Is Scientology a science?

[Purple Rain]

Heaven help me, my alter personality must be huffing the acetone again.

I could have sworn this thread included underpants, a post from someone who stole nukes and another one from Aleister Crowley and tinfoil hats.

Don't worry I'll be okay in the morning.

Yes, indeed! The age old existential question (whatever that is) is not, "Who am I?" but "Who am I today?"

My parents had this book and it always fascinated me. I'd sit there and stare at the cover wondering if I'd rather be Eve White or Eve Black or Jane. And I loved Joanne Woodward probably because I spent so long gazing at her face.

Edit: Also, can there possibly be a better name in the world than Corbett H. Thigpen?! I love it!!

 

[F.Bullbait]

Heaven help me, my alter personality must be huffing the acetone again.

I could have sworn this thread included underpants, a post from someone who stole nukes and another one from Aleister Crowley and tinfoil hats.

Don't worry I'll be okay in the morning.

Is Scientology a science?

Is this a thread?

Does the pope shit in the woods?

Is the bear catholic?

It's all too deep for me.

 

[Purple Rain]

See? That's how advancing technology changes the world. The original question was probably: "How can we transmit soup with our Jungle Drums?"

One day they'll just break out the replicator and do the whole "Tea. Earl Grey. Hot" thing.

[video=youtube;Jm-upHSP9KU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-upHSP9KU[/video]

 

[anonomog]

Yes, indeed! The age old existential question (whatever that is) is not, "Who am I?" but "Who am I today?"

<snippety>

Edit: Also, can there possibly be a better name in the world than Corbett H. Thigpen?! I love it!!

Or the old menopausal question is not "Who am I" but "Who am I this minute, and pay bloody attention because it will all change in 5 minutes."


Yeah Corbett Thigpen jumped out of the thread and hit me on the funny bone.

 

[Purple Rain]

No. when I referred to being "double crossed" by Hubbard, it's because according to what I seemed to remember in these past-life memories the agreement was between me and Hubbard. The agreement was not honored apparently. though what actually went on that lead to DM stepping in is questionable.

These "memories" were extremely disturbing at the time as I was not raised to believe in reincarnation. I was a Jehovah Witness.

I grew up in almost total isolation as far as contact with any esoteric ideas like reincarnation or out of body experiences or between life memories yet I was experiencing all these things. From early childhood as far back as I can remember (this life),

"Crowley" reincarnated into Jehovah Witness, for the same reason he incarnated into the Plymouth Brethren. His mission was to be indoctrinated into a fundamentalist type religion of the most backward sort and then extricate himself from that so as to fully understand that particular mindset and so be better able to bring enlightenment to that class of humanity.

He utterly failed. Gave up, trying to understand the Plymouth Brethren / Fundamentalist mind set so he came back as a JW. Which is similarly a kind of backward fundie religion that leads nowhere and from which it is difficult to escape. The indoctrination is so deep and thorough.

So a young Jehovah Witness is writing LRH that he recalls that he is Crowley reincarnated and he has come back. It's time to hand over the reins as agreed. Instead he (Hubbard) apparently appointed DM instead. Crowley was double crossed. An annoyance, but there were other matters to attend to. Crowley would tie up this loose end in time.

In other words, my memory of "knowing Hubbard in a past life" is a memory of a confrontation and subsequent settlement between myself (Crowley) and Hubbard. A kind of gentlemen's agreement was made between the two men.

Unfortunately Crowley's upbringing as a Jehovah Witness was almost too much for him. He doubted his own experiences. Nearly forgot who he was. Was struggling with doubt and indecision. So he was writing to Hubbard for "Help" in clarifying his memories. He doubted his own sanity, but had notebooks full of "memories" he could not believe were real and had no other way of confirming or denying than to write to someone who was "in" these memories and still alive for conformation or denial of specific events recorded in his notebook.

Everything I had written down in those notebooks was eventually confirmed. I did not read or learn that Hubbard was a member of the OTO. I REMEMBERED it, and was writing to Hubbard for confirmation of these memories.

So my original inclination is to be cynical, because a) it's easy to poke fun at, and b) so many Scientologists were Cleopatra or somebody in a past life and got so many past life details wrong if they actually broke the rules to talk about their case to you that the Crowley thing is kind of (yawn) and c) if reincarnation were true I'd have to rethink everything I have just decided I've got sort of figured out.

