iScientology.org - A new home for Independent Scientology?

[OperatingSP]

I thought that they posted a link to Marty's blog on iScientology.org, as well as giving his book a huge promotion on their front page. I feel that Marty is all over it.

You are right, I corrected myself above. I was thinking of the Independent Training Center.

Marty has endorsed iScientology.org:

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/201...ientology-org/

I apologize. It is the Independent Training Center that he has not endorsed, or at least not yet. (I have to do a better job of both differentiating and keeping track of the various Indepedent Scientology websites, "Orgs," etc.)

 

[Veda]

-snip-

Jim... naturally, and without effort, exemplified the best qualities that I believe Scientology can help one develop. Jim, despite his profession alone rendering him a ‘cause of crime’ in the eyes of Scientology Inc., had no problem understanding my description of Scientology. In fact, he agreed with just about everything I told him about it. Spending time with my new family has taught me that the goals of Scientology are not monopolized. It taught me that there are other means to achieve those goals, and people were exemplifying that in their conduct in the world.
​

Do these sound like the words of a man who is rabidly, irrationally, KSW anit-psychiatry and anti-psychology?

In closing, I'll also note that one of Marty's recommended books, Man’s Search for Meaning, was written by Viktor Frankl, a psychiatrist.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/recommended-reading/

The "co-founder" of the CCHR is a psychiatrist.

Hubbard, in his dubious biographical sketches of himself, sought to impress others by depicting himself as the student of one of Freud's students.

Rathbun's expressed view is that psychology and psychiatry are coming around to his guru Hubbard's way of thinking, including concurring on Hubbard's Suppressive Person Doctrine.

His view also holds that Hubbard, cut off (when the anti-Christ of Scientology David Miscavige cut his comm lines) from the supposed 1980s transformation of psychology and psychiatry, from groups attacking L. Ron Hubbard to groups supporting and admiring L. Ron Hubbard - an event which seems to exist only in Rathbun's mind - was still using (to paraphrase Rathbun) the vicious attempts, by international psychiatry, to destroy Scientology in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, as a point of reference. It was then - while he was "PTS" to Miscavige in the 1980s - that Hubbard wrote some things about psychiatry from which Rathbun has sought to distance himself, such as the totally insane (even for Hubbard) 'Pain and Sex'.

Hubbard, it seems, was not aware that the psychologists and psychiatrists had come around to his way of thinking, and revised their opinion of him.

This is the same sort of thinking that led Rathbun to conclude that the movie, 'The Master', did not portray Hubbard in a bad light, and was, in effect, a positive for Hubbard's image.

It's silliness.

It's also, to some extent, practicality. His wife's father is a psychologist, and Rathbun wants a peaceful situation with his wife. Naturally.

I doubt if Rathbun believes that psychology is making Clears and OTs, as he claims Scientology does.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

"...Eventually a "withhold" becomes anything left in your personality that someone else can't control...."

I think this insight is very important in the 'withold' (tech) discussion. I don't want to distract from all the other interesting things in your post, but just wanted to highlight this.

That is certainly in keeping with how the church utilizes them in regards their membership. I don't agree it is all there is to them. I've seen withholds & missed withholds in play far too often between individuals. As phenomena of human behavior they are real.


Mark A. Baker

 

[MrNobody]

Thanks so much, Mr. Nobody, you make a lot of good points, and I think we are all in agreement - we're all spent from this war and ready to wave our white flags of surrender.

To be truthful, my posts aren't about changing Claire's mind or Mark's, but about standing up to what I consider a process of psychological mystification. In other words, I do it for myself. I write what I write to be clear about what is happening to me, to log my responses and to try to keep logical order of what is being said, to acknowledge a process.

Now, if we were to find ourselves in the same place two weeks from now, I would consider that pretty pathetic and I don't plan to do that (and if you see it, remind me!) But I feel, as someone said to me in a private post, there are lurkers who read this site, who may not share or even identify themselves, but who are watching our discourse, how we treat each other and how opinions are respected. So it may also be important for them that we confront these things the best way we can.

