Is the cult insolvent?

[Reasonable]

Keep in mind that the Third World may be 99% dirt poor, but the elites that run the countries are extremely wealthy. $cn is not interested in the poor, they are interested in wealthy people, preferably holders of inherited wealth who don't have the intelligence of their ancestors who created the wealth.

DM's wet dream is to get his hooks into some wealthy Arab oil sheiks, or some African/Asian despot's extended family.

This makes sense to me. Then once he has his hooks in the people who make the rules he can much more easily make slave labor camps where the children make hats and canes and run the machinery and if they lose a finger or an eye there is no one to protect them.

 

[Idle Morgue]

This is what we needed to hear. But what of the Ideal Orgs? Are these Ideal Orgs pulling in more money-spending publics? Does anyone know what is going on at the London Ideal Org in this regard?

Not sure about London but in the US - the Idle Morgues that are open are EMPTY - just like the smaller buildings they used to occupy! No new public have really come in for years and years! Nothing has changed but the apparent illusion that the Co$ has grown into big buildings.

So let's have some fun here and do the math.

Vacant old buildings with no one new coming in = No $. This was the scene of Scientology for many years.

Staff and public (the very few diehards left in the cult) have been completely drained financially for the new buildings, IAS and Sooper Power! They will be leaving in small droves - small because they are SMALL!!

Over priced real estate purchased at the peak of the real estate market - 40K to 60K sq.ft. of renovated building + no new public coming in = Not only NO $ but expenses that will be impossible to pay (heat, electric, maintenance etc...).

Any way you add it up

0 + 0 = 0

0 + DEBT = -0

0 + -0 = OMG and WTF for the staff!

When the Staff finally see that it is not expanding - they will leave, leave, leave!

 

[Gottabrain]

Actually not - in 1989 saw the balances.

In 1995 the figure I got was from someone who had had access to the balances. Thats why I picked those two figures.

Please clarify. Access to balances doesn't mean access to actual money banked or bank statements. What exactly do these balances include and not include? Who comes up with these figures and how? Are these cash & property & money owed (considered a financial asset) according to Scn's own exhorbitant billing system?

The reference about gold? From Hubbard's policies/advices regarding how reserves were to be invested.?[/QUOTE]

I've never seen it. If you have it, please provide.

well you would not have seen IAS reserves statements in the early eighties unless you were one of the few people who even knew where the money was from 1985 to 1991.

I never stated I had access to IAS balances. IAS didn't exist when I was Dir Income USGO. Nor do I appreciate your attempts to discredit me as one of the few eye witnesses in 1981-1982 to actual SO Reserve bank statements and their expenditures at that time.

No, legal payments do not come out of IAS money and no IAS does not fund OSA - Flag funds OSA.

And you know this - how? By IAS own statements to the Scn public during public events, that is exactly where the monies go. I cannot verify, however. But you claim you can?

Please provide some actual IAS expenses then, and explain exactly where/how/what IAS donations are used.

As for the gold reference - that was always a huge, unsubstantiated rumor. I know you are one who believes vast gold reserves were around for many years and that COS invested primarily in gold. A source I know who worked closely with Hubbard for many years says this was always a rumor and not true. Realistically, there are probably some gold investments. IDK. Neither do you.

 

[Enthetan]

This makes sense to me. Then once he has his hooks in the people who make the rules he can much more easily make slave labor camps where the children make hats and canes and run the machinery and if they lose a finger or an eye there is no one to protect them.

Worse than that. Once he's "in" with a local despot, he can send SO members that he's unhappy with to that country "on mission", from which they never return.

You've heard of the slappy times at Int Base. Now visualize it being in some Third World hell hole.

 

[Ho Tai]

When the Staff finally see that it is not expanding - they will leave, leave, leave!

Not my experience. In my org, stats were flat or declining for years except for the few brief moments when something new (PTS/SP, Basics etc.) came out and everyone was compelled to do the New Thing.

