Is this all dm's fault??

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
If I understand correctly, the frustration that many people feel towards Rathbun is because he hasn't accepted responsibility for all the attacks he orchestrated against Scientology critics and escapees, before he left.

That he is now the target of OSA attacks (actually a very watered-down, ineffectual shadow of what OSA used to manage) does not win him any sympathy, merely a smirk at the thought that the boot is on the other foot now. Further claims the he has the power/information to bring down the Scientology pseudoreligion invite no sympathy at all, merely a frustration along the lines of "Well go on then... do it."

The idea that Miscavige is the only thing wrong with Scientology today is a misunderstanding that disregards historical fact: the RPF, the disastrous Operation Snow White, Fair Game, R2-45, Space Opera... an amazing amount of that which is stupid and evil in Scientology came straight from the pen of the Fat Man Hisself. Being still a victim of Scientology, Rathbun is unwilling to admit this. Any anger towards him is simply an expression of distaste for his goal: a world in which the madness of Hubbardism triumphs, having used the simpleton Miscavige as a scapegoat and set himself up as the replacement. (It's true that Miscavige is a drunk and he attacks people... but Hubbard himself was the original source of the malignancy at the heart of Scientology.)

Being the creature that he is, Rathbun believes that the end (ie him in control) justifies any means. I'm not angry towards him, personally... but I wouldn't trust him an inch.

I check for new material/read the Rathbun blog daily. I am definitely OUT, no longer a Scilon, but I am still a bit sympathetic towards Rathbun and Rinder. They both pretty much spent their entire adult working lives in the cult. There is the issue of weather or not Marty groveled sufficiently upon leaving, same with Mike, to atone for the things they did while in the cult. I personally don't concern myself with that. As best I can tell, Rathbun is not even agressively marketing anything. All he is doing is allowing DM to drive people his way. He has a boutique, niche market clientelle of ex Cof$ clams that arrive looking for high end, connoseur quality clamtech without all of the high pressure redging/invals/evals/shit-4-service/shit-4-auditing that is now what is happening at Flag. I'm sure there are other similar groups out there doing the same, left over from the mass exodus of the early 1980's when DM worked with the HubTurd to squeeze the mission network for cash and take them over. But they are few and far between. If Cof$ is put out of business, these groups will have to do their own recruiting. This will be difficult at best.

Pete
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I think the question that i am now trying to ask is, if rathburn and rinder are to blame for anything then wouldnt it make sense that the people under him were just as much at fault, and the people under them are also responsible.. its a chain of abuse and bullying. rinder and rathburn bullied people into bullying others.. arent those people just as bad? With the exception of hubbard and miscavige it seems that either everone is to blame or nobody, but to pick out a few seems unfair. I dont know.. its just a thought..

Each and every individual is responsible for their own actions. The fact that 'they were only following orders' is no defence.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Yep i get that they have done very bad things.. So what would be the correct thing for them to do now?

To provide those they actively attacked with the information needed to seek redress.

They are right to be criticizing Miscavige - he is the one leading the gang. BUt they have some people that they need to extend a helping hand to.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Each and every individual is responsible for their own actions. The fact that 'they were only following orders' is no defence.

AKA "The Nuremberg Defence" and I agree, generally speaking. But would you say full-on, long-term Scientology KoolAid slurpers are responsible for their own actions? I get frustrated here when I see Exes kicking themselves, often for being "so stupid" for taking part in the actions that they did. My frustration comes from the fact that in realising they did stupid things, they are not, in fact, stupid. Stupid people usually don't know they were stupid and continue to do the same stupid things.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
AKA "The Nuremberg Defence" and I agree, generally speaking. But would you say full-on, long-term Scientology KoolAid slurpers are responsible for their own actions? I get frustrated here when I see Exes kicking themselves, often for being "so stupid" for taking part in the actions that they did. My frustration comes from the fact that in realising they did stupid things, they are not, in fact, stupid. Stupid people usually don't know they were stupid and continue to do the same stupid things.

True enough, and then we are into case-by-case mitigating factors, such as whether they did what they did under duress, etc. It's very complicated.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
True enough, and then we are into case-by-case mitigating factors, such as whether they did what they did under duress, etc. It's very complicated.

Wouldn't it have been great to see a solid insanity plea or sentencing mitigation in the Rex Fowler, OTVIII murderer, case.

(RIP Thomas Ciancio)
 

TEoS

Patron with Honors
"Is this all dm's fault"

No. Hubbard's doctrines are responsible.

Scientology's current problems are the result of following a criminal conman's BS to the letter.
 

apocalyptic

Patron with Honors
I have searched through previous threads to try and find my answers and not waste anyone’s time but there are still some things that I don’t understand, and I’m hoping someone will be kind enough to explain.

With all due respect (assuming such is due), every question you pose below has been hashed out and rehashed out numerous times by various individuals over the course of a number of years, right here on the ESMB. Seemingly your searching was lacking (at best).

