Is it still slavery if you agreed?

[Human Again]

If you have the time and inclination, please help me to fill in this list.

Insufficient pay to be able to clothe yourelf decently.

Punishment for actions that are NOT violations of the law of the land.

Enforced conditions.

Withholding of travel documents.

Postings that disable your marriage/family.

No right to contact anyone outside of the group.

Enforced confessions.

Insufficiant pay to be independant, so you can leave.

A billion year contract that cannot be rescinded.

A 2.5 or 5 year contract that includes NO training unless signed for as a liability.

Thorough removal of ALL outside contacts, including family, news services, social support, legal support.

False "certification" that is recognised nowhere else.

Permission required to marry, begin a relationship or procreate.

Permission always denied for procreation.

Anti-group thoughts labelled as "dissafection", "the enemy line', Black PR".

Questioning upper management is punishable.

Televisions are banned, newspapers are only for OSA.

more?

 

[freethinker]

Yes

 

[Panda Termint]

Any errors/mistakes/misapplications are YOUR errors/mistakes/misapplications.

 

[Infinite]

Ritualised reinforcement of thinking techniques which cripple cognitive reasoning

 

[nozeno]

Distinction without a difference.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Slavery or slave like conditions are still slavery whether the person agrees to it or not. A mutual agreement between two people does not trump the law.

The first slaves in America were quakers who came here as indentured servants in Pennsylvania.

The quakers then became the first abolishonists because of their experience as indentured servants.

Indentured servants are unconstitutional in America. The key word being servant, which distinguishes it from a mere contracted agent.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[thetanic]

How many ex-SO here got real informed consent beforehand about the real working conditions they experienced in the SO?

How many wanted to leave when they found them out?

How long did it take you to leave after that point?

 

[degraded being]

Not allowed to leave.

(Specific illegal requirements include: demands to recruit someone/replace yourself before you are allowed to leave after a 2.5 or 5 year contract has expired).

Are more specific aspects of each point going to be included in the main list? For example, on contact with others: Confiscation of cell phones, inspection of personal and official letters in and out.
There is also: being ordered to divorce spouse.
Time: Insufficient time for personal hygeine (showering washing clothes etc).
Insufficient time for personal basic human needs such as outdoor activity, socializing
in the community.
Restricted or no time with family.

Not allowed to have children. (Is this spelled out when the billion year contract is signed?).

Restriction of proper health/dental care; denial of basic health needs (medication).
Sleep deprivation.

 

[uniquemand]

If you agreed, and expected to get something out of it in return, then I'd qualify it as indentured servitude or serfdom. However, since they don't deliver what is promised, I'd say it is also fraud.

 

[GoNuclear]

Exactly!

If you agreed, and expected to get something out of it in return, then I'd qualify it as indentured servitude or serfdom. However, since they don't deliver what is promised, I'd say it is also fraud.

Exactly right! The issue is one of fraud more than anything else. As far as the rest, even if they did live up to their end of the bargain, it would still be a shitty deal, but people sign on to shitty deals every day of the week, that is their right.

One of the inalienable rights of a human being is an unlimited right to contract. People get into trouble with the free exercise of that right more so than anything else. The biggest fraudster on the planet when it comes to agreements is government, and people enter into agreements with government all the time. You are never briefed face to face on rights waived upon entering into such agreements. Some of these include birth registration, auto registration, firearms registration, driver's licenses, social security cards, hunting licenses, voter registration, etc. There are plenty of people who have found themselves in court screaming about their Constitutional protections, only to have the judge threaten to cite them for contempt of court. When the judge does that, he is legally correct, because he is taking notice that an agreement is in effect, and that is at issue, NOT any rights guaranteed via the Constitution.

Anyways ... back to Scientology ... even though conditions suck, even though they offer a shit4deal for staff, even though they have people sign papers ... none of that shit is enforceable in any court. With the possible exception of the int base, mainly all it takes is a firm decision to simply walk away from all of that, damn the consequences, just walk and start anew. Unfortunately, Cof$ is the past master of getting their staff into the mindset that they have to ask for permission to do that, and that is when they get into hassles trying to leave. There are plenty who have simply blown and stayed that way.

Pete

 

[degraded being]

It is probably not *only* one or the other.
Indentured serfdom may be the right term for some, and slavery may the term for some others.
For those in the RPF and the RPF's RPf slavery might be the right term for them. It might cross the line to slavery sometimes in the local orgs when people have to do all nighters, sleep at the org etc.

When passports are witheld, that may be a deciding point between indentured serfdom and slavery.
When people have been gotten into the counrty illegally and they are scared to go to the auhorities in case they are thrown into jail, then that puts them into a position of becoming a slave.

 

[AnonyMary]

Slavery or slave like conditions are still slavery whether the person agrees to it or not. A mutual agreement between two people does not trump the law.

The first slaves in America were quakers who came here as indentured servants in Pennsylvania.

The quakers then became the first abolishonists because of their experience as indentured servants.

Indentured servants are unconstitutional in America. The key word being servant, which distinguishes it from a mere contracted agent.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Yes, I agree.

