Is man even a spiritual being?

[Winston Smith]

I have not read any of this thread other than the last two replies above. Given that there are as many opinions about this as there are peeps, I will give my opinion. Being a musician, one who has had some incomparable experiences playing I would say that man is quite spiritual.

It is almost impossible for me to express the feeling of playing Brahms, Schubert, Bach, Beethoven and dozens of other now quite spiritual composers. What they have left the world is ephemeral. I recently wondered out loud whether Schubert knew what he was leaving the world with his string quintet, Op 163, C Major. To play or hear it is to be in the very grasp of heaven. Many of my colleagues think it is the greatest piece of chamber music ever written. Bet he didn't know that, bet he didn't even imagine the impact it would have.

As long as memory exists there is spirituality. With the arts, the artist is privilaged to leave his/her mark on the world long long after departure from it.

 

[programmer_guy]

In my first couple of years in Scientology I experienced several "OT" /spiritual phenomena.

Please tells us about these experiences in detail. Or do you not remember?

Each person as they progress upward spiritually will experience phenomena that will eventually lead them to know for certain.

This is called indoctrination into a mind control cult.

You certainly know when you go exterior, but even then it may be so far out of your reality level that you do not retain the certainty for long.

Please describe your experiences in "going exterior".

Just being in the presence of a great spiritual leader has brought many people up to a high certainty.

Just being in the presence of a mind control cult leader has brought many people into states of delusion.
Some never ever recover from it.
This is so sad.

 

[degraded being]

Need another Ven so I can coordinate and assimilate:

Pierre
That wife of his
Mark Baker
Aida
Terril
Morbidly Obese
Drinking
The new website that Lulu Belle provided a link to
Pierre's wife's inner thoughts on how her attack is going

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I have been a Scientologist for over 35 years and have some insight in this area. In the beginning I was very curious and wanted to observe spiritual phenomena. In my first couple of years in Scientology I experienced several "OT" /spiritual phenomena. Strangely I found it hard to even remember them in the beginning. I found this very puzzling. As I grew to understand innately the concept of A.R.C. it became clear to me that they weren't quite in my reality level. LRH describes this in the awareness levels, "communication, perception, orientation, UNDERSTANDINGS,..." It took quite a few "understandings" to bring me up to where I could easily remember phenomena after I experienced them. I also observed in a friend of mine that forcing someone to see an "OT phenomena" would result in their not being able to remember it. You can get them to remember it afterward with careful direction, but if it is out of their reality they will quickly forget it. So I can say that I know we are spiritual beings with certainty as I have had enough experience to gain enough "understandings" to be certain. Each person as they progress upward spiritually will experience phenomena that will eventually lead them to know for certain. You certainly know when you go exterior, but even then it may be so far out of your reality level that you do not retain the certainty for long. Just being in the presence of a great spiritual leader has brought many people up to a high certainty. Unfortunately when not in their presence they often fall back to a lower level. Good processing can bring you up to a point where you can retain your ability to exteriorize at any time. Your certainty level would be very, very great then. There are always going to be detractors that don't believe what they see. When you understand ARC it is obvious why.

Cheers,

LZ

well what you have is 36 years experience in being duped. Now that may have given you some "insight" into the whole victim experience but it does not give you much in the way of useful information in other areas.

Seriously, anyone who claims that ARC is anything other than Hubbard's mishmash and a concept that,upon examination, actually falls apart as totally ludicrous, has some issues in comprehension.

 

[Leafy]

As a technical detail about the expanding universe: distant galaxies may eventually recede out of sight, but the hundred-billion-odd stars in our own galaxy will remain pretty much as they are, being held together by their own collective gravity. We will never end up alone in a black sky. Or at least, we won't get that way because of cosmic expansion. Once stars have fused up all the light elements, they'll burn out and no new ones will form. That will turn out the lights.

Speaking as a physicist, it has always seemed absurd to me to say we are not spiritual beings because we are 'nothing but molecules'. That's like saying you're not rich because you have nothing more than truckloads of diamonds. Molecules are amazingly complex things. To really understand even a simple molecule requires conceiving simultaneous alternatives in spaces of many more than three dimensions.

To me, there is exactly one intelligent response to being told that you are a piece of meat: "That must be some piece of meat." Well, it is.

The question of what we're made of is a minor one. We're made of matter; okay. So what? Whatever we're made of, we are what we are. That's not in doubt. The question is how we work. Answering it won't limit what we are, any more than finding out how your car works suddenly stops it from working.

None of this is in disagreement with what I said. (Unless you think "spirit" is something separate...) Call us "spiritual beings" or molecules, it's all the same thing the words are pointing to. Simply being "meat" does not in any way negate the complexity of human consciousness and experience. I don't usually use the term meat to describe human beings, but whatever, that meat is the machinery that produces consciousness and the sense of self and renders sensory input into a seamless and complex virtual world via cerebral cortices.

