Is That Magic Thinking or Scientific?

[JustSheila]

Without getting into the subject of God or what He is responsible for doing or not,

Without getting into any conflict about beliefs v actuality,

my atheist friends have provided me with a tremendous amount of insight into what is magical or delusional thinking and I've found that getting rid of the magical thinking really helps one think a lot more clearly and take better charge of my life.

Thank you, atheists and Udarnik.

Now, whenever I run across some of my old ways of thinking, I ask myself, "Is that Magical Thinking or Scientific?"

For example:

I was going to put a tenner in the poker machine the other day, but then I asked myself, "Is that magical thinking or scientific?"

The idea that I would leave with even my initial ten dollars was well against the odds. The idea I'd leave with more than my ten dollars was even more against the odds. Statistically and scientifically, it was most likely I would leave without my ten dollars and maybe even lose more than that.

Hmmm... magical thinking. So I walked away with my tenner still in my pocket.

Another example:

I had an upset stomach with no obvious cause, so I laid down for a few minutes and focused on relaxing my stomach.

Then I stopped myself. "Is that Magical Thinking or Scientific?"

Hmmm... I wasn't auditing BTs from my stomach, I was not asking supernatural entities to cure it. I was simply focusing on relaxing my stomach muscles, which anyone can pretty much do consciously. I was also just slowing down and relaxing my mind, which would help relieve anxiety which would then result in less stomach acid and a more comfortable stomach.

Scientific. Cool. It worked. (If it hadn't, I could have taken medicine for it.)

Does anyone else do something like this?

 

[WildKat]

I'm still examining my ideas about Karma and whether it's "the law" or not ...or just magical thinking? A lot of the ideas in Scientology seemed to align with the Karma idea. I accepted it for a long time. But now I don't know. I think it was something I wanted to believe in. It seemed to answer a lot of questions about "why".

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

Without getting into the subject of God or what He is responsible for doing or not,

Without getting into any conflict about beliefs v actuality,

my atheist friends have provided me with a tremendous amount of insight into what is magical or delusional thinking and I've found that getting rid of the magical thinking really helps one think a lot more clearly and take better charge of my life.

Thank you, atheists and Udarnik.

Now, whenever I run across some of my old ways of thinking, I ask myself, "Is that Magical Thinking or Scientific?"

For example:

I was going to put a tenner in the poker machine the other day, but then I asked myself, "Is that magical thinking or scientific?"

The idea that I would leave with even my initial ten dollars was well against the odds. The idea I'd leave with more than my ten dollars was even more against the odds. Statistically and scientifically, it was most likely I would leave without my ten dollars and maybe even lose more than that.

Hmmm... magical thinking. So I walked away with my tenner still in my pocket.

Another example:

I had an upset stomach with no obvious cause, so I laid down for a few minutes and focused on relaxing my stomach.

Then I stopped myself. "Is that Magical Thinking or Scientific?"

Hmmm... I wasn't auditing BTs from my stomach, I was not asking supernatural entities to cure it. I was simply focusing on relaxing my stomach muscles, which anyone can pretty much do consciously. I was also just slowing down and relaxing my mind, which would help relieve anxiety which would then result in less stomach acid and a more comfortable stomach.

Scientific. Cool. It worked. (If it hadn't, I could have taken medicine for it.)

Does anyone else do something like this?

I do this all the time. Our brains are hardwired to notice patterns and to theorize as to why the patterns exist.

I like to think of myself as a skeptic, but I catch myself all the time thinking things are possible or likely that I later discover are not.

Michael Shermer has some great books on this, and lots of lectures on youtube. Avoiding magical thinking is a lifelong discipline. In doing it, we are effectively fighting human nature. This is one of the reasons Hubbard was so successful. It is easier to think magically. It's natural.

 

[JustSheila]

Yeh, I don't have the karma thing sorted out, either, but I no longer look at a person and use it to explain his or her behaviour or circumstances. That's too shallow and distant.

But I will use it to explain why some people never, ever change, no matter what you do to help them or teach them. Some neglectful, irresponsible and uncaring parents stay bad parents even after Scientology. Like Serge's parents (See Karen's youtube thread). They probably used "karma" to justify allowing their disabled son to suffer on the streets for decades with no hands or home, and in that case, it is a misuse of the concept.

But then, there is also the sort of karma where when you do something good for a person, it often comes back to you. I tend to believe in that sort of karma, I just don't depend on it 'cause it doesn't always work that way.

