Is Scientology really that bad?

[strativarius]

Not to make light of your hard times, Strat, but the above sentence keeps cracking me up. Reminds me of some of the funnier parts of Naked Lunch ...

"So there I am trapped three weeks in the headwaters of the Upper Baboonasshole and half the bearers down with the aftosa. Achmed, that little sneak, switched my cocaine with Saniflush, so I set up a meet to buy more.

When I got there I had to fight to gain entrance to a hovel that stank of cat piss. Most disgusting thing I ever stood still for."

Wait a minute! I can't find my copy of Naked Lunch, it's probably in one of the many cardboard boxes stuffed full of paperbacks out in the hall, but are you saying that I've actually lifted a sentence from it word for word? If so, that's an incredible coincidence - it certainly wasn't done on purpose.

As for making light of my hard times, I never think about them, and anyway, what don't kill ya makes ya stronger. :)

 

[pineapple]

Wait a minute! I can't find my copy of Naked Lunch, it's probably in one of the many cardboard boxes stuffed full of paperbacks out in the hall, but are you saying that I've actually lifted a sentence from it word for word? If so, that's an incredible coincidence - it certainly wasn't done on purpose.

As for making light of my hard times, I never think about them, and anyway, what don't kill ya makes ya stronger. :)

Lest you spend hours poring over Naked Lunch looking for that sentence, no, it isn't really in there, AFAIK. It just sounded so much like something that might be that I couldn't help thinking of it.

 

[strativarius]

Lest you spend hours poring over Naked Lunch looking for that sentence, no, it isn't really in there, AFAIK. It just sounded so much like something that might be that I couldn't help thinking of it.

Well, how could I be anything less than flattered?

"Roses and thorns through translucent flesh squirming a slow scream of roses. I turn the page ..."

 

[Clay Pigeon]

live communication is not profound, even low on the so called tone scale.

Your live communication is filled with rhetoric and bullshit.

How many people you audit to clear? How many people you bring up the tone scale?

Other than Billy Martin and his wife?

line three...

None and countless.

Although I didn't audit anyone to clear several of my PC's went on, some still active and others hav entirely repudiated the subject.

You're welcome to your opinion an it's expression; I don't believe I'm bullshitting anyone

 

[Clay Pigeon]

@pineapple

CP may be confusing Unitarian Universalism as being just another Christian denomination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

My church in Boston, First Church in Boston is UU formerly, when founded in 1632 very christian, in fact it is the church which sewed the scarlet letter on Hester Prynne (I forget her real name. She's buried in a cemetary ner Boston Common). It became increasingly liberal with Independence and became Unitarian around the time of the Civil War but it's Puritan roots remain strong. The Universalists merged with the Unitarians in the early 60's.

About ten percent of the UU flock are openly professing christian and UU belief is predominantly Judeochristian but very Universal in it's affection for the T'ao Te Zhing, The Bagpipe Gita, Mad Magazine and passing around a doobie now and then.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Okay, I will. Scientology is incompatible with Christianity.

"ENEMY — SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."
-- HCO POLICY LETTER OF 18 OCTOBER 1967, "PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS"

http://suppressiveperson.org/1967/10/18/hcopl-penalties-for-lower-conditions/

Does that sound very Christian to you? What about "love your enemies"? What about "turn the other cheek," eh?

And don't give me any BS about Fair Game being canceled. That policy only cancels the use of the term "Fair Game" on ethics orders. That was only a PR move.

That's like saying "You're not a professing Scientologist, so how can you judge Scientology?" Would you assert that someone not currently practicing scn can't judge scn? I WAS a professing Christian, and I know what it's about. I went to 12 years of Catholic school, including high school with the Jesuits. I had a cousin who spent her entire life as a nun. I've read most of the Bible, both new and old testaments.

I consider myself fit to judge because I am a human being with a brain who can see that a religion that mocks and denigrates Christianity is not compatible with it.

