ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



Is Scientology actually EXPANDING?

Discussion in 'Other Locations' started by Vittorio, Apr 11, 2007.

  1. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Useful info, Lulu. And remember folks that it's a no-no to have the stats go down, and somewhere the number of items on the address list is important. The actual stat definition probably includes the word "valid", but that is an impossible definition to uphold.

    The result is that an industrious and conscientious Dissem person who works very hard on a crapped-out list to update it by weeding out the "Gone No Addresses" and the duplicates, would probably get taken off post for "reducing the org's mailing list". It shouldn't happen that way as it is stupid, but it tends to. Unless things have changed since I've been out.

    That US Clears number data is interesting. How it used to work was there was this ledger book kept in a filing cabinet in Certs and Awards at Saint Hill. When a new Clear was made at SH the name was written in the next line in the book, and got the next number. Blocks of maybe twenty or so were assigned to the other AOs, and they would assign the specific numbers from that block to their Clears, then send in the names to SH and the Certs and Awards person at SH would write the names in the big book. This system worked fine up until Dianetic Clear came out in 1978, when the Clear numbers were up to about 6500.

    Suddenly there were hundreds of Clears being declared as the hidden backlog got caught up. When I gave my Clear speech in the chapel at SH there were about 200 others that week. The blocks given to the other orgs got bigger to accommodate the extra numbers. Instead of a few names to write in the book each week, there were hundreds to begin with. Then in the next few months some people got undeclared, so their number was no longer valid and someone else could have it. After a while it got to be a dog's breakfast.

    It never occurred to me that the :shark: would invent the number of Clears, but since they invent the total number of members, and invent the number of DMSMH sold, and invent the number of missions, it shouldn't be at all surprising.

    Kristi Wachter's Clears page gives useful data. Her annual tallies from the official announcements in the Auditor mags of names (not numbers) starting in 1978 are 1674, 5378, 1801, 648, 1340, 397, 231, 410, 66, 262, 39, 148, 40, 45, 438, 241, 127, 163, 140, 100, 42, 67, 33, 40, 62, 162, 48 (Dec 2004). She tallies up about 15,000 Clears. There are some Auditor mags missing, but if the numbers are comparable to the surrounding ones, that would only add maybe 600, 1000 max.

    I'll see if I can find out any more data on the XSO list.

    Paul
     
  2. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat


    This is absolutely true. This is one of the problems with trying to clean up an org's list. Anyone who actually digs into the addresso and eliminates bad addresses and eliminates the dups and removes the names of people who have actually never done anything in Scientology would get declared for "cutting an org mailing list". (This is considered a suppressive act.)

    As a matter of fact, from what I recall, there is no way for a staff member to actually delete a name and address from the org addresso. You can make it as an "askoff" (person has "asked off" the mailing list) but it won't let you actually delete it.
     
  3. Steven James

    Steven James Guest

    I am going to be the kill joy in the thread. I actually believe that the Church is expanding. I was on staff until March 2006. I have seen small barely existant Orgs really grow- such as Plymouth & Birmingham for example (B'ham 60 staff). OK, so there is not hundreds of people pouring in, but there is enough public to have a busy courseroom and some auditing going on and lots of book sales.

    London Org obviously shrunk in the early 80's. Lots of declares and blows. It has rehabbed to it's previous status. It's downfall though is that there is a lot of MEST to be handled in terms of a large expensive building.

    East Grinstead and it's surrounding towns have 4,000 Scientologists easily, all with different levels of commitment. A regular, local IAS event can have as many as 800 people, no problem.

    Scientology is growing, but not with any ease and not in many long established Orgs. Scientology is flourishing in the Ukraine for example and even doing well in Venezuela. A lot of people in these countries are willing to pay and work for their services but many do not have memberships and the IAS is not a key post in these countries riddled with poverty and drug use.
     
  4. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Steven.

    No need for apologies! I am glad to hear there are places doing well.

    I wish everybody happiness and success.

    My protests are about the dark side of things, not the good side of things.

    Good news is very much appreciated, THANKS!
     
  5. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    Illusioness, forgive me if I am being simplistic or misinterpreting Magick and Crowley. I've read his biography and other things about him, but not studied his work like you have, but is not the Crowley viewpoint that there is no "dark side" nor presumably, the opposite "light side".