My basic premise is this: there are those of us who are born with certain imbalances that may lead to being disturbed, but for the most part, many people are driven crazy in this life, and they are driven crazy by other people. And most of the time, it's happens bit by bit, a little at a time, with subtle games and innuendos until you start doubting yourself and forget who you are - as I belief happened to Lisa McPherson. I am very sensitive to this energy, because it is an energy, as I tried to explain earlier, and I can smell it like you smell gas when you leave an unlit burner on. My feeling is that many of us wake up having lost of a part of ourselves and we have no idea where it went. So I am vigilant about this in my life - and I "call back my spirit" immediately whenever I feel I am giving it away, or when someone is attempting to take it through abuse, however subtle. Like I said, people don't have to agree with me, but don't play games with me, either, or it's on.

It is clear from the feedback in this thread, that there are some repetitive patterns of behavior going on, and some people have giving up. I understand that and I am new, so I am learning. My thing is, I felt a need to call it out since I arrived, because I don't ever want to have to deal with it again, at least personally. I can't speak for anybody else.

But it has been a fascinating, bumpy little journey so far and I'm having a great time. So thank you for the welcome and I'll take a seat next to you if you don't mind!



XB

Hmm...

I could have addressed some of the very good points you've made, but I decided to write about something else - let's see if someone can get something out of it, eh? So here it goes:

I'm not sure I would want to call it a war, although I see a lot of similarities. To me it's more of a way – a road I travel along, if you so will. I'd call it my journey of life. I don't know where it leads me to, I only know I need to travel on.

Sometimes, while I'm traveling, there are obstacles. Some of them I can just brush aside or kick 'em out of my way, but some are just too immobile to do that and some are too slippery to get a hold of 'em.

So what can I do? Surrender, end my journey, and settle down for the rest of my life in the place where I've been stopped?

No, I can't have that, I need to travel on. If there are obstacles which I can't move out of my way, or which I cannot climb, I just go around them – even if that means that I'd have to go a few miles back on the path I've already walked – or even if that means that I'd have to beat my own path through the jungle of life until I find another path that suits my direction.

So yeah, I think that's basically it – a seemingly never-ending journey on unknown paths to an unknown destination. At some points in my life I thought I had already reached my destination, but soon found out that I had just found a nice comfortable place to rest and relax for a while, so that I could regain the strength to travel on. So, after some rest, I stood up, grabbed my little package which contains some stuff I had found on my way, and moved on.

I'm a traveler – I may see some war scenarios on my way, but those aren't my wars - I am in no war. Surrender and settle down is not an option for me, I just need to travel on to wherever my paths may take me.

When I meet fellow travelers, we may have break, sit down for a while, share and compare what each of us has in our individual packages, teach each other, learn from each other, maybe even walk a few miles together, perhaps even discuss the quality and direction of certain roads or highways, but then each of us moves on to follow our individual personal paths.

Meeting fellow travelers and sharing and comparing your package with theirs, is kinda essential.

„Wow, you traveled that road for 30 years and THESE are all the „valuables“ you've found worthy to keep? Well, I've found some similar stuff on my ways, even picked some snippets up and carried 'em around for a while to investigate 'em, but in the end I found that they were just unnecessary ballast - not useful enough to justify their weight, so I just tossed 'em. Since my package is so much lighter and easier to handle now, traveling is much more fun for me, I tellya.“

Now, before I end this (possibly a bit self-centered) piece of pseudo-philosophical drivel, a word of advice for any fellow traveler who may read this: „Keep an eye on your direction and avoid going in circles.“

,

MrN

 

[degraded being]

That is certainly in keeping with how the church utilizes them in regards their membership. I don't agree it is all there is to them. I've seen withholds & missed withholds in play far too often between individuals. As phenomena of human behavior they are real.


