8 auditors delivering power to the staff, per the contract, and it's not a stretch to see them delivering it to him.

Mimsey

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I have/did. I actually went to Scotland (or a town on the border with England) in 1965 to visit the guy who developed that crazy knock-off of Hubbard's stuff. . . all based on "predicates" that predetermine your thinking, being, doing, having.

That is, it grew out of Hubbard's screwed up nutsville GPM tech of '62 and '63.

I've forgotten the name of the guys, but man, he was a solid as a stone wall at 30mph . . . dark, dark as Darth Veda!

Hubbard's evil was that he could not have any "competitor" or other viewpoints on matters he sought to dominate in . . . hence his unrelenting attacks and destructions of anyone Hubbs felt lessened his control of Hubb's areas of interest . . .

What is actually rather "funny" . . . errr, creepy . . . about all this is that Hubbard was very adamant that people who operate as or who seek to be "only ones" are evil and true SPs . . . err, umm, guess who best exemplified and practiced the "only one" game??!!

Yep . . . Hubbard himself.

Hi Roger,

From this, my guess is it was either Harold Thompson or Jack Horner;

https://pierreethier.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/amprinistics/

 

[F.Bullbait]

 

[Empress]

EST started out as Scn group-processing in Frisco, as a promotional tool for the CofS, but he was either expelled or quit. There was a good deal of Mind Dynamics in EST eventually. Back in the day, Scn was more liberal, which is why it did so well. And yes, Werner did take the comm course to extremes, with people doing TR-0 standing up and not allowed to use the bathroom. EST had off-shoots also, such as Lifespring, a supposedly more empathetic version. Another supposed off-shoot of Scn was the Berkeley Psychic Institute (its founder did Scn but it had no real similarity), which had its own offshoots. Another supposed offshoot, associated with the Son of Sam murders, was the Process Church where people were required to adopt the archetype of either Yaweh, Lucifer or Satan (all that's left of the Process Church is an animal sanctuary in Utah). And of course, Tony Levy's (aka Anton Lavey) Satanic Bible seemed a litle LRH- and Crowley-inspired.

THEETIE WEETIES
TIJUANA, MEXICO An exciting new breakthrough in the area of human potential has recently been reported from this Mexican border town. Professor Manuel Arriba, a biologist formerly of Saguaro University, has developed an exciting new breakfast cereal that promises to answer the prayers of millions.
Preliminary tests show that there are virtually no abilities, metaphysical or otherwise, that this cereal cannot bestow, including: out-of-body travel at will with 20/20 vision; knowledge of all past lives of self and others; IQ levels exceeding 1,000; artistic talent rivaling all the great masters; the wisdom of all the sages who ever lived; super sex appeal, charisma and public speaking ability; financial acumen; x-ray vision; ability to keep British sports cars running for days at a time; and more.
"It's really unbelievable," says Arriba. "We have people levitating all over the place. Vehicles will soon be obsolete."
The cereal is called Theetie Weeties, and reportedly works on everyone, but works best on people from California, for some reason. “For a thou feel like a mill!” boasts the photo of the smiling senorita on the box, lifting up the back of a truck with one hand.
The (secret) active ingredient is rumored to be highly illegal in the United States, requiring a pilgrimage to Tijuana. But that hasn't stopped Wanna Feelgood of Malibu, California and hundreds like her: “I was into everything, EST, Yoga, TM, I even tried cannibalism. This is the best thing that has ever happened to me!"
Those wishing to explore this new avenue of spiritual growth can write to:
Theeties Weeties, Box 3333, Tijuana, BC, MEXICO

 

[TomKat]

I have absolutely no problem with people claiming to have had some kind of paranormal experiences. I've had some experiences myself.

What I strongly object to is any claims of "OT abilities". That's Scientology propaganda and it is bullshit. Scientology does not in any way produce any "OT powers" or "OT abilities". It never has and it never will.

You're mostly right about that, but people such as Ingo Swann and Pat Price discovered their natural abilities, probably just suppressed, doing Scientology

 

[strativarius]

Duplicate.

 

[strativarius]

THEETIE WEETIES
TIJUANA, MEXICO An exciting new breakthrough in the area of human potential has recently been reported from this Mexican border town. Professor Manuel Arriba, a biologist formerly of Saguaro University, has developed an exciting new breakfast cereal that promises to answer the prayers of millions.
Preliminary tests show that there are virtually no abilities, metaphysical or otherwise, that this cereal cannot bestow, including: out-of-body travel at will with 20/20 vision; knowledge of all past lives of self and others; IQ levels exceeding 1,000; artistic talent rivaling all the great masters; the wisdom of all the sages who ever lived; super sex appeal, charisma and public speaking ability; financial acumen; x-ray vision; ability to keep British sports cars running for days at a time; and more.
"It's really unbelievable," says Arriba. "We have people levitating all over the place. Vehicles will soon be obsolete."
The cereal is called Theetie Weeties, and reportedly works on everyone, but works best on people from California, for some reason. “For a thou feel like a mill!” boasts the photo of the smiling senorita on the box, lifting up the back of a truck with one hand.
The (secret) active ingredient is rumored to be highly illegal in the United States, requiring a pilgrimage to Tijuana. But that hasn't stopped Wanna Feelgood of Malibu, California and hundreds like her: “I was into everything, EST, Yoga, TM, I even tried cannibalism. This is the best thing that has ever happened to me!"
Those wishing to explore this new avenue of spiritual growth can write to:
Theeties Weeties, Box 3333, Tijuana, BC, MEXICO

I'd love to know what you do for a living. I'd be willing to bet that writing has got something to do with it.