You, on the other hand, seem to be talking about some fantasy version of scn that exists only in your own mind. It bears little resemblance to the real thing, something you're either unwilling or unable to confront.

I damn well "Fair Game" wasn't canceled. I sure as HELL do not practice it nor do I practice such things as Black Dianetics etc...

Whereas I am a christian.

As I studied...

I edited.

Th koolaid is NOT compatible with christianity the wine of it IS!!!!

And again...

DIANETICS!!!

Is eminently compatible with christianity.

Also...

Scientologists do repeatedly point out that they "are not a 'turn the other cheek' religion"

Well...

Neither are we.

Turning the other cheek is one of the tools in our toolbox and of immense value when used well. However, if you check, I believe, the Gospel according to Luke you find that just before The Nazarene knowingly made himself available for crucifixtion he advises his band to arm themselves with state of the art personal weapnry; then swords, currently Uzis, fragmentation grenades, Browning M2 .50 Calibre MG's and Boom Boxes loaded with Rolling Stone albums.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

You just don't get it do you? What I wrote was all true, but it was sarcasm William. I could fill pages and pages with descriptions of the crap I've been through in my life, starting with being born into the world's most dysfunctional family, and that probably goes for many of the posters here, but who gives a shit?

Actually Stratsie I would love to hear you go on a bit about your dysfunctional family. It was either Tolstoy or Dostoevsky who said "Happy Families are all the same but every unhappy family is unhappy in it's own way."

Quite understandable if you demur but it can be both readable literature for us and catharsis for you and deepen the bonds of this...ahem...diverse gathering

 

[strativarius]

Actually Stratsie I would love to hear you go on a bit about your dysfunctional family. It was either Tolstoy or Dostoevsky who said "Happy Families are all the same but every unhappy family is unhappy in it's own way."

Quite understandable if you demur but it can be both readable literature for us and catharsis for you and deepen the bonds of this...ahem...diverse gathering

My mother was from a family of rich eastern European jews who, seeing the way the cookie was crumbling in the 1930's, decided to move themselves and their wealth to England while they still could.

She married an equally wealthy Englishman and produced my step brother with whom I later formed the strongest bond of anyone in our family (and who, years later, introduced me to scientology).

My mother's marriage soon failed and she went to live with her aunt and her aunt's businessman husband in a huge house in a swanky part of north west London where there were butlers, maids, cooks, a gong in the hallway that was sounded at mealtimes and an enormous Great Dane called Bruce.

As well as butlers and cooks etc. there was also a randy gardener, also of eastern european descent but not a jew, who knew a good thing when he saw it and banged my mother. I'm the result of that union.

That's all for now. :)

 

[Clay Pigeon]

My mother was from a family of rich eastern European jews who, seeing the way the cookie was crumbling in the 1930's, decided to move themselves and their wealth to England while they still could.

She soon married an equally wealthy Englishman and produced my step brother with whom I later formed the strongest bond of anyone in our family (and who, years later, introduced me to scientology).

My mother's marriage soon failed and she went to live with her aunt and her aunt's businessman husband in a huge house in swanky part of north west London where there were butlers, maids, cooks, a gong in the hallway that was sounded at mealtimes and an enormous Great Dane called Bruce.

As well as butlers and cooks etc. there was also a randy gardener, also of eastern european descent, who knew a good thing when he saw it and banged my mother. I'm the result of that union.

That's all for now. :)

Cooooooooooooooooooooool...

 

[Gib]

line three...

None and countless.

Although I didn't audit anyone to clear several of my PC's went on, some still active and others hav entirely repudiated the subject.

You're welcome to your opinion an it's expression; I don't believe I'm bullshitting anyone

so you didn't audit anyone to clear but several of your PC's went on. On to what?

some still active you say, what does that mean?

others have entirely repudiated the subject. How many vs how many not repudiated the subject?

Are you presently in communication with these people? And if not, how would you know anything you wrote?

If you can't answer my questions, you are a bullshit artist.