We (being Apocalyptic) could, if we were inclined, list each of your questions and refer you back to the prior ESMB posts that would provide you with various answers (i.e. opinions). However Xenubaby, it seems it would be far more productive (if not at least honest & sincere) to have 'you' provide us with 'your answers' to the questions you posed to us. For the simple reason rarely if ever does an individual generate questions (the likes of yours) in a mental vacuum (of pre-conceived speculation/opinion).

Rephrased: Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Fair enough?

My first question is about DM... . If he stepped down, or was removed from his leadership roll could scientology be reformed?

#1. What do 'you' think about that?

Are all the bad things that have come out of scientology due to miscavige?

#2. What do 'you' think about that?

What is the deal with Marty rathburn and Mike rinder..? People seem very angry with them and I understand that they also did a lot of bad things whilst in scientology, but then so have a lot of other people who have left the organisation. What makes mark and Marty worse?

#3. What do 'you' think about that?

From what I understand ‘Freezone’ is what the independent scientologists call themselves, is that right?

#4. What do 'you' think about that?

What confuses me is that from what I have read Hubbard was PROVEN a liar. If this is the case, why do people believe in his theories or whatever you would like to call it?

#5. What do 'you' think about that?

Surely if he is a dishonest man then that shakes the foundation that scientology is built on.

#6. What do 'you' think about that?

******************

You will find a number of great hearts and great minds on the ESMB board. Evidenced by the replies you've already received.

What will be your reply? (to your own questions) Xenubaby.

Great Hearts and Great Minds would like to know.

Thanks,

Apocalyptic
 

freethinker

Sponsor
I havn't read the other responses but I'll give you mine.

There is a line in a movie where Morpheus says, "No one can be told what the Matrix is, you have to see it for your self."

There are those who took the red pill and see the Matrix for what it is.

Then there are those who took the blue pill and all was as it was.

Here there are some who took the purple pill. That's a mix of the red and blue(not in the movie).

Those who take the purple pill see some value in the Matrix but the evil Mr. Smith is the one who has corrupted the Matrix and wants to suppress all that live there.

It's not until the last movie that you meet the creator of the Matrix. You don't think this guy is so bad, it's Mr. Smith that has ruined it all.

So some have taken what they consider good about the Matrix and have started their own based on the earlier version but without the Smith types and the doctrine that man is useless and serves no purpose.

But in the movie the creator of the Matrix admitted that he had started earlier versions of the Matrix and they had all failed and came to the same end.

Your questions will be answered according to how each individual views the Matrix.

The only true way you can know is to see it for yourself. I don't recommend that.

So from the plethera of responses you will recieve you will have to discern for yourself what rings true because you'll get pluses and minuses and in betweens.

Hope this helps.

Hey guys I have some questions about DM and scientology in general...First thing I should tell you is I’m very shy which doesn’t translate well onto a message board so please be patient with me.
I have searched through previous threads to try and find my answers and not waste anyone’s time but there are still some things that I don’t understand, and I’m hoping someone will be kind enough to explain.
My first question is about DM... . If he stepped down, or was removed from his leadership roll could scientology be reformed? Are all the bad things that have come out of scientology due to miscavige?
What is the deal with Marty rathburn and Mike rinder..? People seem very angry with them and I understand that they also did a lot of bad things whilst in scientology, but then so have a lot of other people who have left the organisation. What makes mark and Marty worse? Or maybe they are not seen as worse, that’s what I’m asking?
From what I understand ‘Freezone’ is what the independent scientologists call themselves, is that right? I don’t mean ANY disrespect when I ask this next question; I am genuinely interested in the answer... What confuses me is that from what I have read Hubbard was PROVEN a liar. If this is the case, why do people believe in his theories or whatever you would like to call it? Surely if he is a dishonest man then that shakes the foundation that scientology is built on. Isn’t this something that is plain to see or am I missing something.
Thank you for your time
Sending my love to everyone here xoxo
 

cayce-case-um

Patron with Honors
... The idea that Miscavige is the only thing wrong with Scientology today is a misunderstanding that disregards historical fact: the RPF, the disastrous Operation Snow White, Fair Game, R2-45, Space Opera... an amazing amount of that which is stupid and evil in Scientology came straight from the pen of the Fat Man Hisself...

When I was in I had to tune out the offensive things to focus on the things that seemed true and value. The things I had to tune out included:

-- Scientific falsehoods: LRH had no understanding of radiation, different kinds of radiation, speed of light, relativity and observational proofs of relativity, etc. He claimed the space planes to Teegeeack made it in some six weeks. If he really knew what he was talking about, he would have explained the technology that made that travel time possible.

-- Lack of falsifiability or denial of falsifiability: Atom bombs dropped around volcanoes on earth. Some of the volcanoes did not exist or were in different places 75 M years ago. And where is the possible evidence of such explosions, such as the mineral trinitite which is found in NM. And why the big deal with atom bombs -- he did not even foresee the ugly bigger brother of the a-bomb -- the h-bomb -- a thermonuclear device that functioned on fusion (a-bombs worked on fission). Surely Xenu (MPBUH) would have known about h-bombs.