 

[TomKat]

MDMA? You mean the drug "ecstasy"?

Where are you getting this information?

Don't rightly remember... Alan Wright? Not for sure.
Your tone is pretty pompous by the way. I don't really like giving information to know-it-all's.

 

[Veda]

You're mostly right about that, but people such as Ingo Swann and Pat Price discovered their natural abilities, probably just suppressed, doing Scientology

You're mostly right about that, but people such as Ingo Swann and Pat Price discovered their natural abilities, probably just suppressed, doing Scientology

Outside of the Scientology bubble - outside of Scientology orgs, promo and literature - can anyone locate an account by Ingo Swann where he credits Scientology for the return of his natural paranormal abilities?

Swann studied many subjects having to do with the paranormal, etc., and he discusses them, except Scientology, or so it seems.

I've definitely not examined all of his writings, or listened to all of his available recorded lectures, where he - possibly - was questioned, maybe, about Scientology? But I've never come across it.

Doesn't it seem odd that there's one version of Ingo Swann when he was in Scientology and amongst Scientologists, and another version of Ingo Swann when he's outside Scientology, a version where he never mentions Scientology?

Are any of you Scientology sympathizers at least a wee bit curious about that?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

.
Comment on Ingo Swann. . .

I find the "evidence" about his ability to exteriorize and do "remote viewing" completely unimpressive and inconclusive.

All the Advance! magazine stories about OT "powers" and anecdotal "wins" being told of OTHERS (i.e. third parties with OT miraculous powers, not the powers of the person promoting it) are simply lacking any reliable substance.

I put all this in the same category as someone having a huge "win" on jesus being murdered on the cross and coming back to life.

It's a story, an anecdote. There are thousands of possible explanations about what happened OTHER THAN a miraculous re-birth. That's how I view all the wondrous tales of exteriorization and levitation.

Personally i am quite fascinated by the possibility that such paranormal powers exist. I have spent an inordinate amount of time researching it over decades. What I learned (so far) is not consistent with breathless tales of super-human feats as told by thrilled new-age seekers. On many threads Mimsey gets very bent out of shape that I am so "negative" against all his cherished "spiritual" beliefs. It's not ME that's negative, the DATA is negative.

It's like Scientology all over again. The person who points out that clears don't have perfect memory, that OTs cannot exteriorize, that nobody has any of the powers Hubbard guaranteed when paid cash for HOMO NOVUS---it's just the truth. Scientologists react in irrational and fanatical ways. They get very very upset. WHY? Because they are insecure mofos and someone talking about facts makes them nervous, depressed and triggers an attack.

If someone could show levitation or exteriorization I would love to see it and learn all about it. The true-believers keep promoting how I need to accept the reality of it now, in advance of any proof. That is not only unreasonable, it's fully stupid and pathetic. I spend an entire lifetime becoming professional in a number of different careers, disciplines and technological, artistic and other commercial enterprises-----and I am humbled by the vast amount of information which can be learned and equally impressed by the vast volume that is fully UNKNOWN. So, I mean to say that I deeply respect learning and fact and reality---and don't have any reason to descend back down to the level of superstition, dogma and unreasoned belief that Scientologists and other new-agers chronically operate within.

All this discussion about things that nobody can ever demonstrate or prove---it's sometimes interesting but leads nowhere until someone can show it.

Imagine how ludicrous it looks to professionals when amateurs float absurd theories and then begin scolding others who don't agree. Pathetic.

 

[screamer2]

THEETIE WEETIES
TIJUANA, MEXICO An exciting new breakthrough in the area of human potential has recently been reported from this Mexican border town. Professor Manuel Arriba, a biologist formerly of Saguaro University, has developed an exciting new breakfast cereal that promises to answer the prayers of millions.
Preliminary tests show that there are virtually no abilities, metaphysical or otherwise, that this cereal cannot bestow, including: out-of-body travel at will with 20/20 vision; knowledge of all past lives of self and others; IQ levels exceeding 1,000; artistic talent rivaling all the great masters; the wisdom of all the sages who ever lived; super sex appeal, charisma and public speaking ability; financial acumen; x-ray vision; ability to keep British sports cars running for days at a time; and more.
"It's really unbelievable," says Arriba. "We have people levitating all over the place. Vehicles will soon be obsolete."
The cereal is called Theetie Weeties, and reportedly works on everyone, but works best on people from California, for some reason. “For a thou feel like a mill!” boasts the photo of the smiling senorita on the box, lifting up the back of a truck with one hand.
The (secret) active ingredient is rumored to be highly illegal in the United States, requiring a pilgrimage to Tijuana. But that hasn't stopped Wanna Feelgood of Malibu, California and hundreds like her: “I was into everything, EST, Yoga, TM, I even tried cannibalism. This is the best thing that has ever happened to me!"
Those wishing to explore this new avenue of spiritual growth can write to:
Theeties Weeties, Box 3333, Tijuana, BC, MEXICO

"ability to keep British sports cars running for days at a time"

That right there would be enough to convince me that OT is a real item. IF IT WERE TRUE.