As income crashed, a few left because they simply had to make more $$$, and some were picked off by the SO as they could not sustain their lives on their own. (Yes, I know that the SO is supposed to replace the people they take, but the games they play to do this are beyond disgusting. I actually had a high regard for the SO until I saw the things they did to the Class V orgs to steal their staff and their public.) And then there was the Idle Org program, the worst of all. Yet the core group remained, believing that if they did this or that program that all would be set right and the org would boom. Poor bastards.

 

[GoNuclear]

Pete, I think the cult is doing the same thing as Sears Roebuck, with the same results.

A few times over the last few decades, it seemed Sears was all over, but it was a billion dollar business with heaps of reserves. Sears went maybe 8 years with stores dying and still paying the bills before moving onto something else. Then it mostly sold itself to Kmart and still later, diversified, investing rather than producing.

Now, it appears Sears is again breathing its last dying breaths, after exhausting all its clever investment schemes and its once monstrous retail assets down to some 5% of what they once were.

Sears is now, basically a a hedge fund - with money being diverted from stores to non-retail financial investments.

But COS is attempting the same corporate actions as Sears!


That's a problem. Because The Church of Scientology cannot sell itself as an entity to anyone else - it is a "church" being managed as if it is a corporation, but it is NOT a corporation - its options are limited.

The Church of Scientology has attempted to diversify, had some success, but most of this backfired terribly with the NNs getting sued, VMs getting laughed at, etc. COS also cannot attempt divestiture (selling off parts of the company) like Sears did, and it cannot become a Merger, though it appears it is attempting something along this line.

It's quite predictable, actually. This is what all big corporate honchos do. It makes no sense, of course, with a "charitable organization" or "church", and less sense if we include Hubbard's own nonsense of extravagant use of lawyers and legal systems.

COS has become little more than a hedge fund,with the majority of money diverted from churches and normal church things to investments, instead, and almost no attention on actual spiritual betterment.


The midget is not actually running COS - these are corporate games, well outside his education or any church policies. COS is being run by lawyers and corporate people - and they are very, very predictable, as well as COS's demise.

The Cof$ IS a corporate entity, or, more accurately, an entire structure of corporate entities, some of which are for profit corporations and others are not for profit. They can and do play a shell game with their assets to protect themselves from judgements. Furthermore, while disposing of certain assets is more difficult rule wise for the not for profit entities, it can still be done.

As far as Sears goes ... I am not so hip regarding marketing etc. to detail why it is some retailers persist and others go belly-up, but, there seems to be ever less in the way of consumer choice and everything seems to be made in mainland China these days. Mainly, the only thing that I really like about Sears is some of their Craftsman tool collections. They have a line of wrenches and socket sets designed to replace 12 point, 6 point, spline, square, etc. Perhaps I will get a set before they go under.

Pete

 

[Dave B.]

The Cof$ IS a corporate entity, or, more accurately, an entire structure of corporate entities, some of which are for profit corporations and others are not for profit. They can and do play a shell game with their assets to protect themselves from judgements. Furthermore, while disposing of certain assets is more difficult rule wise for the not for profit entities, it can still be done.

As far as Sears goes ... I am not so hip regarding marketing etc. to detail why it is some retailers persist and others go belly-up, but, there seems to be ever less in the way of consumer choice and everything seems to be made in mainland China these days. Mainly, the only thing that I really like about Sears is some of their Craftsman tool collections. They have a line of wrenches and socket sets designed to replace 12 point, 6 point, spline, square, etc. Perhaps I will get a set before they go under.

Pete

I don't know what the corporate stucture of Sears is. i.e. are they in the retail business for real or just as an auxilliary to their Hedge funding and finanacial games. The Sears in Tijuana is the nicest Sears I've ever been in, it's huge, very nice and comparable to a Macy's. They're positioned differently in Mexico than the USA. Also, there is a big new Hotel/Casino/Resort going up soon in La Paz, Baja that will have a big new Sears store there. They may be building new stores and doing upscale retail in other countries while just faking it in the USA.

 

[Freeminds]

Not sure about London. . .

I have been known to loiter near the Idle Org in Queen Victoria Street, looking as if I'm waiting for a bus and counting the number of people going up the steps to the front entrance. You're looking at about five to seven people in a 'good' hour, most of them clearly on staff. Sometimes nobody goes in.