I think karma is a whole lot more complicated than a simple cause & effect on an individual basis. There are other living things, groups and other forces (physical and otherwise) also involved.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

I'm still examining my ideas about Karma and whether it's "the law" or not ...or just magical thinking? A lot of the ideas in Scientology seemed to align with the Karma idea. I accepted it for a long time. But now I don't know. I think it was something I wanted to believe in. It seemed to answer a lot of questions about "why".

I think Karma is a fiction. I've seen too many successful people whose immorality is the reason for their success to believe in Karma.

I also think that it is not a useful belief. Often Children's rights are negated by the idea that they are adults in child bodies. This is certainly true in Scientology, but I think it is true elsewhere as well.

A belief in Karma also allows us to turn our back on the plight of the poor. Their poverty can be seen as the result of their Karma instead of the product of an imperfect system. Karma can lead to neglect and an insular society.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

Yeh, I don't have the karma thing sorted out, either, but I no longer look at a person and use it to explain his or her behaviour or circumstances. That's too shallow and distant.

But I will use it to explain why some people never, ever change, no matter what you do to help them or teach them. Some neglectful, irresponsible and uncaring parents stay bad parents even after Scientology. Like Serge's parents (See Karen's youtube thread). They probably used "karma" to justify allowing their disabled son to suffer on the streets for decades with no hands or home, and in that case, it is a misuse of the concept.

But then, there is also the sort of karma where when you do something good for a person, it often comes back to you. I tend to believe in that sort of karma, I just don't depend on it 'cause it doesn't always work that way.

I think karma is a whole lot more complicated than a simple cause & effect on an individual basis. There are other living things, groups and other forces (physical and otherwise) also involved.

I believe that doing good is often returned to you, but I don't believe that is magical. I think it is just how people operate in small communities because of our tribal psychology.

I am also painfully aware that being indispensable in a corporate environment is the perfect way to invite punishment (in the form of reduced holidays, minimal chances of promotion and the like). So while Karma works in a small community, in a large anonymous corporate community it doesn't.

 

[JustSheila]

I do this all the time. Our brains are hardwired to notice patterns and to theorize as to why the patterns exist.

I like to think of myself as a skeptic, but I catch myself all the time thinking things are possible or likely that I later discover are not.

Michael Shermer has some great books on this, and lots of lectures on youtube. Avoiding magical thinking is a lifelong discipline. In doing it, we are effectively fighting human nature. This is one of the reasons Hubbard was so successful. It is easier to think magically. It's natural.

Thanks, Racecar. So nice to hear your views. I really miss you IRL, btw. Big Easter plans?

I had NO idea it was a lifelong discipline, thanks. It makes me feel a bit better to know I am not the only one who has to work at it.

I think Karma is a fiction. I've seen too many successful people whose immorality is the reason for their success to believe in Karma.

I also think that it is not a useful belief. Often Children's rights are negated by the idea that they are adults in child bodies. This is certainly true in Scientology, but I think it is true elsewhere as well.

A belief in Karma also allows us to turn our back on the plight of the poor. Their poverty can be seen as the result of their Karma instead of the product of an imperfect system. Karma can lead to neglect and an insular society.

I agree completely, Racecar, but I have a bit of a different spin on the concept of karma than the usual, "They are in trouble because that's their karma" victim blaming that oppressors and irresponsible people do.

My concept of it is that the universe itself constantly seeks balance, but rarely obtains it. In a balanced, healthy ecosystem, circumstances temporarily make one life form stronger than others and temporarily dominant, but changes in weather, temperature, or food sources eventually bring the numbers down and another dominates. They cycle is continuous. Some life forms die and new ones form, but the ecosystem itself continues to survive and thrive. The type of life form that makes this happen is secondary to the survival of the ecosystem itself.

IF the whole universe is a balanced ecosystem, then no matter what we or anyone else does that throws it off, it will survive. Man may not, because man is secondary. This is the karma of physics.

It has nothing to do with people causing suffering to others, though, but it does mean that those that cause suffering will eventually meet a similar fate because all of our circumstances are temporary and secondary to the survival of the universe itself.

 

[Free Being Me]

A fascinating thread. I found Atheism a helpful tool regarding self deprogramming from the cult due to looking at the magical thinking prevalent not just from the cult but the myriad assumptive wishful thinking that oneonewasaracecar mentions is part of human nature. Saviors, Guru's, Con men, et al who have the market cornered with the Answer. Something akin to running all self programming back to zero and starting over. Questioning verifiable fact from presumptuous indulgence such as belief systems that have become circular habitual crutches.

A part of that is realizing and admitting not having an answer to well, everything. It's okay to not know about a subject, situation, what have you, instead of holding a cursory opinion. From ignorance comes knowledge.

