Is this all dm's fault??

apocalyptic

Patron with Honors
Apocalyptic and Xenubaby: here's my two cents as a never-been scilon. First, Nothing is ever any one person's fault. Hubbard was a con and mentally unstable. I think Danger Mouse is also mentally unstable but I cannot really figure out if he too is a con. I think it is more likely that he grew up in this cult and is too far gone for any sort of normalcy. He is a Napolean. In short (forgive the really bad pun) he'll never be a "wog" which is sad because "wog" is a far better existence than being tethered to some bizarre-ass belief system (apologies). I don't contribute much here because I like to lurk, but if you really want to know what this NON scio thinks, I think the whole thing is and always was a scam. I'll run back to my lurking now.

Nice post pollywog.

Love your distinction between being 'mentally unstable' and being 'a con'. And, your (short) 'pun' deserves far more praise, than apologies.

For the record, the major difference between Napoleon and Miscaviage is that Napoleon was born in Corsica to parents of noble Genoese ancestry and trained as an artillery officer in mainland France, and Miscaviage wasn't.

Touche'.

Apocalyptic
 

Terril park

Sponsor
apocalyptic;597210 For your general information the Church of Scientology has a long and storied history of sending covert operatives into various anti-COS groups for the sole purpose of gathering intelligence. Such operatives either tend to have never been in scientology themselves said:
Note that this statement that CO$ has sent covert operatives here and there who were not scientologists is nonsense. I suspect the poster screwed up on that.

" I'm a bus driver and it is my mission to infiltrate anti scn groups."
Lol!

Xenubaby it would probably take around two years to mainly absorb
all data about scn , Hubbard and CO$. And then one goes to graduate school. :)

One can pick up a lot much sooner, but will still need to explore further.

Thats my opinion and experience have been a scientologist for at least 4 decades. Which is somewhat of a good head start!

Ask away and don't be worried by people trying to negate such
questioning. :)
 

xenubaby

Patron
I have searched through previous threads to try and find my answers and not waste anyone’s time but there are still some things that I don’t understand, and I’m hoping someone will be kind enough to explain.
I have spent many hours searching these forums, I am sorry if my search was lacking (at best). The reason I didn’t originally state my opinions is because- what the hell do I know?! The people on this board have clearly had more experience with scientology than I have most of you have lived it. I have lots of opinions but they change all the time because I’m still learning.
With all due respect (assuming such is due), every question you pose below has been hashed out and rehashed out numerous times by various individuals over the course of a number of years, right here on the ESMB. Seemingly your searching was lacking (at best).

We (being Apocalyptic) could, if we were inclined, list each of your questions and refer you back to the prior ESMB posts that would provide you with various answers (i.e. opinions). However Xenubaby, it seems it would be far more productive (if not at least honest & sincere) to have 'you' provide us with 'your answers' to the questions you posed to us. For the simple reason rarely if ever does an individual generate questions (the likes of yours) in a mental vacuum (of pre-conceived speculation/opinion).

Rephrased: Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Fair enough?
Yep that is fair enough although I think the way you said it was mean.
My first question is about DM... . If he stepped down, or was removed from his leadership roll could scientology be reformed?
#1. What do 'you' think about that?
I don’t think scientology could be reformed even if DM stepped down or was removed because it is based on Hubbard’s ideas and I think Hubbard was unbalanced.
Are all the bad things that have come out of scientology due to miscavige?
#2. What do 'you' think about that?
No I don’t think it can all be put on him although he is at the top of the food chain- or should I say abuse chain-everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions.
What is the deal with Marty rathburn and Mike rinder..? People seem very angry with them and I understand that they also did a lot of bad things whilst in scientology, but then so have a lot of other people who have left the organization. What makes mark and Marty worse?
#3. What do 'you' think about that?
I genuinely didn’t understand why m&m receive so much negative attention. All I have to go on is the BBC panorama documentaries and they seemed fine, but people have explained reasons for possible frustrations and anger in their posts and I understand it now.
From what I understand ‘Freezone’ is what the independent scientologists call themselves, is that right?
#4. What do 'you' think about that?
Again I think you are just being mean.
What confuses me is that from what I have read Hubbard was PROVEN a liar. If this is the case, why do people believe in his theories or whatever you would like to call it?
#5. What do 'you' think about that?
I think people believe in his theories because when they first come across his writings it is through scientologists who will of course promote him and as people have explained, once you are in scientology you are told to stay away from the internet and media, and you are putting your time and money and your whole life into what this guy is saying, so as time goes by it must be harder and harder to admit you may have made a mistake.
Surely if he is a dishonest man then that shakes the foundation that scientology is built on.