Just because it's reducible to physics and chemistry does not make it less beautiful or sophisticated or a million kinds of brilliant. It's only the delusion of agency of self, or to go further backward, of a separate soul, that can't accept "meat" as an explanation. A sad little ego yearning for something that doesn't exist. Unnecessary suffering.

We are life living itself. Humans experience, fret, ponder, love, question, and rage, all without needing a little being behind the consciousness.

Call it meat, call it life, call it spirit, doesn't change anything except that "spirit" is so fuzzy a word that perhaps it can delude some into thinking there is some mysterious "more" to our existence and that "more" must be what gives existence meaning and if we can just figure it out, then the world will be what we want it to be.

What is absurd to me is the idea that this amazing, beautiful, harsh, unpredictable singularity of consciousness we each experience, this existence that is indeed "made of" matter and space, must be magical or mystical to be true or to be acceptable.

"is this not enough? this blessed sip of life, is it not enough?"

The beauty and mystery of human life is that we perceive at all. That is the one true thing we all have in common, perception, consciousness, this moment of here and now of awareness that rides on finite hardware. It's not that it's magical; it's just true.

Thank you, Student.

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

You're being optomistic. You don't know the universe will go on forever, it is the current accepted hypothesis that it will because we have considerable evidence we live in a flat universe.

Compared to the span of any of the previous 'civilizations' that have existed on the earth, along with our own (or even the 'life' of the planet itself) I think we can safely call the Universe 'infinite' in a mathematical sense. Certainly the time between Start and End exceeds our limited comprehension. And I'm used to dealing with numbers in length that far exceed those fictitious dates that lrh created.

 

[Clarence Rockaway]

I have not read any of this thread other than the last two replies above. Given that there are as many opinions about this as there are peeps, I will give my opinion. Being a musician, one who has had some incomparable experiences playing I would say that man is quite spiritual.

It is almost impossible for me to express the feeling of playing Brahms, Schubert, Bach, Beethoven and dozens of other now quite spiritual composers. What they have left the world is ephemeral. I recently wondered out loud whether Schubert knew what he was leaving the world with his string quintet, Op 163, C Major. To play or hear it is to be in the very grasp of heaven. Many of my colleagues think it is the greatest piece of chamber music ever written. Bet he didn't know that, bet he didn't even imagine the impact it would have.

As long as memory exists there is spirituality. With the arts, the artist is privilaged to leave his/her mark on the world long long after departure from it.

A man was walking through the cemetery in Vienna where most of the immortals of classical music are buried. Suddenly he heard musical notes coming from out of the ether. As he listened he realized the notes were Beethoven's 5th Symphony, only BACKWARDS. He asked the caretaker who happened to be walking past. "What's that music? It sounds like Beethoven's 5th, only backwards.
"Oh," replied the caretaker. "that's just Beethoven decomposing."

 

[Peter Soderqvist]

No, we are just a bunch of chemicals. Just molecules interacting with each other.

Life has no significance. The universe will carry on regardless of whether there is life in it or not.

Soderqist1: Life has more significance than you think!
These Interacting molecules are part of the universe, it follows that some part of the universe know that it exist, just as the brain knows that the rest of the body exist, but the rest of the body doesn’t know that he brain exist, yet the whole body is self-aware as a human, and this is not just from the top off my head, I give credit to John D. Barrow; The Universe that Discovered itself!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Barrow

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Soderqist1: Life has more significance than you think!
These Interacting molecules are part of the universe, it follows that some part of the universe know that it exist, just as the brain knows that the rest of the body exist, but the rest of the body doesn’t know that he brain exist, yet the whole body is self-aware as a human, and this is not just from the top off my head, I give credit to John D. Barrow; The Universe that Discovered itself!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Barrow

Harh! - That's a very intriquing idea! - Possibly the most elegant 'persuasive argument' for the existence of God that I ever heard!

 

[RogerB]

I have not read any of this thread other than the last two replies above. Given that there are as many opinions about this as there are peeps, I will give my opinion. Being a musician, one who has had some incomparable experiences playing I would say that man is quite spiritual.

It is almost impossible for me to express the feeling of playing Brahms, Schubert, Bach, Beethoven and dozens of other now quite spiritual composers. What they have left the world is ephemeral. I recently wondered out loud whether Schubert knew what he was leaving the world with his string quintet, Op 163, C Major. To play or hear it is to be in the very grasp of heaven. Many of my colleagues think it is the greatest piece of chamber music ever written. Bet he didn't know that, bet he didn't even imagine the impact it would have.

As long as memory exists there is spirituality. With the arts, the artist is privilaged to leave his/her mark on the world long long after departure from it.

Wow! Winston,

I was not particularly familiar with the Schubert piece you cited, so did a Google and heard two renditions of it.