The next thing I think is that even if, say for argument's sake, that was true - everything you said about being Crowley, you couldn't possibly prove at this point in time that you knew about Hubbard and Crowley through past life recall before you actually read the widely available information about them on the internet.

I am wondering if there is any valid, fair way to test what you say.

But mostly I read stuff like that and I do wonder if you have a mental illness. I lived with a guy for a while who drove out to Ayer's rock looking for the place he had hidden his spaceship and wanted to dig up two small trees in my yard because he believed he had buried his timesight (yes, timesight from Mission Earth - the gadget that enabled Heller to look into the future). He believed he was Hubbard's "op term" (opposition terminal). I really liked him. He was very easy on the eye and a sweet person, but sometimes his face would darken and it would be scary.

I also have a lot of sympathy for someone growing up in a fundy Christian religion as I had that misfortune myself.

I also am horrified at how easily I could still believe something like the claims that you make. I wonder if you can ever truly take the cult out of the cultie. I find that kind of depressing. I still have no critical thinking.

 

[Tom_Booth]

AY, DIOS MIO!!!

IF this REALLY is your interest in life as a Spiritual exploration and real world practice, then please go to the authentic sources for the information...check these places out, attend some services, talk to some people, read their literature:

https://www.facebook.com/unityinharlem/info

http://findacenter.com/new-thought-usa-new-york/new-thought-new-york.htm

http://www.godasme.com/homemenu/revwillmercer.html

Or just do some research on your own on the Internet.

The book that originally lead to my conducting my first "experiment" ...[I use air quotes as I considered these experiments in a scientific sense and tried to, in my own mind, be as methodical and scientific in my approach as possible at the time, but recognize that such experiments would hardly qualify as being either "scientific" or above criticism as being "experiments" by scientific standards] ... was The Law of The Higher Potential by Robert Collier. AS I think I already mentioned.

Collier's work is considered to be or has been embraced by "New Thought":

http://www.newthoughtlibrary.com/collierRobert/

I'm not without some familiarity with the movement or its publications. Ditto Unity.

While there is little to be criticized in these movements, there is a degree of religiosity that goes slightly beyond what I would consider my limit. The language generally applied to causal phenomenon like "God" and "Prayer" tend to be misleading.

Tom, you also might want to read Ron's "affirmations", to get a better picture of where his mind was at. His brand of "creative visualization".

I've read them. I don't endorse the use of affirmations. In general they are a rather lame substitute for actual control, used by those too weak to confront their own "dark side" and so make an attempt to bury and smother their own doubts and fears by painting them over with "affirmations". What Hubbard did on his own time is his business.

Hubbard was also involved in Black Magic with his friends Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley which has been documented.

Crowley was not so much a "Black Magician" He was a "scientist" [air quotes again] who endeavored to put all varieties of spiritual practice on a scientific footing. That is to get to the bottom of what made it work. If it worked at all. In that sense the methodology of Christian Prayer is identical to the methods of Witchcraft or "Black Magic". Things like "Unity" and "New Thought" stand as an example.

Crowley practiced ritual magick but his intent was always to uncover underlying scientific principles and isolate them. You would be as likely to find him counting the rosary as sacrificing a cat. His inquiry was always 'why should any of these varied superstitious practices ever produce any sort of result whatsoever ?' .

David Miscavige however is a complete fraud and charlatan. I don't believe for one minute that he buys the bullshit that he is promoting. He does not get auditing himself and hasn't for many years. David Miscavige is only in this for the money and power and while Hubbard did in fact want money and power, I believe he sincerely believed in all of his delusions due to the earlier hypnosis he performed on himself."

As I recall, I told Hubbard, If you want to start a religion to make money, you might just as well make it the truth.

He must take full credit for Zenu and various other nonsense he couldn't resist inserting.

Anyone with half a whit could sort out what's what without much trouble.

 

[Purple Rain]

Or the old menopausal question is not "Who am I" but "Who am I this minute, and pay bloody attention because it will all change in 5 minutes."


Yeah Corbett Thigpen jumped out of the thread and hit me on the funny bone.

Or the old gravid question of "Who are you and what have you done with my wife??!!" Lol!

 

[F.Bullbait]

No. when I referred to being "double crossed" by Hubbard, it's because according to what I seemed to remember in these past-life memories the agreement was between me and Hubbard. The agreement was not honored apparently. though what actually went on that lead to DM stepping in is questionable.