#6. What do 'you' think about that?
Well yes I think scientology is a scam.

I appreciate you wanting my opinions, and also that you might get those osa guys or other crazies lurking here but I think you are being a little tough on someone who is just curious and has good intentions. I am genuinely shocked and appalled at the abuses that go on in scientology and I’m appalled at myself for living in a bubble and thinking that scientology was some hip celebrity religion for so many years. It upsets me that more people are not aware of what scientology is because as long as people are not aware they are still victims that could fall into this trap.
 

xenubaby

Patron
Another reson scientology interests me is that i am a very open person, very willing to giving anyone and everyone a chance. I often feel like a mug. If the scientologists got to me first with their little personality tests i would have totally bought into it and that pisses me off.
 

apocalyptic

Patron with Honors
Note that this statement that CO$ has sent covert operatives here and there who were not scientologists is nonsense. I suspect the poster screwed up on that.

" I'm a bus driver and it is my mission to infiltrate anti scn groups."
Lol!

T., You either grossly-misread (or conveniently-misunderstood) the sentence you scoff at in the post above. To be sure: the I AM 'NOT A SCIENTOLOGIST' is a bonafide calling card of Scientologist shills and Scientology covert intelligence-gathering operatives worldwide. In public and in private. And has been for years. Surely you can't be so dense as to deny it. We trust you merely misunderstood. If so please correct your misunderstanding, with Xenubaby (for everyone's sake). Thanks.

Xenubaby it would probably take around two years to mainly absorb
all data about scn , Hubbard and CO$. And then one goes to graduate school. :)

Yea, sure, Xenubaby just google 'Hubbard is God' and follow the bouncing internet ball until you find yourself being audited by the likes of Terrils hero's. It'll save you at least 2 years of research.

One can pick up a lot much sooner, but will still need to explore further.

Damn. You're on a roll here T. We smell fresh meat. Is somebody hungry?

That's my opinion and experience have been a scientologist for at least 4 decades. Which is somewhat of a good head start!

That's right Xenubaby. And if you dedicate 'the next 40 years of your life' to the study of scientology, you will find yourself with a 'good head start' too.

Incredible.

Apocalyptic



Ask away and don't be worried by people trying to negate such
questioning. :)[/QUOTE]

Amen
 

apocalyptic

Patron with Honors
Another reson scientology interests me is that i am a very open person, very willing to giving anyone and everyone a chance. I often feel like a mug. If the scientologists got to me first with their little personality tests i would have totally bought into it and that pisses me off.

Your anger is evidence of the presence of higher consciousness. Called love.

Thanks xenubaby.

Apocalyptic
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
..snip.. It upsets me that more people are not aware of what scientology is because as long as people are not aware they are still victims that could fall into this trap.

Most people don't know much about Scientology and don't particularly care. It is a tiny cult and unless they know someone in it, why would they care?
But by talking and writing you can get the word out to potentially vulnerable people. It is surprisingly easy.
One of the easiest ways to do it is using scientology celebrities. These are people that Joe Public DO "know".

All it takes is for one person to ask if you saw eg Tom Cruise's latest movie. You don't have to be hardcore frothing at the mouth anti, just mention you don't think his association with scientology is doing him any favours. Then answer the questions. There will always be questions.

And don't think it is useless because you only shared with one person. You will never how how it has spread from there.

You have asked questions on this board, that other people may ask.
One day someone might type in "Is this all dm's fault" into Google and find this thread, this message board. It might save a person or a family a world of stress and pain.

In 2008 people did not want to publish anything negative against the church. It was a big scary malicious entity, best left well alone. Now it is hard to find an article on a Sci celeb online that doesn't make snide remarks about e-meters, auditing, xenu and aliens. If the article doesn't, then you can bet that the comment section will.