Currently listening to the Adagio . . . it's totally ethereal! Of course the better instruments and players in this version helps

I did violin for a while when young, though nowadays I prefer the sound of the viola. Which of the fiddles was yours?

Rog

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Emphasis mine

I have been a Scientologist for over 35 years and have some insight in this area. In the beginning I was very curious and wanted to observe spiritual phenomena. In my first couple of years in Scientology I experienced several "OT" /spiritual phenomena. Strangely I found it hard to even remember them in the beginning. I found this very puzzling. As I grew to understand innately the concept of A.R.C. it became clear to me that they weren't quite in my reality level. LRH describes this in the awareness levels, "communication, perception, orientation, UNDERSTANDINGS,..." It took quite a few "understandings" to bring me up to where I could easily remember phenomena after I experienced them. I also observed in a friend of mine that forcing someone to see an "OT phenomena" would result in their not being able to remember it. You can get them to remember it afterward with careful direction, but if it is out of their reality they will quickly forget it. So I can say that I know we are spiritual beings with certainty as I have had enough experience to gain enough "understandings" to be certain. Each person as they progress upward spiritually will experience phenomena that will eventually lead them to know for certain. You certainly know when you go exterior, but even then it may be so far out of your reality level that you do not retain the certainty for long. Just being in the presence of a great spiritual leader has brought many people up to a high certainty. Unfortunately when not in their presence they often fall back to a lower level. Good processing can bring you up to a point where you can retain your ability to exteriorize at any time. Your certainty level would be very, very great then. There are always going to bey detractors that don't believe what they see. When you understand ARC it is obvious why.

Cheers,

LZ

You er, have the cultic certainty thingy working well for you, enjoy it while you still have it!


Welcome to ESMB.

​

 

[TEoS]

Is man even a spiritual being?

No.

 

[AnonKat]

No.

Yes

[video=youtube;LOxlZm2AU4o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOxlZm2AU4o[/video]

[video=youtube;fD1512_XJEw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD1512_XJEw[/video]

 

[AnonKat]

I'm not heavily opinionated on this right now, which is remarkable given my 26 years in Scientology, but I have been wondering and unfortunately the conclusion that I've come to is that I spent 26 years following a guru that didn't know nearly as much as he claimed and thus my basis of "wisdom", following him, was fatally flawed.

Now I'm in the normal but uncomfortable position where I just don't know the answers.

There are several things, a hatfull I guess, that I still accept from Scientology. One was the concept of SURVIVE. Man, and all life seeks to survive. Seems true to me.

Man also has a really big brain and an incredible gift for creative imagination.

So now I'm buggered. What if all our glorious history of religion and spiritual belief was no more than a product from a lucky combination of man's desire to survive coupled with his keen creative imagination?

I've sought the *truth* as a teenager and that led me to Scientology which sadly for me and my quest was no better than any other belief, ology or ism.

It failed so profoundly when it came to the acid test that it simply disproves itself on too many fronts to count.

Either we are the product of protoplasm or the truth of our spiritual nature will be beyond us while we languish on this physical plane. Something that will be revealed when we leave this playing field.

Now what I suspect is that if real at all then all religion and spiritualism can only be a matter of subjective truth and that definitely includes Scientology, only the Scientologist refers to their faith as "certainty" and "knowingness".

I'm sure I'm not the only ex musing over this at this time, so I was keen to see what other viewpoints were among my friends here on this subject.

(Not to be confused with Spiritualism.)

Spirituality

Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual's inner life; spiritual experience includes that of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life.[4] It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.

Pick one lol

 

[guanoloco]

Please give me some URLs. I would like to read them. Okay?

Ditto

OK, fellas, I'll put down some pros and cons to some of this and try to keep it balanced and brief.

Scientists Think Consciousness is Separate from the Brain

DISCOVER Mind & Brain Soul Search

The man with almost no brain

And

People Have NDEs While Brain Dead

Pam Reynolds

A Critique of Susan Blackmore's Dying to Live and her Dying Brain Hypothesis

Self-Awareness Is Only a Function of the Brain


Near Death Experience Research Foundation

International Association of Near Death Studies

Recently there have been some History/Discovery/Science documentaries covering this topic and Dr Peter Fenwick frequently makes appearances.

Does The Body Have A Soul? Near Death Experience Researcher Says Yes

He's been studying these things for 30 years or so and has apparently set up objects within his hospital(s) that are not visible unless viewing from the ceiling and such. These experiments have convinced him that the phenomena is factual (being consciously separate from the brain).

Here's a forum discussing him, note his credentials - when this guy says the patient is brain dead I believe it.

Here's a documentary that he's in - I may or may not have witnessed this one but the one I would really like to have is the one recently that had the congenital blind guy - with deformed eyes - having vision for the first time ever during his NDE. The Day I Died...it's possible it's in this documentary. Also relevant would be the NDE researcher who has a device randomly showing words to see if any NDEs see it - as of the airing, no one had.