These "memories" were extremely disturbing at the time as I was not raised to believe in reincarnation. I was a Jehovah Witness.

I grew up in almost total isolation as far as contact with any esoteric ideas like reincarnation or out of body experiences or between life memories yet I was experiencing all these things. From early childhood as far back as I can remember (this life),

"Crowley" reincarnated into Jehovah Witness, for the same reason he incarnated into the Plymouth Brethren. His mission was to be indoctrinated into a fundamentalist type religion of the most backward sort and then extricate himself from that so as to fully understand that particular mindset and so be better able to bring enlightenment to that class of humanity.

He utterly failed. Gave up, trying to understand the Plymouth Brethren / Fundamentalist mind set so he came back as a JW. Which is similarly a kind of backward fundie religion that leads nowhere and from which it is difficult to escape. The indoctrination is so deep and thorough.

So a young Jehovah Witness is writing LRH that he recalls that he is Crowley reincarnated and he has come back. It's time to hand over the reins as agreed. Instead he (Hubbard) apparently appointed DM instead. Crowley was double crossed. An annoyance, but there were other matters to attend to. Crowley would tie up this loose end in time.

In other words, my memory of "knowing Hubbard in a past life" is a memory of a confrontation and subsequent settlement between myself (Crowley) and Hubbard. A kind of gentlemen's agreement was made between the two men.

Unfortunately Crowley's upbringing as a Jehovah Witness was almost too much for him. He doubted his own experiences. Nearly forgot who he was. Was struggling with doubt and indecision. So he was writing to Hubbard for "Help" in clarifying his memories. He doubted his own sanity, but had notebooks full of "memories" he could not believe were real and had no other way of confirming or denying than to write to someone who was "in" these memories and still alive for conformation or denial of specific events recorded in his notebook.

Everything I had written down in those notebooks was eventually confirmed. I did not read or learn that Hubbard was a member of the OTO. I REMEMBERED it, and was writing to Hubbard for confirmation of these memories.

From the way you word this, I presume you don't take ownership of "Crowley". A fairly typical perception of past life recollections, from my experience.


I was raised in an atheistic, scientific household. It is only late in life that I realized that I don't have the subtext that most people have in this "Christian" society. I am thankful for the upbringing I had; not being weighed down by the dross of a common religion that was set in concrete at an early age. I can see how one might be tempted to change these things from the inside but I think it is a fool's errand.

I might take this opportunity to briefly bend Crowley's ear. I have been contemplating "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". I see this as the bedrock of Scientology.


The first chapter of the first book of Scientology, Advanced Procedure and Axioms states "The only thing which can actually alter self-determinism and reduce it is self-determinism itself. One can determine to be used or worked upon by the environ and its people. But until one makes a determination to do so, one is not so affected." I see this as only a more verbose version of the former maxim.

 

[Purple Rain]

The book that originally lead to my conducting my first "experiment" ...[I use air quotes as I considered these experiments in a scientific sense and tried to, in my own mind, be as methodical and scientific in my approach as possible at the time, but recognize that such experiments would hardly qualify as being either "scientific" or above criticism as being "experiments" by scientific standards] ... was The Law of The Higher Potential by Robert Collier. AS I think I already mentioned.

Collier's work is considered to be or has been embraced by "New Thought":

http://www.newthoughtlibrary.com/collierRobert/

I'm not without some familiarity with the movement or its publications. Ditto Unity.

While there is little to be criticized in these movements, there is a degree of religiosity that goes slightly beyond what I would consider my limit. The language generally applied to causal phenomenon like "God" and "Prayer" tend to be misleading.



I've read them. I don't endorse the use of affirmations. In general they are a rather lame substitute for actual control, used by those too weak to confront their own "dark side" and so make an attempt to bury and smother their own doubts and fears by painting them over with "affirmations". What Hubbard did on his own time is his business.



Crowley was not so much a "Black Magician" He was a "scientist" [air quotes again] who endeavored to put all varieties of spiritual practice on a scientific footing. That is to get to the bottom of what made it work. If it worked at all. In that sense the methodology of Christian Prayer is identical to the methods of Witchcraft or "Black Magic". Things like "Unity" and "New Thought" stand as an example.

Crowley practiced ritual magick but his intent was always to uncover underlying scientific principles and isolate them. You would be as likely to find him counting the rosary as sacrificing a cat. His inquiry was always 'why should any of these varied superstitious practices ever produce any sort of result whatsoever ?' .