For the list:
Human emotions and reactions are penalized and frowned upon.

 

[GoNuclear]

getting a passport back

It is probably not *only* one or the other.
Indentured serfdom may be the right term for some, and slavery may the term for some others.
For those in the RPF and the RPF's RPf slavery might be the right term for them. It might cross the line to slavery sometimes in the local orgs when people have to do all nighters, sleep at the org etc.

When passports are witheld, that may be a deciding point between indentured serfdom and slavery.
When people have been gotten into the counrty illegally and that prevents they are scared to go to the auhorities in case they are thrown into jail, then that puts them into a position of becoming a slave.

The passport withholding, in actual practice, is a ghost chain. If a sea ogre is from, say, South Africa or some other country, here on some sort of visa, and needs a passport, and the passports are locked up ... if the sea ogre leaves and comes back with even a local oinkster to retrieve the passport, they will produce the passport immediately. It will be handed back with an alibi that it was only being kept for safekeeping so as not to have it lost or stolen, and that Suzie SeaOgre could have simply asked for it and it would have been handed right back to her. That is the story that would be told to the oinkster. Period. Otherwise, if Suzie SeaOgre simply went to her consulate, another one would be gotten for her, and perhaps even airfare back to her home country.

Pete

 

[The Great Zorg]

'make it go right'

Mental and emotional manipulation to the point where the individual assumes that any failure to produce an action or product is their fault, regardless of the situation or circumstances. Then the cult use the 'save-the-planet candy-coating on this mental straight jacket clasp by approving almost ANY action to produce the result or product. This 'make-it-go-right' thinking is then reinforced by reminding the indoctrinate that he or she must bypass the laws, customs and morals of the human race to save the human race from itself.

Fucking head fuck fuckers!

 

[Arthur Dent]

Mental and emotional manipulation to the point where the individual assumes that any failure to produce an action or product is their fault, regardless of the situation or circumstances. Then the cult use the 'save-the-planet candy-coating on this mental straight jacket clasp by approving almost ANY action to produce the result or product. This 'make-it-go-right' thinking is then reinforced by reminding the indoctrinate that he or she must bypass the laws, customs and morals of the human race to save the human race from itself.

Fucking head fuck fuckers!

Yes, indeed. And how about sea org members being made to sign a waiver saying they volunteer to be rehabilitated in the RPF? Just a bit of a major mind-fuck, I'd say.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Yes, it is.

Another thing is, when a person is recruited for staff, he or she is NOT told that all this stuff will happen. And once they have ya there, the honeymoon period ends and the invasive crap begins.

I'm not saying that the way staff contracts are set up to begin with are good- but the reality of what it's like on staff is even worse than what's written.

 

[anonomog]

It is slavery.

From the accounts I have read, most simply wanted to improve their lives and the lives of others. Even if they knew it was going to be rough, even very rough, I don't believe any SO member signed up to have their life, soul and dignity stripped from them.
Its false representation, fraud.

As an outsider, I don't believe any Sea Orger/Staff member should for one minute believe that they willingly enslaved themselves. this is not a cross they should carry, or even consider carrying.

In the civilised world people should not be abused financially, emotionally or spiritually; imprisoned, or have their babies murdered because of unintentionally misplaced humanitarianism or hopeful naivety.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Yes it is slavery.

"Servants" get paid a decent wage and also get time off.

 

[Human Again]

Thanks guys, and please anyone else who has some send more. I'm only at early stages of cleaning up my thinking on this aspect of my early life and your thoughts help.

It is probably not *only* one or the other.
When people have been gotten into the counrty illegally and they are scared to go to the auhorities in case they are thrown into jail, then that puts them into a position of becoming a slave.

Human emotions and reactions are penalized and frowned upon.

"Make it go right! Mental and emotional manipulation to the point where the individual assumes that any failure to produce an action or product is their fault, regardless of the situation or circumstances.

Another thing is, when a person is recruited for staff, he or she is NOT told that all this stuff will happen.

It is slavery.

From the accounts I have read, most simply wanted to improve their lives and the lives of others. Even if they knew it was going to be rough, even very rough, I don't believe any SO member signed up to have their life, soul and dignity stripped from them.

As an outsider, I don't believe any Sea Orger/Staff member should for one minute believe that they willingly enslaved themselves. this is not a cross they should carry, or even consider carrying.
In the civilised world people should not be abused financially, emotionally or spiritually; imprisoned, or have their babies murdered because of unintentionally misplaced humanitarianism or hopeful naivety.

Thank you for saying this.


Although it's quite dramatic, and a little unreal, perhaps it doesn't look as clear as say the sex trade slavery, I do think Scientology is guilty of slavery. I think it is the funamental cost saving that allows the COS to amass such wealth and also keep the workers pliable. When someone has an incredibly low value placed on their effort, by dollar rate, it seems that the insidious leak of self-esteem , right to hold an opinion etc begins.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

Human Again:

Even a spell in jail (even Gitmo) gives you three meals a day, an 8 * 10 cell all to yourself and a decent bunk, and if you're pretty enough you can find a boy-friend named "Bubba".