Mark A. Baker

I have seen guilt and how it is used as a means of control in and out of the scientology cult and inside the catholic control system. I don't like to use any scientology jargon/terminology in an area like this because the words can subtly or not so subtly commit the user to the associations that go along with it in the "dialect" in which one is using it. So, If I was using the word "withold" I might see things partly through the scientology/hubbard system of ideas on guilt/overts/'pulling in overts' etc. Guilt tripping is fucked up enough without using Mankind's Greatest Enslaver's thought stopping language to talk about it and try to understand it.


I have met people (mostly Chinese and Koreans) who will lie through their teeth in order to 'save face' for themselves or for a person they are talking to or talking about. Being dishonest is very very often the right thing to do rather than cause anyone the embarrassment of knowing that they were done wrong. It takes a while to get used to people who are not the slightest bit concerned that they may have caused you inconvienience or fucked things up completely. I assume one is supposed to accept it, and not cause them to 'lose face' by mentioning it.

 

[MissWog]

I apologize. It is the Independent Training Center that he has not endorsed, or at least not yet. (I have to do a better job of both differentiating and keeping track of the various Indepedent Scientology websites, "Orgs," etc.)

Doing some poking around and I think he has endorsed this "church" in LA.. Go to the iScion site and it will send you to:
How do I find an auditor in the independent field?
There are a number of sources but www.freeandable.com is a good start.

Go to freeandable.com and it has Marty and the logo all over the home page AND it will refer you to the indietrainingla.org among others.

SOOOO, my guess is the iScion group will be the association and the "churches" they refer people to will be the members. Maybe this is similar to the old Mission structure?

As a Presbyterian, our church was a member of the The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and I'll never forget (why I have no idea) but one Sunday after services the congregation had a vote if they wanted to switch from one association to another.

So, it does sound like they are setting themselves up as churches.. well hmmmm

Here is my problem with that.. Everything is free in real churches as far as my experience and knowledge AND they even GIVE you a bible to use. So maybe I'm ignorant but this is no better than Co$. NOT TO MENTION, all info and history of the bible is not doled out slowly nor is the biography of your pastor or even Calvin or Luther.

Let's just take away the tax status of this SELF HELP system. I don't get to deduct my concert tickets and I'd say music is my religion, I get many wins at a good show!

At this point, that is all I care to tackle.. the taxes.. take away that foundation for "donations" and see what happens next. Protection by this freedom of religion is what gets so many people in the door. Then I will reevaluate the situation and see what needs to be tackled next to stop this abuse of children.

One day at a time, one step at a time.. I don't want to boil the ocean.. but I think this tax issue would be the right place to start??

Looking forward to any corrections on my "outsider" point of view!!
Smiles!
Miss

 

[MrNobody]

Thanked, liked and a nice set of thoughts you have there.

to the forum, Miss.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I've seen withholds & missed withholds in play far too often between individuals. As phenomena of human behavior they are real.

Mark A. Baker

Hey Mark, did you ever stop to wonder why you keep trying to sell how "real" Scientolgy is to people who just simply don't give a damn?

I never understood why you couldn't find a venue to sell your wins.

If you have had all the wins you say you have, why don't you enjoy them instead of coming to an ex-scientology board and pushing them in people's faces.

Repulsive stuff, actually, that you keep selling Scientology here, even though people have contempt for it.

Stop selling buddy, nobody cares about your tech here.

 

[MissWog]

Well anyway, Im following a lot of you guys that refer to the stuff that works....I had some 14 Hrs with a well known "free Scientologist auditor" and the first 5 hrs were just what I needed as a old Scientologist in need of repair. It got off lots of grief and sadness from a childhood experience of the next door neighbor committing suicide when I was 4. I did feel relief from that since I know it was real.