“One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding.”
-Richard Dawkins

“Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.”
-Benjamin Franklin

 

[DeeAnna]

For anyone who wonders about karma, just remember..... Charles Manson is still alive.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

Thanks, Racecar. So nice to hear your views. I really miss you IRL, btw. Big Easter plans?

I had NO idea it was a lifelong discipline, thanks. It makes me feel a bit better to know I am not the only one who has to work at it.



I agree completely, Racecar, but I have a bit of a different spin on the concept of karma than the usual, "They are in trouble because that's their karma" victim blaming that oppressors and irresponsible people do.

My concept of it is that the universe itself constantly seeks balance, but rarely obtains it. In a balanced, healthy ecosystem, circumstances temporarily make one life form stronger than others and temporarily dominant, but changes in weather, temperature, or food sources eventually bring the numbers down and another dominates. They cycle is continuous. Some life forms die and new ones form, but the ecosystem itself continues to survive and thrive. The type of life form that makes this happen is secondary to the survival of the ecosystem itself.

IF the whole universe is a balanced ecosystem, then no matter what we or anyone else does that throws it off, it will survive. Man may not, because man is secondary. This is the karma of physics.

It has nothing to do with people causing suffering to others, though, but it does mean that those that cause suffering will eventually meet a similar fate because all of our circumstances are temporary and secondary to the survival of the universe itself.

If our survival is the ultimate goal of our life (OMG I sound like Ron), then our morality is tied to our survival. If we are immoral, we don't survive. I know that is simplistic, and it doesn't cover all forms of morality, but our psychology is the product of evolution, so we have with us the psychology that we need to be good at cooperating with each other.

Where humans have done very well is with culture. There is an evolutionary tendency for us to have high levels of regard for our kin. You can track the process of civilization by tracking the size of the group we consider our kin. First, the family, then the community, then the country, then the human race, then other animals and even other forms of life (We recently crashed a probe into Jupiter rather than one of the moons because we thought we might contaminate it and ruin their ecosystem). Notice I did not use the word dynamics here.

The universe will survive without us, and eventually our sun will sterilize this planet (In about 5 billion years when it starts to expand). Our survival depends on us advancing to clear this sector of the galaxy. Oh shit, Ron was right after all.

I wonder how much it would cost for me for my amends so I can go up the bridge.

I also miss you. And no plans for Easter for me. Just lazing.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

...

I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this thread. I don't know anything about Karma and I don't know anyone who does. Perhaps those of you now wasting your time reading this post are experiencing Karma? LOL

I never really believed in Karma. I am certain that I don't know whether it is true or not.

Even if it is true, who says that any MAN knows how it works exactly.

After Scientology, when I hear someone being very certain about Karma, it just kinda seems like the Overt Motivator sequence without the headcams.

 

[Free Being Me]

If our survival is the ultimate goal of our life (OMG I sound like Ron), then our morality is tied to our survival. If we are immoral, we don't survive. I know that is simplistic, and it doesn't cover all forms of morality, but our psychology is the product of evolution, so we have with us the psychology that we need to be good at cooperating with each other.

Where humans have done very well is with culture. There is an evolutionary tendency for us to have high levels of regard for our kin. You can track the process of civilization by tracking the size of the group we consider our kin. First, the family, then the community, then the country, then the human race, then other animals and even other forms of life (We recently crashed a probe into Jupiter rather than one of the moons because we thought we might contaminate it and ruin their ecosystem). Notice I did not use the word dynamics here.

The universe will survive without us, and eventually our sun will sterilize this planet (In about 5 billion years when it starts to expand). Our survival depends on us advancing to clear this sector of the galaxy. Oh shit, Ron was right after all.

I wonder how much it would cost for me for my amends so I can go up the bridge.

I also miss you. And no plans for Easter for me. Just lazing.

I agree, the banding of humans together was and is a part of our evolutionary development to ensure safety and survival for present needs and the next generation. Safety in numbers from predators and enemy clans, food gathering, hunting, varied skills within the group, available mates, caring for the young, are a part of our DNA.

It's when someone said thunder and lightning come from (insert Deity/Guru) eons ago that all that wishful thinking came into play. LOL. Imagination is a great virtue right up until some unprincipled idiot tries to sell a bridge to nowhere.

 

[MrNobody]

For anyone who wonders about karma, just remember..... Charles Manson is still alive.

Yes, exactly that - and the other side of the coin:
One of the loveliest, most honest and upright persons I've ever had the pleasure to know, was one of the 14 persons who had to die in one of the most tragic motorcycle accidents in my country. Where's the karma in that?

IMO, karma doesn't exist - it's all just random shit life, nature or whatchamacallit dishes out to random people.