As I recall, I told Hubbard, If you want to start a religion to make money, you might just as well make it the truth.

He must take full credit for Zenu and various other nonsense he couldn't resist inserting.

Anyone with half a whit could sort out what's what without much trouble.

So if you were Aleister Crowley, did you really sacrifice children?

 

[lotus]

All about $cientology is been said here!

Thank you!

 

[strativarius]

Originally Posted by Tom_Booth <snip>
No. when I referred to being "double crossed" by Hubbard, it's because according to what I seemed to remember in these past-life memories the agreement was between me and Hubbard. The agreement was not honored apparently. though what actually went on that lead to DM stepping in is questionable.<snip>

"Crowley" reincarnated into Jehovah Witness, for the same reason he incarnated into the Plymouth Brethren. His mission was to be indoctrinated into a fundamentalist type religion of the most backward sort and then extricate himself from that so as to fully understand that particular mindset and so be better able to bring enlightenment to that class of humanity.

He utterly failed. Gave up, trying to understand the Plymouth Brethren / Fundamentalist mind set so he came back as a JW. Which is similarly a kind of backward fundie religion that leads nowhere and from which it is difficult to escape. The indoctrination is so deep and thorough.

So a young Jehovah Witness is writing LRH that he recalls that he is Crowley reincarnated and he has come back. It's time to hand over the reins as agreed. Instead he (Hubbard) apparently appointed DM instead. Crowley was double crossed. An annoyance, but there were other matters to attend to. Crowley would tie up this loose end in time.

In other words, my memory of "knowing Hubbard in a past life" is a memory of a confrontation and subsequent settlement between myself (Crowley) and Hubbard. A kind of gentlemen's agreement was made between the two men.

<snip>
The next thing I think is that even if, say for argument's sake, that was true - everything you said about being Crowley, you couldn't possibly prove at this point in time that you knew about Hubbard and Crowley through past life recall before you actually read the widely available information about them on the internet.

I am wondering if there is any valid, fair way to test what you say.

But mostly I read stuff like that and I do wonder if you have a mental illness.

What she said.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

As I recall, I told Hubbard

-snip-

Are you saying that Hubbard and Crowley met?

 

[lotus]

I read half of the thread
and I feel umcomfortable

Pardon me
I'll come back


.
.

.
.
.




Now, I am all set

 

[sallydannce]

I read half of the thread
and I feel umcomfortable

I'll come back


.
.

.
.
.




Now, I am all set

Oh Lotus! Oh! Your interior design style is just magnificent! That splash of colour in the centre of the room just elevates it to something truly special. And the blue shade in the cushion covers toning in with the blue of your telex machine...just brilliant!

 

[strativarius]

I read half of the thread
and I feel umcomfortable

Pardon me
I'll come back


.
.

.
.
.




Now, I am all set

Well, that's gone right over the top of my head I'm afraid. Apart from looking something like the set of 'A Clockwork Orange', I've got no idea what it all means.

Feel free to advise me if you've got a spare moment.

Yours truly,

S**tforbrains.

 

[Jump]

I was thinking it was a simple padded cell, you know, for the crazies.

 

[R2-45]

Oh Lotus! Oh! Your interior design style is just magnificent! That splash of colour in the centre of the room just elevates it to something truly special. And the blue shade in the cushion covers toning in with the blue of your telex machine...just brilliant!

I bet that set-up would allow the telexing of soup!

 

[strativarius]

I was thinking it was a simple padded cell, you know, for the crazies.

Aaaah! I get it. The crazies! Us right?

 

[lotus]

Oh Lotus! Oh! Your interior design style is just magnificent! That splash of colour in the centre of the room just elevates it to something truly special. And the blue shade in the cushion covers toning in with the blue of your telex machine...just brilliant!

Dear Sally,

I don't know what happened to me - it's an obsession.

I designed a new clothing collection to wear when falling deep into $cientology esotheric transe.
I would be please to ship you one of this creation.

The next one is my favorite
It has been specifically designed for coming out of the shower in the week-end mornings and reading specific threads. It's very much causual and comfortable , while it remains sexy for boyfriend.

 

[sallydannce]

I bet that set-up would allow the telexing of soup!

You make a very valid point!

p.s. I won't be at the ESMB Choir practice this evening. Sing whatever ya like, I've got some re-decorating to do!