Aftr that it was Identity processing which was. An incident where I was a pilot or observing a pilot in RAF the year 1937, Where I was flying not observantly and caused a crash of a wing man, my best friend. Not looking back and his wing was under mine coming in low. We both crashed out of gas his face looking to me for a solution. I had none. I was an idiot. That was the word that stuck I was an Idiot.
\
I apologised in session and I could feel some relief.

My Cog was maybe thats why I don't have close friends today because I can't trust my senses.

This was traumatic to me and my friend.

BTW: Whether this was real or not, I felt somewhat better after discussing it. It doesn't mean it's Scientology It just means some one was there listening.

Its good and sometimes fun to listen to our friends.

Bless you who do listen.

I am very happy you got what you needed. I don't want to stop anyone from getting help they need!!! But when you said FREE..did you mean you did not have to pay for it? Just curious.. because I will wonder if they paid income taxes on the money you gave them?

My husband and I went through a very bad time in our marriage and we saw a counselor. It costs $125 an hour and it was NOT tax deductible. This counselor also has to pay income taxes on that money and property taxes on his office. Sooo, my concern is these auditors not having to pay property taxes for their home because they can classify it as a church. That is entirely different than say a professional counselor who pays income tax but can write-off their home office expenses.

PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.. I'm here to learn not argue or be obtuse, I promise!!!

 

[Smilla]

Doing some poking around and I think he has endorsed this "church" in LA.. Go to the iScion site and it will send you to:
How do I find an auditor in the independent field?
There are a number of sources but www.freeandable.com is a good start.

Go to freeandable.com and it has Marty and the logo all over the home page AND it will refer you to the indietrainingla.org among others.

SOOOO, my guess is the iScion group will be the association and the "churches" they refer people to will be the members. Maybe this is similar to the old Mission structure?

As a Presbyterian, our church was a member of the The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and I'll never forget (why I have no idea) but one Sunday after services the congregation had a vote if they wanted to switch from one association to another.

So, it does sound like they are setting themselves up as churches.. well hmmmm

Here is my problem with that.. Everything is free in real churches as far as my experience and knowledge AND they even GIVE you a bible to use. So maybe I'm ignorant but this is no better than Co$. NOT TO MENTION, all info and history of the bible is not doled out slowly nor is the biography of your pastor or even Calvin or Luther.

Let's just take away the tax status of this SELF HELP system. I don't get to deduct my concert tickets and I'd say music is my religion, I get many wins at a good show!

At this point, that is all I care to tackle.. the taxes.. take away that foundation for "donations" and see what happens next. Protection by this freedom of religion is what gets so many people in the door. Then I will reevaluate the situation and see what needs to be tackled next to stop this abuse of children.

One day at a time, one step at a time.. I don't want to boil the ocean.. but I think this tax issue would be the right place to start??

Looking forward to any corrections on my "outsider" point of view!!
Smiles!
Miss

Great post. Welcome.

 

[MissWog]

Here is a screen grab....

 

[Smilla]

One can only wonder what it is that iscientology.org consider themselves to be independent from. Lol.

They have broken away (to some degree) from their Mother Cult the Cof$ - that much is clear, but they are still very dependent on Hubbard's scam. They are still selling the non-existent states of 'Clear' and 'OT', so there's no independence demonstrated there; just a fundamental and brazen dishonesty.

They are asserting the reality of PTS and SP, and the danger of Squirreling, so there's no independence demonstrated there either, and they have adopted Religious Cloaking just like their Mother Cult. Members of this forum can consider themselves to be part of a 'Suppressive Group' in the eyes of iscientology.

"One cannot get case gain if one is connected to a suppressive person or group, and inside the Church you have exactly that — intense suppression. Ignore that connection at your peril and today many Scientologists have gotten sick and died because they tried to move up the Bridge inside a flagrantly suppressive organization.

"There are squirrels outside and some of that is even the direct causation of the Church's Office of Special Affairs (based on the theory that if people don't get standard tech the activities will fail). So do your due diligence and check with others to verify your auditor's reputation and that he does delivery only Standard Tech and nothing but Standard Tech."