    Is there not just what is willed and what is not-willed?

    Are you saying happiness and success are things willed and the "dark side" are things not willed?

    Forgive me if I have it wrong and I'd love to be corrected.
     
  6. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)


    HI Steve,

    You are not being a killjoy. Well, at least as far as I am concerned. Scientology contracting or expanding isn't a source of joy or depression for me. I do like the intellectual exercise of trying to figure out what it is doing though.

    There is a phenomenon I have observed with Scientologists in general and I think it is a result of the philosophy of Scientology. Scientologists never, ever want to be seen to pass on "bad news" (you know what Hubbie said about that sort of thing...) with the primary result of that being that Scientoogists often never find out what is going on with Scientology. It is always
    expanding. If it is not doing well in the area you are in - well that's because you and your fellows are incompetent or criminal - but it must be expanding somewhere.

    It is interesting that the org you have direct experience of was/is not doing well yet "other" orgs are doing 'well'. I note that Manchester, Sunderland, Brighton and HAPI were missing from your evaluation of the UK scene - why?

    As for "there must be 4,000 Scientologists in EG" - where did that figure come from? I'm not disputing it, I am just interested in where you obtained it from.

    Back to whether Scientology is "expanding" in the UK. You mentioned that Birmingham is doing well and that Plymouth has some activity going on. But does that translate to expansion in the UK? If the other 6 orgs in the UK are contracting what are the true figures?

    Points to ponder.
     
  7. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    I am sorry but I must interject.... being in the Saint Hill Size Venezuela org for 8 months, I can say it was not as busy as it should have been, for the size. Yes, it has members, yes the courseroom packs them in.

    The HGC was doing alright, but when we were looking to recruit people for the Sea Org, little to none were Clear or OT.

    Yes, they have people doing services, yes, that is true. But not for the size of old saint hill, per the booklets and all. I would see max 100 people there per day.

    And that was SH Size Valencia org.

    An what about Caracas? It's run out of someone's house, in a residential area of the city and the people that live around it don't like that people are coming and going all the time. It looks weird to them. When I was there (twice), it was pretty empty. I did not see more than 20 people there, including the staff.
     
  8. Steven James

    Steven James Guest

    bea kiddo- 100 people, although not quite Old Saint Hill, in the world of a Scientology Org these days, is a lot of people.

    Scientology expansion from what I could see as a recent staff member was mostly based on opening up shop in new Zones.

    I would like to hear some people's experience's of Flag's OT courserooms as the number of completions is not very high for this band of the Bridge (I will post some stats next time from recent editions of Source). The highest level of course completes stems from Pro TR's.

    Hello Mick, your right, I did not mention those other Orgs. Sunderland as you may well know is pretty dead. The other Orgs do a bit better. Birmingham was the UK's top Org for 2005- having a former bin man (I think) return from flag as a highly trained C/S and having a very strong TTC. An old friend from my past told a relative that he was routed into this Org and was very impressed. London Foundation having all the tough staff, came second and most likely had highest production were staff member. Plymouth may have been third. This 'expansion' could be seen as a rehab of yesteryears.

    As for the number of Scientologists in the EG belt. My evaluation came from examining the amount of people from the area in good standing attending various events and the size of activity in the EG area including GG's mission and Wealden House. I did Call-In for the 2005 IAS event and the names on there were a good indicator. That event is the one that public are most likely to attend.
     
  9. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    Lionheart.

    No, I am not saying anything like that.

    I am also not pretending to be Crowley.

    I didn't mean to suggest I am a disciple of anybody or that everything Crowley wrote was truth.

    But in the banquet of life I would simply prefer to sit at his table.

    He , like Hubbard, was able to take me to places I had not visited yet before in my own universe.

    Only Crowley was full of desire.

    The whole militia thing around Hubbard was totally not me.

    Hubbard himself didn't live the life of a Sea Org member.

    The staff and the contracts and the justice I guess it was neccessary, I will never know if it wasn't.

    Certainly following instructions for a uniform result was neccessary but we do that when we cook.

    Hubbard required commitments and allegiences put in writing and enforced.