All you have to do is learn what you can and communicate it without emotion or exaggeration. In this church's case, the truth is astounding enough for people to stop and take note.
 

xenubaby

Patron
Most people don't know much about Scientology and don't particularly care. It is a tiny cult and unless they know someone in it, why would they care?
But by talking and writing you can get the word out to potentially vulnerable people. It is surprisingly easy.
One of the easiest ways to do it is using scientology celebrities. These are people that Joe Public DO "know".

All it takes is for one person to ask if you saw eg Tom Cruise's latest movie. You don't have to be hardcore frothing at the mouth anti, just mention you don't think his association with scientology is doing him any favours. Then answer the questions. There will always be questions.

And don't think it is useless because you only shared with one person. You will never how how it has spread from there.

You have asked questions on this board, that other people may ask.
One day someone might type in "Is this all dm's fault" into Google and find this thread, this message board. It might save a person or a family a world of stress and pain.

In 2008 people did not want to publish anything negative against the church. It was a big scary malicious entity, best left well alone. Now it is hard to find an article on a Sci celeb online that doesn't make snide remarks about e-meters, auditing, xenu and aliens. If the article doesn't, then you can bet that the comment section will.

All you have to do is learn what you can and communicate it without emotion or exaggeration. In this church's case, the truth is astounding enough for people to stop and take note.

Thanks anonomog, i dont always have the words to express myself so i like to pass on my books to friends and tell them to pass them when when they are done :)
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes and No, it is Slappy's fault - YES - he is the leader and is taking advantage of his position of power - slapping people, unrealistic goals enforced on the minions, Idle Morgues, Supah Powah, Lisa McPherson and on and on and on. He is a demon and can't be stopped until he is dead and Scientology is gone!

No - Lafatty Hubbturd was a demented, deranged, psychopathic liar, narcissist, snake oil salesman, con artist and the tech is arranged to destroy everyone in the Cult. Slappy is the product of "doing" Scientology for 32 years - it creates monsters and he is right up there with Hitler, Stalin, Hussein and other Dictator's. David McSlappy is a Cult leader and the Organization is a REGIME controlling everyone so that the REGIME survives but the people do not!

Scientology is a CULT and everyone that enters the doors of the devil will be harmed in some huge and significant way. No one flourishes and prospers overall, even the CULT. The buildings are empty, the public knows Scientology is a CULT and it is spiraling down the tubes!

Down with the Cult of Scientology! Down with Slappy McSavage! The only safe place on the planet is anywhere but inside the Cult!
The sooner the Cult of Scientology collapses - the better for humanity.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Yes and No, it is Slappy's fault - YES - he is the leader and is taking advantage of his position of power - slapping people, unrealistic goals enforced on the minions, Idle Morgues, Supah Powah, Lisa McPherson and on and on and on. He is a demon and can't be stopped until he is dead and Scientology is gone!

Agreed!

No - Lafatty Hubbturd was a demented, deranged, psychopathic liar, narcissist, snake oil salesman, con artist and the tech is arranged to destroy everyone in the Cult.

Agreed, for the most part, with only minor clarifications!

Slappy is the product of "doing" Scientology for 32 years - it creates monsters and he is right up there with Hitler, Stalin, Hussein and other Dictator's. David McSlappy is a Cult leader and the Organization is a REGIME controlling everyone so that the REGIME survives but the people do not!

Now, I have the view that THAT is an exaggeration. Here's why.

"Up there with Hitler, Stalin, Hussein"? Seriously? No foolin'? Cripes, even Hubbard himself doesn't come ANYWHERE even close or near to that Holy Trinity of Terror.

Example from Nazi Germany - SS group enters the top floor apartment of a Jewish family, shoots the older son who resisted, herds the mother and two kids into the hall, beats the father senseless while putting out cigarette butts on his face (because he had been somewhat vocally critical about the Nazis), and tosses the grandmother right over the balcony since she is too old to help and contribute in a productive manner. (gotta keep that exchange in)

Example from Stalin - umm, he killed everybody and anybody who could possibly cause him trouble, and probably was responsible for the deaths of 50 million people (not including those tortured, or mentally and emotionally harmed as a result of someone they KNEW being killed or tortured).