(Emphasis mine.)

http://www.iscientology.org/about-us/move-up-to-clear-and-ot

"There are people who suppress. They are few. They often rise up to being in charge and then all things decay. They are essentially psychopathic personalities. Such want position in order to kill. …They arrived when they arrived, in charge of things, because nobody when they were on their way up said 'No'. They are monuments to the cowards, the reasonable people who didn’t put period to them while they were still only small bullies and still vulnerable." From HCO PL 15 MARCH 1977 RA, Data Series 41 RA, Evaluation, The Situation:

(I wonder what "put period to" means in 'Standard Tech' terms...)

"Ethics has to get there before tech can occur. So when it doesn’t exist or goes out, then tech doesn’t occur and suppression sets in and death follows."

(Emphasis mine.)



http://www.iscientology.org/resources/lrh-references/suppressive-persons

Any of that sound familiar?

Does it bring back pleasant memories?

Not for me.

 

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

It could even have been me Mark was referring to. IMHO, he is a master of the generalist sly innuendo and deliberatey plays on the raw subjectivity of many ex-Scientologists and their concomitant vulnerability to "evaluation" and "invalidation". Its KSW Standard L Ron Hubbard Scientology handling and stems from the inculcated yet fallacious idea that there is something "wrong" with anyone who speaks inconvenient truths about Scientology and L Ron Hubbard . Couple this with its twin handling ruse - you cannot talk about Scientology unless you have done Scientology - and the effect can be chilling. He's not the only one here who plays these silly games. The best advice I can give you, if I may be so bold, is to learn to recognise it and know it for what it is - cruel manipulation.

I've been going through back posts, and I meant to thank you for this.

 

[Claire Swazey]

I almost made a mistake about this, and had to double-check, because I have recently made separate posts about three different Independent Scientology websites: iScientology.org , Independent Training Center, and the Independent Checksheet Foundation.

It turns out that the Independent Training Center represents:http://indietrainingla.org/PHILOSOPHY.html

iScientology.org is silent on the issue, which makes sense since it appears to be a portal or gateway to other organizations. iScientology.org itself does not appear to offer any religious or spiritual services.

Please note that despite the fact that these sites have the word "Indepdendent" in the title, they appear to be separate and represent separate persons or organizations. One thing I find interesting is that if, and to the extent, the Independent Scientology Movement grows churches, it appears they will be governed by congregational polity -- i.e., the complete opposite of the corporate Church of Scientology.




/

Interesting. Wonder if they'll seek tax exemption.

 

[Bill]

I don't agree it is all there is to them. I've seen withholds & missed withholds in play far too often between individuals. As phenomena of human behavior they are real.

Mark A. Baker

Mark, you keep making the same mistake that all Scientologists do -- just because you have a Scientology name for something (that is already known in the real world under different names) doesn't validate Scientology.

Just because Scientologists call secrets "withholds" and the guilt that might occur "missed withholds" doesn't lead to a better understanding. In fact, by lumping everything under Hubbard's one-size-fits-all terminology and "handlings", you end up with more failures than otherwise.

Yes, these things exist in the real world. No, giving them new, strange names doesn't mean that "Scientology works". It actually means that Scientologists are cut off from real-world knowledge and understanding of these things -- and cut off from already existing solutions.

Bill

 

[MissWog]

Interesting. Wonder if they'll seek tax exemption.

Seems so... if this is correct http://possiblyhelpfuladvice.com/?p=10696

We posted on this site news about an Independent Scientology Mission opening up in the Los Angeles area.
The latest development we’ve gotten wind of is that they’ve done the legal actions to establish themselves as a corporation and a church, called the Greater Los Angeles Independent Scientology Training Center. They also have a website under that name.
The Possibly Helpful Advice of the Day is to get over there and see for yourself what the irrepressible impulse toward freedom can create.
— written by Plain Old Thetan
Number of views:907

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Mark, you keep making the same mistake that all Scientologists do -- just because you have a Scientology name for something (that is already known in the real world under different names) doesn't validate Scientology. ...