 

[pineapple]

Th koolaid is NOT compatible with christianity the wine of it IS!!!!

And again...

DIANETICS!!!

Is eminently compatible with christianity.

Well, let me remind you that Science of Survival has that bit about "eliminating quietly and without sorrow" anyone below 2.0 on the tone scale. SOS is dianetics, and a book you've often praised. Again, not very Christian.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

so you didn't audit anyone to clear but several of your PC's went on. On to what?

some still active you say, what does that mean?

others have entirely repudiated the subject. How many vs how many not repudiated the subject?

Are you presently in communication with these people? And if not, how would you know anything you wrote?

If you can't answer my questions, you are a bullshit artist.

Went on to "Clear" as it is called.

Still active in many cases means still on staff, some at FCDC some in Clearwater.

Couldn't tell you the census of in v. out but I do several of each from sticking my nose in at FCDC and from dear friends TAJ, Mystic, Nozeno, Uncle Sam late of this board...

A cry of "bullshit!!!" in response to my claims of "OT" influence on major sporting events is sensible enough Gibby.

I would be grateful if you would respect my dedicated honesty in giving account of material matters

 

[Gib]

Went on to "Clear" as it is called.

Still active in many cases means still on staff, some at FCDC some in Clearwater.

Couldn't tell you the census of in v. out but I do several of each from sticking my nose in at FCDC and from dear friends TAJ, Mystic, Nozeno, Uncle Sam late of this board...

A cry of "bullshit!!!" in response to my claims of "OT" influence on major sporting events is sensible enough Gibby.

I would be grateful if you would respect my dedicated honesty in giving account of material matters

I bow to no man

 

[Xenu Xenu Xenu]

Yes, it's that bad.


-- L. Ron Hubbard
from page 70, Dianetics The Modern Science Of Mental Health

The reactive mind doesn't exist but Hubbard certainly designed it just the same. I wonder if the above quote was his little ''in joke''. He was a bad dude and Scientology kills.

Or as others have said, "Scientology, it's worse than you think."

But what is Scientology, anyway?

I used to ask that question myself -- after I left the cult.

I knew it was a fraud and a scam but I knew very little else.

I guess I just wanted to know just what this thing was that I got involved in for over a decade. I also wanted to know how I got fooled and just how I got fooled for so long. I read tons of books on the subject and then read what there was on the internet until I couldn't stand it anymore. I also read books about other cults as well. That is why I don't read personal stories on Scientology anymore. It is too painful to read and all too familiar and predictable.

After a while, I became satisfied that I had a pretty good idea about how Scientology works to fool people. I may not know everything about it but I know enough. I think what I learned applies to other cults as well. I am glad I went to the effort because for me, it was never good enough for me just accept the fact that I was ''fooled''. I just knew that it wasn't quite that simple and that there was more to it than that.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Well, let me remind you that Science of Survival has that bit about "eliminating quietly and without sorrow" anyone below 2.0 on the tone scale. SOS is dianetics, and a book you've often praised. Again, not very Christian.

I am very well aware of that passage. I red flagged that passage on sight the first time I read it

As I have stated repeatedly.

No.

That is a most unchristian sentiment

As I have stated repeatedly.

And SoS has several other much less glaring flaws.

In spite of those flaws I still consider it the single finest basic guide book of human psychology ever written and the COHE is excellent; I have only seen one specific phrase on it subject to criticism.

I'm at a loss as to why you would think a single major flaw condemns the book, could you explain?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Or as others have said, "Scientology, it's worse than you think."

But what is Scientology, anyway?

I used to ask that question myself -- after I left the cult.

I knew it was a fraud and a scam but I knew very little else.

I guess I just wanted to know just what this thing was that I got involved in for over a decade. I also wanted to know how I got fooled and just how I got fooled for so long. I read tons of books on the subject and then read what there was on the internet until I couldn't stand it anymore. I also read books about other cults as well. That is why I don't read personal stories on Scientology anymore. It is too painful to read and all to familiar and predictable.