Example of Hussein - some fellow is reported by a friend to the Republican Guard for saying a slightly critical comment to another about Saddam. Saddam is busy today so, since the offender has a really cute sister, Saddam lets his son Uday "handle the matter". Uday brutally rapes, mutilates and leaves the girl to die, after first taking the offender to a place to be slowly dipped in a vat of acid.

Your comment doesn't only grossly exaggerate degree, it also ignores frequency and volume. First, in terms of degree, what and how it was done in these political regimes was FAR more physically, mentally and emotionally brutal than anything Hubbard instigated (except for possibly a FEW instances). But, there is no comparison at all with the MANY examples possible from the past of Hitler, Stalin and Hussein. Second, in terms of frequency and volume, the atrocities were much more common and involved VERY MANY MORE PEOPLE.

If there is some Akashic Record, or an astral plane that somehow "stores" the sum total of a group's or race's "pain and suffering", these little bundles of "entheta" involving Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein are MUCH LARGER, more intense, deeper, and brutally UNDESIRABLE than the absolute worse of Scientology. In probably one day of Stalin, the combined physical, emotional and mental pain and anguish caused by the man probably beats out ALL of Scientology's over its entire existence.

For example, from the files of Hitler, watch your baby being torn from your wife's arms, being tossed on the ground, as your wife is held screaming and looking on in absolute terror, and stomped on with heavy boots until dead - crying the whole time, and looking at you the whole time wondering why you haven't done anything to stop what was happening to beautiful 3-year old Madeline. Now, I know being separated from a child or family member HURTS, my son is disconnected form me, and has been for 10 years, BUT I would MUCH rather have him alive and being the probably temporary dupe of a mind control cult, than to him BEING DEAD by the likes of Stalin, Hitler or Hussein! :duh:

Do you see the difference? I think most people do.

Now YES, there ARE certain similarities in terms of control, refusal to allow criticism, threats of severe repercussions, and carefully executed "mind control". Hubbard figured out a way to exert his control without resorting, at least most of the time, to REAL physical violence, torture and murder. Now, the incidents of slapping with DM, while "not a good thing", have NO similarity to tossing grandma out a window or dipping Billy in a vat of battery acid.

Also, and this is a KEY point, the idiots who get slapped by Miscavige CHOOSE TO BE THERE! Anybody can walk out the door at anytime - if they really want to. The problem is that on some level they buy into the Scientology charade so much that they CHOOSE to stay and reap the nonsnese of the Sea Org at top levels (they are "dedicated" on "on purpose". And, again, Granda or baby Madeline had NO CHOICE. The only ones in the Sea Org who didn't have a choice were the kids raised in it - but the differences are still momumental.

Yes, Scientology is set up to survive itself, and it uses up/wastes others along the way. The people though, for the most part are still ALIVE and have most of their body parts when they get through Scientology. Their friends and family are still alive, and haven't been subjected to hot pokers in the eyes or elctrodes to the genital (even if some are "metaphorically" dead through disconnection).


Scientology is a CULT and everyone that enters the doors of the devil will be harmed in some huge and significant way. No one flourishes and prospers overall, even the CULT. The buildings are empty, the public knows Scientology is a CULT and it is spiraling down the tubes!

"Doors of the devil"? Does that have something to do with one of George Bush's "evil doers"?

Down with the Cult of Scientology! Down with Slappy McSavage! The only safe place on the planet is anywhere but inside the Cult!

The only safe place any where on Earth is outside of Scientology? I know you didn't mean THAT!

What about the 4-year child who was just incinerated in a car bomb on the West Bank. He wasn't involved with Scientology, and his life didn't turn out too well.

What about the 14-year old African boy who died because he got a severe infection in the stump where his left arm used to be (before the tribal lord chopped it off "to make a point")? He was outside of "the cult" too.

Shall I go on?

Calm down a little.


The sooner the Cult of Scientology collapses - the better for humanity.

