Is this all dm's fault??

[xenubaby]

Hey guys I have some questions about DM and scientology in general...First thing I should tell you is I’m very shy which doesn’t translate well onto a message board so please be patient with me.
I have searched through previous threads to try and find my answers and not waste anyone’s time but there are still some things that I don’t understand, and I’m hoping someone will be kind enough to explain.
My first question is about DM... . If he stepped down, or was removed from his leadership roll could scientology be reformed? Are all the bad things that have come out of scientology due to miscavige?
What is the deal with Marty rathburn and Mike rinder..? People seem very angry with them and I understand that they also did a lot of bad things whilst in scientology, but then so have a lot of other people who have left the organisation. What makes mark and Marty worse? Or maybe they are not seen as worse, that’s what I’m asking?
From what I understand ‘Freezone’ is what the independent scientologists call themselves, is that right? I don’t mean ANY disrespect when I ask this next question; I am genuinely interested in the answer... What confuses me is that from what I have read Hubbard was PROVEN a liar. If this is the case, why do people believe in his theories or whatever you would like to call it? Surely if he is a dishonest man then that shakes the foundation that scientology is built on. Isn’t this something that is plain to see or am I missing something.
Thank you for your time
Sending my love to everyone here xoxo

 

[thefatman]

Personally, if DM were to step down, which for that matter, I doubt he will, someone just as malicious as him will just step up and replace him.

The problem with the Church of Scientology is that it is forced to follow Hubbard's doctrines to the letter, and as such, all the abuse, cruelty, lies, deception, fraud and other shenanigans were started by Hubbard. Even if DM made these things worse, Hubbard was the one who started Fair Game, Disconnection, SO, etc etc.

And finally, welcome

 

[Arthur Dent]

From Xenubaby: "What confuses me is that from what I have read Hubbard was PROVEN a liar. If this is the case, why do people believe in his theories or whatever you would like to call it? Surely if he is a dishonest man then that shakes the foundation that scientology is built on. Isn’t this something that is plain to see or am I missing something."

Hi Xenubaby,
I hope this helps to answer your question. Here is how they roll in the cult:

When a scientologist dares to face the truth (internet, facts unknown to general scientologists (hidden from them, actually)...they are, quite simply, punished.

The whole process is made to appear subtle and reasonable but it is real brainwashing. If someone who is "in" voices a disagreement with Hubbard, then the punishment begins and it goes like this....

Someone talks to them to find out their disagreement. This someone may seem genuinely interested in what they have to say. But they are not...they are on a mission...handle this guy and make him see the light (dark) or put him through the proper ringer so this eventually happens. The person "listening" to the guy will then write a "Knowledge Report" and send it to the "Ethics" dept.

Ethics gets it and calls in the guy. Ethics tries to find the guy's crimes which would, of course, be the only reason that he is critical of Hubbard, in their mind.

If he doesn't find any obvious "crimes" such as murder, pinching cable TV from the neighbor, masturbating or talking to someone who is on the outs with scientology, the guy is sent for "word-clearing."

This, now, will fix him because it is the sole reason for anyone's "wrongdoing" and being critical of Hubbard is, of course, just plain wrong.

He will spend hours painstakingly reviewing policies with another whose mission it is to "fix" him. Now, the guy will either "find his mis-understood" and be celebrant about this being the source of his diseased ill-thinking about Hubbard and his whole world will now change and he will repent by making amends to the cult for having such bad thoughts and grovel to be accepted back in.

Or, if no "word" is found, there will just be more grueling word-clearing until there is such a word or words found. Should words still not be found, it could be the word-clearer's head on a pike, so this can turn into quite an ordeal.

If no word is found and no change of heart, the guy is sent back to ethics where he will receive a lengthy "program" to re-educate him on scientology basics and things he's so obviously missed and he will be taken off his intended course of what he may have considered to be pleasant study or auditing and will now be side-tracked into oblivion until he shows the necessary and approved enlightenment at which time he will now make amends to the cult and grovel to be re-accepted.

This "program" (or "re-programming" to be more exact) can be quite lengthy costing much time and money to the individual. He may be ordered to receive "security-check" auditing (as, if he is critical of Hubbard, he would be a risk to the cult, no?) This is something the individual must pay for himself to the tune of anywhere from $3,000 to about $8,000 PER 12.5 hours of such "sec-checking."

This auditing digs as deep as possible to find anything possible to potentially use against the person should they continue to be critical and ever become publicly so.
It can take one 12.5 hour block or two or three blocks (aka "intensives"). And this is at the guy's own expense.

This guy probably has family in the cult, some may be staff, his or her children or his own parents. Knowing he will be jeopardizing their "Bridge to Total Freedom" as well as his own, he is seriously reluctant to cause trouble for anyone in spite of his criticisms, for if any of his friends or relatives maintain any loyalty to him it will cost them the same "re-programing." They do not want to be disconnected from and lose their friends and/or family. The guy will feel too bad about causing anyone what he's had to go though so will learn to keep his fucking mouth shut about any future disagreements.