Of course, that doesn't meant that a positive attitude can't be helpful in life.

 

[Gib]

...

I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this thread. I don't know anything about Karma and I don't know anyone who does. Perhaps those of you now wasting your time reading this post are experiencing Karma? LOL

I never really believed in Karma. I am certain that I don't know whether it is true or not.

Even if it is true, who says that any MAN knows how it works exactly.

After Scientology, when I hear someone being very certain about Karma, it just kinda seems like the Overt Motivator sequence without the headcams.

I believe Karma is totally bypassed in scientology by the power formula writeup by hubbard, simon bolivar,

flow power to the power. LOL

Give me your money, and you will get money in return many times.

I believe this is called a magicians trick, only using words as the magic.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I think Karma is a fiction. I've seen too many successful people whose immorality is the reason for their success to believe in Karma.

I also think that it is not a useful belief. Often Children's rights are negated by the idea that they are adults in child bodies. This is certainly true in Scientology, but I think it is true elsewhere as well.

A belief in Karma also allows us to turn our back on the plight of the poor. Their poverty can be seen as the result of their Karma instead of the product of an imperfect system. Karma can lead to neglect and an insular society.

I generally agree with you on your points - very well said.

There is a lot of the "karmaic" about most magical belief systems including Christianity, Islam as well as the eastern religions - the idea that good and bad actions have consequences and that somehow a person will be punished or rewarded in some mythical future realm or life is, I think, a self serving one - and used a lot to explain the dichotomy of watching an evil or bad person prosper while good people suffer.

 

[degraded being]

I believe in Krama

...

I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this thread. I don't know anything about Karma and I don't know anyone who does. Perhaps those of you now wasting your time reading this post are experiencing Karma? LOL

I never really believed in Karma. I am certain that I don't know whether it is true or not.

Even if it is true, who says that any MAN knows how it works exactly.

After Scientology, when I hear someone being very certain about Karma, it just kinda seems like the Overt Motivator sequence without the headcams.

There is Krama even if you don't believe in it. You will be punished for not believing. Don't plead ingnince or humility. It is your moral duty to find out the truth. I can explain some of it for you. If you do bad you will actch a cold or get sick or have bad luck. Good people prosper. Look at DM and the cherch of swinetology. They have billions. That shows they have good krama. As someone pointed out Mr Manson is alive (and millions of other murderers) They must be good The Universe Knows. The Universe Knows. This is scientific. Read Deprak Chokepra. I think it's in there. There are billions of rules. The Universe is wise and knows of the rules. They are hidden from you.
There are longterm plans and short term plans and universe balances that you have to know in order to know how it's all working. Don't slip up. You cannot possibly know them all so you will fuck up and you WILL be punished. The Universe Knows. Don't blame the Universe just becuase you were born human and not a GOD who knows everything. Get on the right vibration.
I believe in Krama.

 

[degraded being]

AND ANOTHER THING>
The TRUE law of Krama is that you suffer if you do not keep DB happy.
Isn't that fascinating? You thought it was all about YOU and your FALSE ego.
Now you have the truth revealed by DB. You are NOT supposed to be keeping your SELFISH EGO happy. You are supposed to be happyfying MY EGO.
IT's ALL ABOUT ME BITCHES! Keep me happy and you will feel more peaceful, more contented, your business will do better and you won't catch so many colds.

Now that I have spewed that out I am seriously wondering about the masochistic aspect of the Karma belief. Like when people tie their happyness to pleasing someone. The LAW OF KARMA is similar. Some entity called KARMA, not personified, vaguely perceived, totally confusing and undefineable keeps our "happy" account and our "well being" account, balanced. Adding and subtracting from it as we keep Her/Him/It ( Karma), happy.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

...

Okay, I have changed my mind.

I now believe 100% in the principle of Karma, wherein good behavior is rewarded and bad behavior is punished.

Now there is only one small thing left to do...find one person who can tell me what is "good behavior" and what is "bad behavior".

Who should I talk to about that?

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

...

Okay, I have changed my mind.

I now believe 100% in the principle of Karma, wherein good behavior is rewarded and bad behavior is punished.

Now there is only one small thing left to do...find one person who can tell me what is "good behavior" and what is "bad behavior".

Who should I talk to about that?

Naughty nurse always works for me.

 

[degraded being]

...

Okay, I have changed my mind.

I now believe 100% in the principle of Karma, wherein good behavior is rewarded and bad behavior is punished.

Now there is only one small thing left to do...find one person who can tell me what is "good behavior" and what is "bad behavior".

Who should I talk to about that?

Wow!
That's sooo cool that it's real for you.
Come over here and talk to my registrar......