Well, I think when you say something like the above sentence, it is again an exaggeration. And, it is not a little exaggeration. In truth, Scientology has such a tiny impact on the world and on most people. It is a little tiny pimple on the wrinkly ass of Man. It does not have that much of an impact on "humanity".

Now, yes, for sure, it would better if it weren't there to sucker and take advantage of a certain type of dupe. Personally, I will give a hearty "whoopie" when Miscavige is gone, and when the Church of Scientology is no longer existing in any form where it can continue to harm people by applying Hubbard's dumbass policies, orders and directives. But, keep it all in perspective.
 
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Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yep i get that they have done very bad things.. So what would be the correct thing for them to do now?

They need to make up the damage until we like them! We will be the judge of that...selling "the real Scientology" is not making up the damage at all...it is just a justification of the life they lived whilst in the Cult...trying to force some sense into the senseless lives. The right thing to do is to bring down the Cult, get honest and straight and quit trying to Sell Scientology as something useful that works. It is mind control and it destroys more than it helps. There is nothing spiritual nor religious about it! NOTHING! Come clean about Blubbard - he was a drug using psychopath that made his victims smile from his charm before he slit their throats! :angry:
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, I think when you say something like the above sentence, it is again an exaggeration. And, it is not a little exaggeration. In truth, Scientology has such a tiny impact on the world and on most people. It is a little tiny pimple on the wrinkly ass of Man. It does not have that much of an impact on "humanity".

Now, yes, for sure, it would better if it weren't there to sucker and take advantage of a certain type of dupe. Personally, I will give a hearty "whoopie" when Miscavige is gone, and when the Church of Scientology is no longer existing in any form where it can continue to harm people by applying Hubbard's dumbass policies, orders and directives. But, keep it all in perspective.
We certainly can agree to disagree! This is a religion that has ruined thousands of people's lives and if it were to become the fastest growing religion - Oye VE! The difference between Hitler, Stalin and Hussein and Scientology is the former does not SELL SPRITUAL FREEDOM! They are governmental heads selling something else...and most of the people have no choice of their power. Scientology sells spritual freedom at a heft price, it lies, kills, extorts and bribes its parishoner's and that, to me, is not an exaggeration! I rest my case! We will disagree on this topic and that is ok.
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, I think when you say something like the above sentence, it is again an exaggeration. And, it is not a little exaggeration. In truth, Scientology has such a tiny impact on the world and on most people. It is a little tiny pimple on the wrinkly ass of Man. It does not have that much of an impact on "humanity".

Now, yes, for sure, it would better if it weren't there to sucker and take advantage of a certain type of dupe. Personally, I will give a hearty "whoopie" when Miscavige is gone, and when the Church of Scientology is no longer existing in any form where it can continue to harm people by applying Hubbard's dumbass policies, orders and directives. But, keep it all in perspective.

Hi Gad - heh, thanks for the inval!:ohmy:

We certainly can agree to disagree! Maybe you need to start at the beginning of ESMB and read the postings again. WTF?
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Hi Gad - heh, thanks for the inval!:ohmy:

It wasn't inval - I simply made a few points. If you "take it as inval", well then that is your thing, and not mine. :confused2:

Viewpoints that differ from your own do not have to be viewed as or seen as "disagreements" - unless you choose to.

We certainly can agree to disagree!

I won't/don't do any such thing. I stated my view, and you can accept it or not accept it as you choose. Other than that ESMB is a free-for-all. And, you can post whatever you want. The readers always decide for themselves anyway.

Maybe you need to start at the beginning of ESMB and read the postings again. WTF?

Yeah, that must be it. I am making a huge pot of coffee, will be starting tonight at the beginning of ESMB, and I will read it all again, just as you suggest! :thumbsup:
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
An almost perfect analogy of Hubbard's creation~ http://gizmodo.com/5916683/the-experimental-french-aircraft-that-wasnt

original.jpg


gizmodo quote said:
On it's ninth and final attempt, the aircraft almost accomplished its mission, but only "wild oscillations" and "horizontal acceleration" resulted, causing the pilot to eject (and suffer serious injuries), while the craft burned up.