Compared to any other self-help bookshop, or any other alternative therapy clinic, that's a business going out of business... a financial disaster in huge premises that have got to cost a lot to run. Even with the disgraceful rates relief that Communities Secretary Eric Pickles said they shouldn't be getting exemption from, that's a heck of a big building going to waste. The longer Scientology continues with this real estate farce, the quicker it'll disappear off the map.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Please clarify. Access to balances doesn't mean access to actual money banked or bank statements. What exactly do these balances include and not include? Who comes up with these figures and how? Are these cash & property & money owed (considered a financial asset) according to Scn's own exhorbitant billing system?

The reference about gold? From Hubbard's policies/advices regarding how reserves were to be invested.?

I've never seen it. If you have it, please provide.

Well I have seen the current account balances and transfer figures from the accounts at KBL to Cyprus. Is that close enough?

I never stated I had access to IAS balances. IAS didn't exist when I was Dir Income USGO. Nor do I appreciate your attempts to discredit me as one of the few eye witnesses in 1981-1982 to actual SO Reserve bank statements and their expenditures at that time.

I am not trying to "discredit" you - I don;t care that much! You seem to keep assuming that I am basing my statements on some sort of press release from the CofS. So if I get a little irritated you might understand. I was part of the team that set up the IAS and set up the Administration in Cyprus. So I am not - when I refer to the time period from the start of the IAS until 1989 I am not talking about figures that were published for the benefit of the populace. In 1995 I got to talk to someone who had worked on the beginnings of the transfer of funds to the IAS trusts.

I am well aware of the billings done from orgs to lower orgs and the billings for FlagTraining for orgs but that really has no effect on the IAS monies.

So I based my estimate - and short of standing around with a calculator and bank statements that is the best we are going to be able to do from this remote a distance- on those figures.

As for the gold comment - Brigatti showed me the reference in her office at the gatehouse. I don't remember the exact wordage cos I read it exactly once 34years ago. The main parts of it were a) investment has to be in a readily transferable form b) it has to have intrinsic value c) it needs to be convertible. The preferences were gold, jewels, hard currencies like Swiss Francs and Deutsch Marks and Dollars. There were some more remarks and recommendations. As I understood it from her comments they tried to keep it at around 80% in gold certificates and the rest was in various cash accounts.

And you know this - how? By IAS own statements to the Scn public during public events, that is exactly where the monies go. I cannot verify, however. But you claim you can?

I was one of the people who set it up. I was also the person who helped brief the people who went to Cyprus to run Theta Management Liaison in Lanarca . Two couples - Mike and Marlene and Murray and his wife( who's name I have forgotten)

Please provide some actual IAS expenses then, and explain exactly where/how/what IAS donations are used.

Why? Just because you feel you wish to know? Provide one shred of proof that the iAS has paid for anything. It seems that you wish to believe one half of what gets said in briefings "IAS supports this and that" but don't wish to believe the other half about deposits and money. The simple fact is that it is ALL bullshit.

In 1985 the decision - from DM and the rest of the Board was that wherever possible IAS would be credited with "supporting" various things without actually paying out very much money- if any. The WHOLE intent was to get and keep as much money as possible. Period. And yes - just to answer the question - I was at the meeting because it was the one that rejected John Stannard's request for funding of a Scientology think tank in Washington DC.

But, to answer most of your question - IAS money goes to - in descending order and this is not an "all-inclusive" list 1) The operation of the membership system (cards, status award plaques, IMPACT magazine, promotional mailings) 2) The cost of fundraising 3) The administration costs of the accounts including the legal fees for lawyers like Arrevad 4) the costs of travel of the board 6) The cost of the annual event . Costs for grants are the last item and they are usually small. I cannot say whether any big items have been paid in the years since 1995 because I have no "inside" info any more. I doubt it but thats just my opinion.

As for the gold reference - that was always a huge, unsubstantiated rumor. I know you are one who believes vast gold reserves were around for many years and that COS invested primarily in gold. A source I know who worked closely with Hubbard for many years says this was always a rumor and not true. Realistically, there are probably some gold investments. IDK. Neither do you.

I am glad you know what I know - that being the case you could have answered your questions...