People Born Blind Can See During a NDE

Is the Brain Really Necessary? Although this one is all over they're mirrored so I suspect this as to its validity with vague specifics and all that.

Then there's this: Tiny brain no obstacle to French civil servant

Both of those were gradual onset so now here's one from abrupt trauma:

Ahad Israfil

Much of this is "new agey" but what do you expect? I tried to find objective material as much as possible. The research IS valid, IMHO, if not mainstream or widely circulated.

This is a theory to physically explain OBE/NDE Out of Body Experiences and the Angular Gyrus of the Brain

A New Theory of PSI (somewhat related and an attempt to explain phenomena physically)

Consciousness and the New Physics


Here's a drug that apparently induces the exact phenomena of NDE

Are NDEs Hallucinations?

Arrogant Atheist forum denouncing Peter Fenwick

Argument against consciousness separate from materialistic brain

There's many, many theories opposing much of this but we all know those arguments. Is any of this conclusive either way? No, most resoundingly.

 

[Leafy]

Guanoloco, you might be interested in the book The Ego Tunnel by Thomas Metzinger. His studies of consciousness and sense of self include a look at OBEs.

 

[guanoloco]

Guanoloco, you might be interested in the book The Ego Tunnel by Thomas Metzinger. His studies of consciousness and sense of self include a look at OBEs.

Thanks for this, Leafy, I've got such a hefty list I'm wading through at present.

It looks very interesting...what's Vinaire say. "Shiva - destroyer of illusion" or some such?

 

[Thrak]

I was reading about Tinnitus since I've been having a problem with that. One of the things I found interesting was a new theory and new research that showed how there are certain cells near the cochlea that are nerve like but not quite nerves. The theory is that when a chemical is present they produce nerve like activity so that the part of the brain that receives sound impulses can start "practicing" or learning how to deal with these impulses before the ear can actually produce any of it's own impulses.

To me it's like the body is like a universe of it's own with all these cells which may even be individual beings themselves in some aspect, creating a much larger thing that they have no awareness of. And we as that much larger being have an extremely limited understanding of all the work that these cells are performing to allow us to experience life as we do.

In any case even though life does seem largely mechanical, I find it so complex and simply wild that I struggle with the idea that it could have just invented itself by accident. When you look at all of the perfect coincidences that had to happen for us to be here as well as have a planet to be on and a universe to be in it just seems impossible that it was just a bunch of perfect coincidences. I like to think that by believing in a universe occurring by accident and life creating itself, you are in fact believing in miracles and immaculate conception.

And for life itself even though it is composed of matter as far as we can see it seems to be trying very hard to survive and to get a foothold anywhere it can. It's obsession with survival is something truly un-material. Matter just doesn't act like that. Matter doesn't care what happens to it.

 

[VaD]

Seems nobody knows for certain.

One who claims he knows (guru) is to be cast aside.


- Nothing new has come with that "new age" that wasn't known before.

 

[programmer_guy]

OK, fellas, I'll put down some pros and cons to some of this and try to keep it balanced and brief.

Scientists Think Consciousness is Separate from the Brain

Thanks. That's a lot to go over
I'll examine it bit-by-bit... so, I'll take the 1st link and examine it (Did you read it? The link to the Discover Magazine article June 12, 2007 contradicts your position, unless I misunderstand you)

Again, the question comes back to the definition of evidence. Greyson attempted to document an NDE by programming a laptop computer with simple colored images (an airplane, a sailboat, a butterfly, a flower, a kite), one of which was displayed on the computer screen at random. He placed the laptop on top of a monitor about 10 feet off the floor of an operating room, beyond the view of patients undergoing heart surgery. In this operation, doctors induced cardiac arrest in the patient. If any of the patients had been able to escape their bodies and observe the room from above, they would have been able to see the computer screen and describe it later.

Greyson ran his experiment on 50 patients, but not one of them reported having an NDE. On the other hand, most denied that they had ever been unconscious at all. “One of the factors involved is that, before their cardiac arrest was induced, these patients were all given medication that inhibited them from forming memories of the procedure,” Greyson says. “We under­estimated how complete the drug-induced memory inhibition would be.”

The "drug-induced memory inhibition" suggests to me that it is all organic to begin with.

The question is, what causes out-of-body experiences? Olaf Blanke, a neuroscientist at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, actually induced an OBE in a patient by stimulating the temporal-parietal junction (a part of the brain important in body orientation). “Each time we stimulated that area, the patient, who had never had an out-of-body experience before, experienced one,” he says.

And this is what I have been saying all along... it is brain activity.
(And this is just from my reading the one mag article from your 1st link.)
I'll read more later.

Thanks for the response.