    He was a very demanding host in that game.

    I can't sit at the same table with an overly demanding person unless it is a child.

    I gladly paid for what I got so my exchange was in.

    But I am a natural orphan and that family was just too boxed in for me.

    I am everything a militia abhors.

    I am everything one man full of desire loves, be I male or female, because I agree with this method of living.

    It is good to know your place in the world, otherwise someone might just pick you up and put your somewhere you do not belong!

    I contributed very well to the Scientology movement in many ways, many of us here did whether we were called suppressives or not.

    But this "kill the guy in front of you so we can save the planet" is the biggest thing that does not add up.

    The entire Sea Org structure is set up on domination. There is a wide difference between being cause and domination.

    If you can't care about the guy in front of you, how can you really care about the people away from you that are not even real to you?

    It could not possibly be true that the lives of every man woman and child on this planet depend upon my being in a toxic group.

    I can care about the person in front of me.

    The Orgs and missions who do not take the planet into scope but focus on the people in front of them in their own neightborhoods can be very nice places to visit. I always loved going in to the Orgs and missions.

    I find I am empowered better by Crowley, and that was made possible by Hubbard, whom was empowered by Crowley.

    So I just choose to sit at Crowley's table.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2007
  10. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    "Certainly following instructions for a uniform result was neccessary but we do that when we cook."

    For those who don't understand " Standard Tech" this hopefully gives some
    insight. Doing the usual. Cooking. :)
     
  11. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Why was 'it' necessary? Why was a 'uniform result' desireable at all?

    A cook who rigidly follows a recipe by rote is no cook worth speaking of. Any *decent* cook constantly evolves his recipes to achieve constantly changing and evolving creations.

    Yes, a *chemist* needs to stick to the 'formula' to achieve the desired outcome, but, chemistry is *science*, while cooking is not.

    And, no matter what Ron claimed, there's *nothing* scientific about Scientology.

    And, even a chemist is constantly varying his formula and learning, while the production manager is forced to keep churning out the same old same old because that's what's *wanted*.

    Most of the people here have *seen* Scientology; seen where the recipe goes. They have *seen* the 'valuable final product'.

    Considering what else is in there, you could toss in a dead cat without significantly 'degrading' the recipe :)

    The *last* thing a Scientologist realizes is that what the 'Church' is, is what Ron made it. They'll spend years carping about the stew being oversalted or too much oregano without noticing the carcass they're chewing.

    Zinj
     
  12. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    ZINJ
    Why was 'it' necessary? Why was a 'uniform result' desireable at all?

    BB
    Only if it was desirable.
    Z
    A cook who rigidly follows a recipe by rote is no cook worth speaking of. Any *decent* cook constantly evolves his recipes to achieve constantly changing and evolving creations.
    BB
    If a rote cook gets results is that not valid? Almost everywhere you go to eat follows such results.

    A creative " decent" cook is not nessessarily in the mainstream. But is worth listening to.

    You may wish to?





    Yes, a *chemist* needs to stick to the 'formula' to achieve the desired outcome, but, chemistry is *science*, while cooking is not.
     
  13. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    It is not so esoteric that people keep successful actions in.

    You buy things all the time based on previous good experience: Food, shampoo, your favorite wine, your favorite sandwich. your favorite resort and hairdresser.

    How would you like it if you married someone who turned into someone else?

    LFBD!

    People need prediction and that is why there are recipies.

    When McDonalds corp. stopped using animal fat for their french fries the franchise almost collapsed.
     
  14. OHTEEATE

    OHTEEATE Silver Meritorious Patron

    Expansion

    Steve, You are not killing any joy in my opinion. I answered this question in the affirmative many, many times. "Would you like others to have the same gains you are having?" I had wins all the way up the Bridge. My gripe is with the rip off of Scientology by the SP in charge currently. I object to the OT levels not being released. I object to Super Power being delayed until at least late '08. I object to secret hideouts being lavishly equipped for the skeedaddle of previously mentioned SPs. And, sadly, I object to the lies the old man told to be more socially acceptable, I guess he thought he needed the altitude.( I really don't need a lecture on how evil he was, so please spare me.) Yeah, the schedule in the Sea Org sucks. You can get killed multiple times in there, and be resurrected like Jesus through the RPF. It's a miracle! Hallelulyah! Good GOD! Sorry, I really miss James Brown. Expansion means somebody is trying to get better using a proven method. It's not bad that it is expanding, if it is. It sure needs better leadership, however, and cleaner hands. Another key question is, how can Int Base staff be shrinking and Scientology be growing? There are only 24 hours in a day and people need SOME sleep. Steve, This is the ex-Scientologist message board. If and when it becomes the Anti-Scientology message board, I'm outta here. It's ok to give good news about the organization in here. You will get backup. Mike
     