 

[RolandRB]

In 1985 the decision - from DM and the rest of the Board was that wherever possible IAS would be credited with "supporting" various things without actually paying out very much money- if any. The WHOLE intent was to get and keep as much money as possible. Period. And yes - just to answer the question - I was at the meeting because it was the one that rejected John Stannard's request for funding of a Scientology think tank in Washington DC.

But, to answer most of your question - IAS money goes to - in descending order and this is not an "all-inclusive" list 1) The operation of the membership system (cards, status award plaques, IMPACT magazine, promotional mailings) 2) The cost of fundraising 3) The administration costs of the accounts including the legal fees for lawyers like Arrevad 4) the costs of travel of the board 6) The cost of the annual event . Costs for grants are the last item and they are usually small. I cannot say whether any big items have been paid in the years since 1995 because I have no "inside" info any more. I doubt it but thats just my opinion.

So are you saying that the IAS was set up primarily to hoard money for the benefit of the Church and not much else of any comparable significance except to put on a show of it helping the Church and that it is unaccountable for the money collected?

How much money do you think they have stashed away?

 

[Mick Wenlock]

So are you saying that the IAS was set up primarily to hoard money for the benefit of the Church and not much else of any comparable significance except to put on a show of it helping the Church and that it is unaccountable for the money collected?

Yep. That is it in a nutshell.

Any money given from the IAS was (and I presume still is) only given so as to "prove" that the IAS is doing what it was supposed to most money is supposed to come from the church accounts.

 

[RolandRB]

Yep. That is it in a nutshell.

Any money given from the IAS was (and I presume still is) only given so as to "prove" that the IAS is doing what it was supposed to most money is supposed to come from the church accounts.

a) Is there charitable tax relief on IAS donations?

b) How much do you think they have stashed away in savings?

 

[Enthetan]

So are you saying that the IAS was set up primarily to hoard money for the benefit of the Church and not much else of any comparable significance except to put on a show of it helping the Church and that it is unaccountable for the money collected?

That's the whole point and purpose of the IAS. The Church is supposed to be a Church. With that status comes all sorts of government rules and regulations about inurement :

Non-profit organizations are subject to what is known as the nondistribution constraint. Simply stated, this means that non-profit organizations cannot distribute profits to those who control it. The nondistribution constraint is the fundamental distinction between non-profit organizations from for-profit organizations.

In the Internal Revenue Code, the nondistribution constraint is embodied in the prohibition against inurement. “Inurement” is an arcane term for “benefit.” The inurement prohibition forbids the use of the income or assets of a tax-exempt organization to directly or indirectly unduly benefit an individual or other person that has a close relationship with the organization or is able to exercise significant control over the organization.

The essence of the inurement proscription is found in the language of Code § 501(c)(3), which provides that no part of a 501(c)(3) organization’s net earnings can inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. Although this would clearly prohibit the distribution of dividends to those in control of the organization, the inurement prohibition is much broader than that in application. Most exempt organizations – including 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(6) organizations – are subject to the inurement prohibition.

The inurement restriction is absolute: An organization that violates this prohibition will not qualify (or will cease to qualify) for tax exemption regardless of whether it otherwise meets the appropriate statutory requirements for exemption. Because of the harsh nature of this rule, it has historically been enforced only in the most egregious circumstances.

For those who are interested, here's a long IRS document on the subject.

Put simply, if it could be proved that DM used Church funds for his (excessive) personal benefit, the Church's tax exempt status goes away, and legions of IRS auditors descend.

The IAS is under no such restrictions. When you send money to "IAS Administrations", you are sending it to an outfit based in Curacao. Now you understand why DM has been pushing so hard for people to contribute to IAS.

 

[RolandRB]

That's the whole point and purpose of the IAS. The Church is supposed to be a Church. With that status comes all sorts of government rules and regulations about inurement :


For those who are interested, here's a long IRS document on the subject.

Put simply, if it could be proved that DM used Church funds for his (excessive) personal benefit, the Church's tax exempt status goes away, and legions of IRS auditors descend.

The IAS is under no such restrictions. When you send money to "IAS Administrations", you are sending it to an outfit based in Curacao. Now you understand why DM has been pushing so hard for people to contribute to IAS.