-- Claims that "civilization" has done nothing for humans (he claims in a video lecture). In fact civilization eradicated polio and smallpox, gave clean drinking water to millions if not billions, identified the cause of bacterial and viral diseases, created antibiotics, launched the age of information and space travel, doubled the human lifespan from not that many millenia ago, and much more. Could Scn even scientifically document that clears had statistically significantly longer life spans or less disease? I fear it is probably the opposite -- shorter than average lifespan and more disease.

-- Sheer illogic: the world was going to be cleared before 2000 or destroyed in a nuclear war. Neither happened. Berlin Wall came down because of OTs -- I guess those same OTs screwed up when they let the Taliban take over Afghanistan. Maybe Dave sent them to the RFP for Eurocentrism? The bizarre projection of Scn Neo-Nazistic totalitarianism onto Germany, which has more safeguards than anywhere against a resurgence of Naziism. The hatred, irrational, of government, IRS, psychology, and psychiatry.

What seems clear to me at this point is that:
-- Hubbard couldn't get the medical / mental help he needed in the 40s and asked for (in a letter to VA) -- so psychiatry became his arch enemy, especially when he began to compete for the mental health industry's business
-- Hubbard couldn't make it in the US Navy, so he created his own pretend, paramilitary Navy
-- He was a hypocrite of the worst sort -- banning abortions in DMSMH but endorsing them for SO members; decrying drugs but using them himself -- really so typical of cult leaders
-- He had some good ideas -- but many were lifted from others. He wove in so many falsehoods into his story of himself and Dianetics/Scn that there is little that should not be taken with a big grain of salt
 

xenubaby

Patron
With all due respect (assuming such is due), every question you pose below has been hashed out and rehashed out numerous times by various individuals over the course of a number of years, right here on the ESMB. Seemingly your searching was lacking (at best).

We (being Apocalyptic) could, if we were inclined, list each of your questions and refer you back to the prior ESMB posts that would provide you with various answers (i.e. opinions). However Xenubaby, it seems it would be far more productive (if not at least honest & sincere) to have 'you' provide us with 'your answers' to the questions you posed to us. For the simple reason rarely if ever does an individual generate questions (the likes of yours) in a mental vacuum (of pre-conceived speculation/opinion).

apocalyptic im not sure what i have said to offend you. Is this message board not here for people to ask questions? I dont know the answers, i have never been in scientology, im here to learn. Yes i may have opinions but they are not based on talking to actual people which is what im doing now. Is that ok?
 

xenubaby

Patron
For the simple reason rarely if ever does an individual generate questions (the likes of yours) in a mental vacuum (of pre-conceived speculation/opinion).

sorry i may be a little dumb but i dont understand what you are trying to say.
 

TrevAnon

Big List researcher
It's for sure that this message board (among others) also exists to answer questions. There is always someone who will answer. That said, there is also nothing wrong in educating yourself by reading what's already on the net. http://www.xenu.net/ might be a good introduction, and I'm sure people will give other links.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Is this all dm's fault??

NO! It is NOT all DM's fault!

Hubbard wrote the playbook that DM closely follows. THAT is the way it is. Of course, nutters and true believers can choose to imagine and believe otherwise.
 

apocalyptic

Patron with Honors
apocalyptic im not sure what i have said to offend you.

No offense taken.

Is this message board not here for people to ask questions? I dont know the answers, i have never been in scientology, im here to learn.

Fair enough.

Yes i may have opinions but they are not based on talking to actual people which is what im doing now. Is that ok?

Sure. You're asking people for their opinions here is perfectly ok. We're simply doing the same thing with you, asking for your opinions here. The fact you have never been in scientology might make for opinions that are refreshingly unbiased, and thus of some educational value for us all.

For your general information the Church of Scientology has a long and storied history of sending covert operatives into various anti-COS groups for the sole purpose of gathering intelligence. Such operatives either tend to have never been in scientology themselves, and are merely 'curious' as to the attitudes and opinions of the groups participants. Or conversely, they tend to appear to be over-the-top raving-mad critics that swear their aligence to the eternal destruction & damnation of all things scientology, both pre and post hubbards demise.

Your opening post reminded us of the former. That's all.

Our asking for 'your' personal opinions/answers to the questions you posed to the board does not strike us as being unreasonable. With the 'unbiased' flavor of them being a bonus.

Apocalyptic
 

pollywog

Patron with Honors
Apocalyptic and Xenubaby: here's my two cents as a never-been scilon. First, Nothing is ever any one person's fault. Hubbard was a con and mentally unstable. I think Danger Mouse is also mentally unstable but I cannot really figure out if he too is a con. I think it is more likely that he grew up in this cult and is too far gone for any sort of normalcy. He is a Napolean. In short (forgive the really bad pun) he'll never be a "wog" which is sad because "wog" is a far better existence than being tethered to some bizarre-ass belief system (apologies). I don't contribute much here because I like to lurk, but if you really want to know what this NON scio thinks, I think the whole thing is and always was a scam. I'll run back to my lurking now.
 
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