'LRon has left the building.'~ DM

:happydance:
 

opahgirl

Patron
From Xenubaby: "What confuses me is that from what I have read Hubbard was PROVEN a liar. If this is the case, why do people believe in his theories or whatever you would like to call it? Surely if he is a dishonest man then that shakes the foundation that scientology is built on. Isn’t this something that is plain to see or am I missing something." Hi Xenubaby, I hope this helps to answer your question. Here is how they roll in the cult: When a scientologist dares to face the truth (internet, facts unknown to general scientologists (hidden from them, actually)...they are, quite simply, punished. The whole process is made to appear subtle and reasonable but it is real brainwashing. If someone who is "in" voices a disagreement with Hubbard, then the punishment begins and it goes like this.... Someone talks to them to find out their disagreement. This someone may seem genuinely interested in what they have to say. But they are not...they are on a mission...handle this guy and make him see the light (dark) or put him through the proper ringer so this eventually happens. The person "listening" to the guy will then write a "Knowledge Report" and send it to the "Ethics" dept. Ethics gets it and calls in the guy. Ethics tries to find the guy's crimes which would, of course, be the only reason that he is critical of Hubbard, in their mind. If he doesn't find any obvious "crimes" such as murder, pinching cable TV from the neighbor, masturbating or talking to someone who is on the outs with scientology, the guy is sent for "word-clearing." This, now, will fix him because it is the sole reason for anyone's "wrongdoing" and being critical of Hubbard is, of course, just plain wrong. He will spend hours painstakingly reviewing policies with another whose mission it is to "fix" him. Now, the guy will either "find his mis-understood" and be celebrant about this being the source of his diseased ill-thinking about Hubbard and his whole world will now change and he will repent by making amends to the cult for having such bad thoughts and grovel to be accepted back in. Or, if no "word" is found, there will just be more grueling word-clearing until there is such a word or words found. Should words still not be found, it could be the word-clearer's head on a pike, so this can turn into quite an ordeal. If no word is found and no change of heart, the guy is sent back to ethics where he will receive a lengthy "program" to re-educate him on scientology basics and things he's so obviously missed and he will be taken off his intended course of what he may have considered to be pleasant study or auditing and will now be side-tracked into oblivion until he shows the necessary and approved enlightenment at which time he will now make amends to the cult and grovel to be re-accepted. This "program" (or "re-programming" to be more exact) can be quite lengthy costing much time and money to the individual. He may be ordered to receive "security-check" auditing (as, if he is critical of Hubbard, he would be a risk to the cult, no?) This is something the individual must pay for himself to the tune of anywhere from $3,000 to about $8,000 PER 12.5 hours of such "sec-checking." This auditing digs as deep as possible to find anything possible to potentially use against the person should they continue to be critical and ever become publicly so. It can take one 12.5 hour block or two or three blocks (aka "intensives"). And this is at the guy's own expense. This guy probably has family in the cult, some may be staff, his or her children or his own parents. Knowing he will be jeopardizing their "Bridge to Total Freedom" as well as his own, he is seriously reluctant to cause trouble for anyone in spite of his criticisms, for if any of his friends or relatives maintain any loyalty to him it will cost them the same "re-programing." They do not want to be disconnected from and lose their friends and/or family. The guy will feel too bad about causing anyone what he's had to go though so will learn to keep his fucking mouth shut about any future disagreements. This is the end result of the "re-programing" pure and simple! It is not an easy maze to get out of. Not easy at all if you stay in and try to "handle" these insanities and alternative methods of brainwashed thinking because it is just insane. Through one's career in scientology (as Sea Org, Staff or Public) one encounters more and more points of truth. One may brave several of these and come out ahead. But they will eventually be worn down by the same rigamarole time after time, year after year, disagreement after disagreement, truth after truth. The only easy way to handle any of it is to just walk out the door and stay away. But because of the complexities mixed with one's original goal of obtaining more spirituality and true enlightenment for themselves and others it can take some people, such as myself, over 35 years to finally just disengage. And that's the short answer! Hope it helps answer your question, xenubaby!
Dear Arthur...we are propably some years apart in age...i have no words to say how fully,i feel, my vewpoint maches yours......i gues pretty much then it has been the same seuence of actions and reactions to most every ex so......i am so glad i found you guys...........thank you.....
 
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