So if I got this right then because the IAS is not a charity and the people donating have paid tax on it then there is no risk from the IRS or any other tax authority and that the Church leaders can do what they like with that money? And that those who donated have got nothing to complain about because they effectively chose to give away their money to the Church leaders? And as for what they denoted this money for then they were promised nothing so they have no comeback?

 

[Enthetan]

So if I got this right then because the IAS is not a charity and the people donating have paid tax on it then there is no risk from the IRS or any other tax authority and that the Church leaders can do what they like with that money? And that those who donated have got nothing to complain about because they effectively chose to give away their money to the Church leaders? And as for what they denoted this money for then they were promised nothing so they have no comeback?

You got it.

In the beginning, the story was that the IAS fund was there to "re-boot" Scn if something happened (like losing a massive lawsuit) that effectively shut down current Scn. And then it just grew beyond all reason.

Now, the money goes to an offshore corporation. There is no accounting. The money just goes offshore, and ultimately to God-knows-where. I'm going to guess once it goes offshore, it gets tossed from A to B to C to obfuscate what ultimately happens to it.

 

[GoNuclear]

You got it.

In the beginning, the story was that the IAS fund was there to "re-boot" Scn if something happened (like losing a massive lawsuit) that effectively shut down current Scn. And then it just grew beyond all reason.

Now, the money goes to an offshore corporation. There is no accounting. The money just goes offshore, and ultimately to God-knows-where. I'm going to guess once it goes offshore, it gets tossed from A to B to C to obfuscate what ultimately happens to it.

And now you know why I continually preach that folks should go out and start cults of their own!

Pete

 

[RolandRB]

You got it.

In the beginning, the story was that the IAS fund was there to "re-boot" Scn if something happened (like losing a massive lawsuit) that effectively shut down current Scn. And then it just grew beyond all reason.

Now, the money goes to an offshore corporation. There is no accounting. The money just goes offshore, and ultimately to God-knows-where. I'm going to guess once it goes offshore, it gets tossed from A to B to C to obfuscate what ultimately happens to it.

International Association of Suckers!

 

[RolandRB]

International Association of Suckers!

I was a lifetime member of the IAS. It didn't cost much. I was told then it was for a "war chest". But now it has gone up a thousand fold in price and all people get out of it is a certificate.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

l ron hubbard in 1953 founded three churches:

the church of scientology (CoS)

the church of spiritual technology (CST)

and...

the church of american science

the third church has never been significantly organized but the original intention was for it to be a christian church to deliver dianetic training and auditing to christians

all who read this are invited to muse upon what might be accomplished if COAS were to be organized as a judeo-christian universalist group

it might attract many very serious scientologists who are concerned about the conduct of CoS and CoS would be firing off some SERIOUS footbullets if it were to declare a church founded by lrh a suppressive group or to declare auditors or preclears suppressive for joining it

think about it...

 

[Gottabrain]

Well I have seen the current account balances and transfer figures from the accounts at KBL to Cyprus. Is that close enough?...

Of course. Thank you.

I am not trying to "discredit" you - I don;t care that much! You seem to keep assuming that I am basing my statements on some sort of press release from the CofS. So if I get a little irritated you might understand.

Yes, I did think that. Statements by some others were not based on true info. I also was irritated when you misquoted me. To reiterate - I've never seen any IAS dox like that, because IAS was not around during my stint at USGO, or even after I left AOLA and the SO. Thank you for clarifying.

I was part of the team that set up the IAS and set up the Administration in Cyprus. So I am not - when I refer to the time period from the start of the IAS until 1989 I am not talking about figures that were published for the benefit of the populace. In 1995 I got to talk to someone who had worked on the beginnings of the transfer of funds to the IAS trusts.

I am well aware of the billings done from orgs to lower orgs and the billings for FlagTraining for orgs but that really has no effect on the IAS monies.

So I based my estimate - and short of standing around with a calculator and bank statements that is the best we are going to be able to do from this remote a distance- on those figures.

Mick, thank you very much for providing the info on this and for letting me know where the info originated and why you know. That's all I was asking.