  15. tarbaby

    tarbaby Patron with Honors

    Aw comeon, Mike. There's no need to get all huffy about it. Absolutely no need to to go all pro 'n anti on us. But hey, if the board starts to bug you, don't hesitate to bitch about it in some rational manner. Threats ... not so much.

    You'll be sure to tell us if you start back on A2E? Right?

    Dennis
     
  16. Emma

    Emma Con te partirĂ² Administrator

    Mike,

    An excerpt from the FAQ:

    Not all ex Scientologists remain "believers". In fact, the longer someone has been out of the organisation, the more likely they are to feel that there was little or nothing of worth in Scientology.

    So while this board is not an "anti" board, there will be many members who do not support Hubbard or the tech in any way.

    All viewpoints are welcomed on this board.
     
  17. Colleen K. Peltomaa

    Colleen K. Peltomaa Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yum, animal fat!
     
  18. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat

    Mike, I know your wife from OCMB and she is completely anti-Scientology.

    You two must have some interesting discussions. :)
     
  19. Steven James

    Steven James Guest

    Hello Mike,

    I agree with you there. I had wins up the Bridge too and so did all my PC's. It is very hard to have gains and wins when on staff or when a lot of money is involved. Too much case gets keyed in before it can be handled.

    Regarding clean hands- I believe this may be the key to the decline of Scientology in the US/UK. The press I find is actually less rabid in those countries than in the 90's and even the governments have completely backed off. So much damage has been done internally however, that until those overts are handled, the Orgs will never thrive. I can think of one project in Europe which is doomed to fail.

    The Ukraine, Russia, Kazhakstan, Taiwan, South Africa, even Spain are far enough from 'uplines' and group think to be safe places for public and for expansion.

    There is a great out-point about Int Base shrinking. The work coming out of Int Base has increased in the past few years. The Golden Age of Knowledge was a very extensive project. I watched the staff briefing of the production line and it was a huge project. There has since been another load of re-released materials and new releases and there is even more to come; the re-worked books. The gold musicians also play at events like the big annual IAS event at Saint Hill.

    Int Base is not key to Scientology's survival. I don't doubt it is shrinking. The work may be just pushed down onto lower Orgs or certain projects cut out all together. Int are always sending out questionaires to non-Sea Org Orgs for recruitment. They are persistent. Per Blownforgood Int has only had one new arrival in five years?
     
  20. OHTEEATE

    OHTEEATE Silver Meritorious Patron

    expansion

    Dennis, It's cool, sorry to sound huffy. No A to E in my future, no worries mate. Bridges burnt to a crisp behind me in that arena, and what ever lies ahead does not include musters for ANYTHING! I think even a roll call would send me screaming at this point!
    Emma, Thanks for the reminder!
    Lulu, Donna and I have some passionate discussions, which do not result in either of us changing our positions. It's just fun. I think the difference is training. I audited PCs to good wins on each of the levels, Scn Drug Rundown, Objectives, I exteriorized people on Op Pro by Dup, and I had wins myself that no one can convince me were imaginary. I think that can stand by itself, inviolate, while I participate in other people getting "over it", recovering their sanity, and stability, and working to reform the existing CofS, by whatever means are necessary. Wins in session do not mean the CofS is perfect and above correction. It does not correct itself. I could be wrong, too. My wife could be right and screw the baby, it goes out with the bathwater. I look around and don't see any valid replacement for Scientology that has any prayer of growing fast enough to prevent a dramatization of certain events which would blow this civilization away, literally. So, for now I favor reform, not wipeout. Humbly tendered... Mike