This is the end result of the "re-programing" pure and simple!

It is not an easy maze to get out of. Not easy at all if you stay in and try to "handle" these insanities and alternative methods of brainwashed thinking because it is just insane.

Through one's career in scientology (as Sea Org, Staff or Public) one encounters more and more points of truth. One may brave several of these and come out ahead. But they will eventually be worn down by the same rigamarole time after time, year after year, disagreement after disagreement, truth after truth.

The only easy way to handle any of it is to just walk out the door and stay away. But because of the complexities mixed with one's original goal of obtaining more spirituality and true enlightenment for themselves and others it can take some people, such as myself, over 35 years to finally just disengage.

And that's the short answer! Hope it helps answer your question, xenubaby!

 

[xenubaby]

Thankyou for taking so much time to respond it is much appreciated.

One more question.. Isnt Miscavige also a victim of Hubbard?

much love xoxo

 

[Infinite]

In many respects David Miscavige is yet another victim of L Ron Hubbard's criminal Scientology mind fuck. To me, seeking to lay blame on an individual or cabal is the Wrong Target. As a wiser man than I once said:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

. . . it is all of those who stand silent while Scientology and its ilk exist in our society who are to blame.

 

[xenubaby]

Infinite i very much agree that trying to find someone to blame is not productive at all.. so why is there so much anger towards rinder and rathburn?

xoxo

 

[Infinite]

Infinite i very much agree that trying to find someone to blame is not productive at all.. so why is there so much anger towards rinder and rathburn?

xoxo

I'm not sure there's all that much anger. It seems to me to be more a concentrated form of disappointment and frustration stemming from their deliberate use of the tech to perpetuate Scientology abuses.

 

[Freeminds]

If I understand correctly, the frustration that many people feel towards Rathbun is because he hasn't accepted responsibility for all the attacks he orchestrated against Scientology critics and escapees, before he left.

That he is now the target of OSA attacks (actually a very watered-down, ineffectual shadow of what OSA used to manage) does not win him any sympathy, merely a smirk at the thought that the boot is on the other foot now. Further claims the he has the power/information to bring down the Scientology pseudoreligion invite no sympathy at all, merely a frustration along the lines of "Well go on then... do it."

The idea that Miscavige is the only thing wrong with Scientology today is a misunderstanding that disregards historical fact: the RPF, the disastrous Operation Snow White, Fair Game, R2-45, Space Opera... an amazing amount of that which is stupid and evil in Scientology came straight from the pen of the Fat Man Hisself. Being still a victim of Scientology, Rathbun is unwilling to admit this. Any anger towards him is simply an expression of distaste for his goal: a world in which the madness of Hubbardism triumphs, having used the simpleton Miscavige as a scapegoat and set himself up as the replacement. (It's true that Miscavige is a drunk and he attacks people... but Hubbard himself was the original source of the malignancy at the heart of Scientology.)

Being the creature that he is, Rathbun believes that the end (ie him in control) justifies any means. I'm not angry towards him, personally... but I wouldn't trust him an inch.

 

[Terril park]

Hey guys I have some questions about DM and scientology in general...First thing I should tell you is I’m very shy which doesn’t translate well onto a message board so please be patient with me.
I have searched through previous threads to try and find my answers and not waste anyone’s time but there are still some things that I don’t understand, and I’m hoping someone will be kind enough to explain.
My first question is about DM... . If he stepped down, or was removed from his leadership roll could scientology be reformed? Are all the bad things that have come out of scientology due to miscavige?
What is the deal with Marty rathburn and Mike rinder..? People seem very angry with them and I understand that they also did a lot of bad things whilst in scientology, but then so have a lot of other people who have left the organisation. What makes mark and Marty worse? Or maybe they are not seen as worse, that’s what I’m asking?
From what I understand ‘Freezone’ is what the independent scientologists call themselves, is that right? I don’t mean ANY disrespect when I ask this next question; I am genuinely interested in the answer... What confuses me is that from what I have read Hubbard was PROVEN a liar. If this is the case, why do people believe in his theories or whatever you would like to call it? Surely if he is a dishonest man then that shakes the foundation that scientology is built on. Isn’t this something that is plain to see or am I missing something.
Thank you for your time
Sending my love to everyone here xoxo

Most people feel that CO$ cannot be reformed even if DM is jailed or whatever. I would certainly like to see an attempt at reform, but
a thorough one would be hard to implement.

Bad things were going on before DM came to power. Google
Paulette Cooper to see the vindictive lengths Hubbard went to
in order to destroy her. This was only ended when the FBI raided
CO$ and the proof of how whe was set up was discovered.

Its probably the case that most who spent a long time as staff
in CO$ did some questionable things. Some public also. Marty and Mike were in a position to have done more questionable things than almost all others. And they did them. One might view their recent activities as in part making up for these previous bad actions. They are exposing the corruption in the CO$ with some diligence. One reason they are not liked by the critical community is that they are still scientologists and still promote the subject, as indeed I do.