As for the gold comment - Brigatti showed me the reference in her office at the gatehouse. I don't remember the exact wordage cos I read it exactly once 34years ago. The main parts of it were a) investment has to be in a readily transferable form b) it has to have intrinsic value c) it needs to be convertible. The preferences were gold, jewels, hard currencies like Swiss Francs and Deutsch Marks and Dollars. There were some more remarks and recommendations. As I understood it from her comments they tried to keep it at around 80% in gold certificates and the rest was in various cash accounts..

Thank you.

I was one of the people who set it up. I was also the person who helped brief the people who went to Cyprus to run Theta Management Liaison in Lanarca . Two couples - Mike and Marlene and Murray and his wife( who's name I have forgotten)

As above, Mick. Thank you. Srsly.

Why? Just because you feel you wish to know? Provide one shred of proof that the iAS has paid for anything. It seems that you wish to believe one half of what gets said in briefings "IAS supports this and that" but don't wish to believe the other half about deposits and money. The simple fact is that it is ALL bullshit.

I don't wish to believe anything that COS or IAS states. That's just all the info I had. As for why - don't you know me better than that? The same reason any other activist here wants to know - because untangling the mess and providing the info to interested authorities will ultimately bring down this oppressive, criminal organization.

In 1985 the decision - from DM and the rest of the Board was that wherever possible IAS would be credited with "supporting" various things without actually paying out very much money- if any. The WHOLE intent was to get and keep as much money as possible. Period. And yes - just to answer the question - I was at the meeting because it was the one that rejected John Stannard's request for funding of a Scientology think tank in Washington DC.

But, to answer most of your question - IAS money goes to - in descending order and this is not an "all-inclusive" list 1) The operation of the membership system (cards, status award plaques, IMPACT magazine, promotional mailings) 2) The cost of fundraising 3) The administration costs of the accounts including the legal fees for lawyers like Arrevad 4) the costs of travel of the board 6) The cost of the annual event . Costs for grants are the last item and they are usually small. I cannot say whether any big items have been paid in the years since 1995 because I have no "inside" info any more. I doubt it but thats just my opinion.

I am glad you know what I know - that being the case you could have answered your questions...

This is extremely useful information, Mick. You know these Boards are read by various government investigatory groups and I am grateful you've posted it. To my knowledge, you haven't posted it before. Again, thank you.

No need for the snippy comment at the end, Mick. I've clearly stated what I know and do not know. Man, what a horror you started, setting up that IAS beast.

I believe (and this is my opinion only), that despite its initial setups and policies, that IAS monies have been getting spent or at the very least, used as securities from which to borrow. That is a personal belief, based on three very simple facts:

1) Flag, Freewinds and IAS have become not only the main sources of income for Scn in the world, but pretty much the only sources of serious cash inflow,

2) Scn legal and similar bills to fight us are out the roof.

3) You have confirmed my suspicions that the IAS is operating as an illegal, criminal charity and hides its monies through international accounts, transfers and investments. This may sound outrageously simplistic, but -

Criminals can't hang onto stolen goods and other things obtained illegally. Sound wild? Think about it. Criminal money keeps vacillating between individuals, investments, it's always all over the place. They can't hold onto it.

That leaves lots of openings - accounts wise - for someone else to take the money and also very easy to cover their tracks. Cypress accounts getting hot? Must transfer money. Choose a dozen places, then transfer to a dozen more. Then call it spent in fees or losses between transactions. TOO easy. SO many holes in the pipes when money must be hidden.

I once met a man who was one of those skanky, lowlifes who stole kids' bikes. Why? Because he'd never had one as a kid. The longest he'd ever been able to keep a stolen bike before it was stolen again was two weeks. Usually someone else stole the stolen bike from him within days. He said he stole near a hundred bikes in his life.

Huh. That was an eye-opener. Druggies, dealers - all these sort of predators kind of end up the same way - can't hold onto the money.

I'm no eternal optimist, far from it. But I believe the IAS is so incredibly skanky and toxic, that governments (and heaps of individuals) are anxious to bust it up and claim the booty. IAS can't spend their money easily without leaving traces? Oh what a shame. Someone else will, then.