 

[DagwoodGum]

.
Comment on Ingo Swann. . .

I find the "evidence" about his ability to exteriorize and do "remote viewing" completely unimpressive and inconclusive.

All the Advance! magazine stories about OT "powers" and anecdotal "wins" being told of OTHERS i.e. third parties with OT miraculous powers, not the powers of the person promoting it) are simply lacking any reliable substance.

I put all this in the same category as someone having a huge "win" on jesus being murdered on the cross and coming back to life.

It's a story, an anecdote. There are thousands of possible explanations about what happened OTHER THAN a miraculous re-birth. That's how I view all the wondrous tales of exteriorization and levitation.

Personally i am quite fascinated by the possibility that such paranormal powers exist. I have spent an inordinate amount of time researching it over decades. What I learned (so far) is not consistent with breathless tales of super-human feats as told by thrilled new-age seekers. On many threads Mimsey gets very bent out of shape that I am so "negative" against all his cherished "spiritual" beliefs. It's not ME that's negative, the DATA is negative.

It's like Scientology all over again. The person who points out that clears don't have perfect memory, that OTs cannot exteriorize, that nobody has any of the powers Hubbard guaranteed when paid cash for HOMO NOVUS---it's just the truth. Scientologists react in irrational and fanatical ways. They get very very upset. WHY? Because they are insecure mofos and someone talking about facts makes them nervous, depressed and triggers an attack.

If someone could show levitation or exteriorization I would love to see it and learn all about it. The true-believers keep promoting how I need to accept the reality of it now, in advance of any proof. That is not only unreasonable, it's fully stupid and pathetic. I spend an entire lifetime becoming professional in a number of different careers, disciplines and technological, artistic and other commercial enterprises-----and I am humbled by the vast amount of information which can be learned and equally impressed by the vast volume that is fully UNKNOWN. So, I mean to say that I deeply respect learning and fact and reality---and don't have any reason to descend back down to the level of superstition, dogma and unreasoned belief that Scientologists and other new-agers chronically operate within.

All this discussion about things that nobody can ever demonstrate or prove---it's sometimes interesting but leads nowhere until someone can show it.

Imagine how ludicrous it looks to professional when amateurs float absurd theories and then begin scolding others who don't agree. Pathetic.

As I could never duplicate my exteriorizations by any of Scientology's techniques, other than that one incident when I least expected it I would say that it proved to me not only that the majority of Ron's techniques were shit but also that when I pursued it I somehow braced myself against it and stopped it from happening.
I had earlier experiences as a young child where I'd have a sudden sensation of falling when I was in a twilight state only to see with an unfamiliar viseo, the springs of my grandparents couch.
I always wondered how that kept happening, whether something was wrong with my mind/body connection and I became frightened that it would happen when I drifted off because I never once had any forewarning.
As far as proving it, I don't see how one could as it's purely subjective.
And I don't know how to handle my body from a distance so I'd probably slam back into it if I tried to answer someone's question as to how many fingers they're holding up behind their back and it was so fleeting at those times that I remember doing it and was so long ago.
I couldn't prove it any more than you or anyone else could prove you had eggs for breakfast January 28, 1962.
How does one prove an experience that's only recorded in the mind of one person and nowhere else, your mind, mine or someone else's?
As far as the Jesus question goes, they're apples & oranges.
No one wrote of Jesus during his purported time, no one anywhere at all.
Wouldn't someone have written about him if the stories had any basis in truth at all?
You know that answer!
The writings came 50 to 300 years later by those who heard a story, from someone who heard a story... so many times over and embellished to such an extent that I find it all unbelievable. Not only that, the Muslims destroyed whatever records of it they could find during their countless invasions until Christianity was no more than a bloody stump of what it had been. Nothing to see here, folks, move along has been my perspective.
Doesn't mean I don't believe in God though, but that's not what you mentioned.
My parents forced me to go to Catechism each Saturday, not my half brothers who were my step dads own precious flesh and blood, but they wanted to halt my development into the guy that my biological father was, all of this unbeknownst to me as I didn't know this Germanic cold blooded bastard wasn't my real dad.
Lovely are the lies of those who "love you", are they not?
No small wonder that I've developed the inclination to give "conspiracy theories" at least a good listen!
But out of that came one good thing and that was the Saturday afternoon I had to give up to create the illusion that I was going to be a Catholic when the priest came out and blurted "75% of what is written in the bible never really happened but was written for moral purposes".
No statement was ever made to me that was nearly so liberating as that one, I can't begin to tell you!
So there could be no evidence in either case and that's all they really share in common.