After a while, I became satisfied that I had a pretty good idea about how Scientology works to fool people. I may not know everything about it but I know enough. I think what I learned applies to other cults as well. I am glad I went to the effort because for me, it was never good enough for me just accept the fact that I was ''fooled''. I just knew that it wasn't quite that simple and that there was more to it than that.

I don't think it is essentially a fraud and a scam

I believe it essentially to be "A nondenominational applied religious philosophy"

But...

It has some bad policy and overemphasizes $$$$ and when for instance a PC who didn't get anything out of the auditing they had is told that will be handled in the next level up...

yeah...

They're scammin' the poor bloke

 

[pineapple]

I'm at a loss as to why you would think a single major flaw condemns the book, could you explain?

I didn't say a single major flaw -- the "eliminate quietly and without sorrow" bit -- condemns the book (SOS). You said that dianetics is eminently compatible with Christianity. I pointed out that the above-referenced passage hardly expresses a Christian viewpoint. Compare it with the Sermon on the Mount, for example.

I don't remember SOS in detail. I haven't read it since leaving scn 38 years ago. But from my present viewpoint, I don't think it needs that passage to condemn it. Dianetics does not work as claimed. The time track and engrams do not exist as claimed by Hubbard. The book is based on false premises. SOS is a continuation of the exposition of dianetics begun in DMSMH. I think it's condemned by that fact alone.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I didn't say a single major flaw -- the "eliminate quietly and without sorrow" bit -- condemns the book (SOS). You said that dianetics is eminently compatible with Christianity. I pointed out that the above-referenced passage hardly expresses a Christian viewpoint. Compare it with the Sermon on the Mount, for example.

I don't remember SOS in detail. I haven't read it since leaving scn 38 years ago. But from my present viewpoint, I don't think it needs that passage to condemn it. Dianetics does not work as claimed. The time track and engrams do not exist as claimed by Hubbard. The book is based on false premises. SOS is a continuation of the exposition of dianetics begun in DMSMH. I think it's condemned by that fact alone.

I've read SoS a few times.

The big clunker which Veda so often puts, is in m estimation very big clunker idea most particularly for th harsh way it is phrased. The phrasing makes it smack, even reek of Hitler's euthanasia program for "the useless eaters" but it certainly does not specify extermination.

Most decent people have "a case load"; people less advantaged they concern themselves with, but everyone has people they turn away and avoid. Hubbard is making it clear neither he nor his subject is anyone's birthright.

Moreover...

Christianity as you may be aware does have a disposal; HELLL!!!!

Also Old Testament consigns the iniquitous to "outer darkness"

But truly from personal observation that passage is abused in CoS; "fuck a bunch of DB's!"

Compassion is one of the great virtues; penury one of the great vices and I found much hardhearted penury in some Scienos. Not to say there was no compassion there but one might practice it and be censured for it.

 

[pineapple]

I've read SoS a few times.

The big clunker which Veda so often puts, is in m estimation very big clunker idea most particularly for th harsh way it is phrased. The phrasing makes it smack, even reek of Hitler's euthanasia program for "the useless eaters" but it certainly does not specify extermination.

This edition of SOS says "dispose of them quietly and without sorrow" (not "eliminate" as I remembered).
It also mentions "deletion" and "quarantining" and gives the example of the Venezuelan dictator
"destroying" the beggars to get rid of leprosy.* From page 100:

"There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes.
The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow.
...
The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0
down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line -- a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred -- or simply quarantining them from the society. A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country."

https://www.e-reading.by/bookreader.php/133980/Science_of_Survival._Prediction_of_Human_Behavior.pdf

* According to @Me and My Self's first post on this board, the Venezuelan dictator bit is inaccurate.

 

[pineapple]

Christianity as you may be aware does have a disposal; HELLL!!!!

Yeah, and that's bullshit too.