Hubbard did lie at times, about his second wife and his Naval records in particular. Also he overhyped the benefits one might recieve from the philosophy and practice of scientology. However
his research in the development and improvement of the technology
was I consider an honest endeavor that has benefited many. One might also comment that many assisted in this discovery but
were not honoured by Hubbard as having done so.

Sorry we didn't see you at the protest last weekend.

 

[xenubaby]

Thankyou terril I really wanted to go to the protest but i couldnt find anyone to go with me and i was too chicken to go alone.. im very silly! Did you go? Can i tag along next time please?

xoxo

 

[Dukat]

Hey Xenubaby. Welcome and you ask good questions.

I wish more would ask themselves these same questions.

Everyone, Marty, Mike, DM are all victims of a lying, arrogant man named L Ron Hubbard who spit out crap on paper and said it was based on "research". The whole thing is smoke and mirrors and those who bought into it are too embarrassed to sit back and critically look at the real data in the real world. Instead they criticize management and talk about reform.

Best reform would be to take all the words of The Mad Man and destroy them. Especially the EDs that give specific instructions to the brainwashed to do all the bad stuff. Hip-hip-hooray!

 

[greebly]

Thankyou terril I really wanted to go to the protest but i couldnt find anyone to go with me and i was too chicken to go alone.. im very silly! Did you go? Can i tag along next time please?

xoxo

Just turn up most don't bite if your really worried come after. I'm guessing by your posts you may not have been involved with the Co$. So most will be curious at first.

There is a protest every month atleast, number of protests have dropped(fairly thankless task) this year unless something happens, ie some other key figures leave or speak out more.

The "megaraid" was this weekend and was quite enjoyable.

Terril has been to nearly all the monthly protests(missed only 5 i think in total). He does not come to the smaller mini protests as they are fairly short notice and only told to the authorities, so you won't see them posted very often.

Anyway welcome, do some reading as there are many incidents to attune yourself to LRH,Co$ etc.

 

[Smilla]

Each person has to take responsibility for any abuse they have perpetrated. DM's guilt load is higher than anyone else's, bar possibly the Hubbard Object. Rathbun and Rinder are probably not far behind.
The fact that DM was implanted by the Hubbard object is no excuse, but he is also a victim in a way. Until stops abusing others, his victim status is not something which can be adressed.

 

[Terril park]

Thankyou terril I really wanted to go to the protest but i couldnt find anyone to go with me and i was too chicken to go alone.. im very silly! Did you go? Can i tag along next time please?

xoxo

Certainly.

See your mailbox.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Infinite i very much agree that trying to find someone to blame is not productive at all.. so why is there so much anger towards rinder and rathburn?

xoxo

probably because they keep trying to blame everything on Miscavige - and those who know their history in the cofs realize how much BS that is.

You do understand that R&R have actively hurt people - right?

 

[xenubaby]

probably because they keep trying to blame everything on Miscavige - and those who know their history in the cofs realize how much BS that is.

You do understand that R&R have actively hurt people - right?

Yep i get that they have done very bad things.. So what would be the correct thing for them to do now?

 

[ClamSource]

Xenubaby, I'll answer 2 of your questions:

1 - Is it all DM's fault?

As an individual, and as the person with responsibility as head of Scientology, he has to accept the responsibility that entails, including responsibility for Scientology's ongoing abuses. On the other hand, abuses by Scientology are the inevitable consequence of Scientology doctrine. It doesn't matter who you put at the head of Scientology, without changing the doctrine, Scientology will always be abusive. Hubbard is obviously the person who created Scientology and who carries by far the greatest burden of guilt.

2 - Why do people worship Hubbard when he was a compulsive liar?

Because of Hubbard's stature within Scientology, people refuse to look past the myths. It's wierdly the case that because the lies about the man are so huge, that people are unwilling to confront the truth. People find it easier to accept the myths than accept that they're being lied to on a massive scale. It's quite a common feature of cultic messianic figures.

 

[Infinite]

Yep i get that they have done very bad things.. So what would be the correct thing for them to do now?

Point out where the bodies are buried (metaphorically, of course), stop "handling" and start talking.

 

[Smilla]

Yep i get that they have done very bad things.. So what would be the correct thing for them to do now?

They should admit what they've done, and try to make up for it; which means also bringing the real dirt they have on DM, out into the light. They would have to break the "I won't tell about you, if you don't tell about me" agreement they have with him. It's called falling on your sword, I think. It would take the guts that none of them seem to have.

 

[xenubaby]

I think the question that i am now trying to ask is, if rathburn and rinder are to blame for anything then wouldnt it make sense that the people under him were just as much at fault, and the people under them are also responsible.. its a chain of abuse and bullying. rinder and rathburn bullied people into bullying others.. arent those people just as bad? With the exception of hubbard and miscavige it seems that either everone is to blame or nobody, but to pick out a few seems unfair. I dont know.. its just a thought..