I never claimed it did.

It does however validate the existence of things which resemble such phenomena as they are described in the scientology materials. My personal experience with scientology tech approaches to handling such phenomena in and out of session has validated for me the utility of much (though by no means all) of the tech of scientology. Doesn't mean it is the whole & exact truth, but I have direct experience with it as a useful truth.

Similarly, I have observed for myself that others exposed to these ideas, whether in "original hubbard materials" or some other format such as Clearbird or other sources, often find them useful in sorting things out for themselves. And again, that is a form of validation.

Accordingly, I have no qualm about recommending such things to others for personal study and consideration, albeit with a strict advisory not to take anything as authoritative and to rely solely on their own judgement.

As to hubbard & the church I've made no bones in the past about both of these being grossly invalid in their dogmas and dogmatic approach to service delivery, among other things. I do maintain friendly relations with individuals on all sides of these issues. I've friends who are still quite loyal to lrh as well as friends who are antipathetic to any aspect of scientology. I try to see the reasons for their individual views, especially where I don't agree with them.

I personally don't find being reasonable either problematic or irrational.

The error I see most often made by others on this board is the attempt to pigeonhole me and some few others as some sort of advocates of hubbard, the church, or those implied approaches to the delivery of auditing tech. I'm not and never have been a hubbard "loyalist" who saw hubbard as authoritative. Not while I was "in", and certainly not in the thirty years that I have been out.

Frankly, most of the others aren't either. Given the all too often hostile tone of too many regulars, those who still "believe" just don't tend to stick around on this board if they show up at all.

I've heard comments directly to that effect from "loyalists" and their near associates often. It's a pity too, as they could learn from the less strident critics on this board much to their benefit. It doesn't happen more often because an openly hostile environment is not attractive and the desire to absent oneself from the accustomed unnecessary roughness is quite a natural one.

In the desire of a few to "fight the good fight" (i.e. carry on private wars against the church) the board often loses the ability to expose many of the very people for whom it is meant to the sort of factual data which directly contradicts the lies of hubbard & the church. That is a grievous failing.

As to my prior remark, I can only attribute such repeated attempts to pigeonhole those somewhat supportive of tech on the part of others here to their own desire to have someone with whom to argue. Accordingly they routinely select out those individuals who are most sympathetic to the idea of spiritual enhancement through some form of auditing, deliberately distorting their views in the process (ex. strawman argument), in order to have a game. In light of the general absence of "true believers" in the cult of hubbard, this is the best for which they can hope.

Sorry, but it does grow tedious.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... I have met people (mostly Chinese and Koreans) who will lie through their teeth in order to 'save face' for themselves or for a person they are talking to or talking about. Being dishonest is very very often the right thing to do rather than cause anyone the embarrassment of knowing that they were done wrong. It takes a while to get used to people who are not the slightest bit concerned that they may have caused you inconvienience or fucked things up completely. I assume one is supposed to accept it, and not cause them to 'lose face' by mentioning it.

That is certainly one traditional "game" in which groups of people routinely engage. And as you have noted, it has very destructive aspects. It is reasonably understandable in its history of how the game arose. It is also fairly predictable in its potential for ill effects. Much the same is true whether the game is "saving face" or "marketing" or "politics" or whatever specific form in which such a game may arise.

One of the relatively nice things about some of the tools of scientology tech is they can be helpful in spotting and addressing when such games are being routinely resorted too. They do essentially deal with "clues" to the presence or results of unexpected or unrecognized prior decisions. Knowing that something may lie beneath the surface is a clear advantage to not realizing the same.

Just because hubbard oversold Scientology, does not mean there is nothing of practical use within the basic tech.


Mark A. Baker

 

[MrNobody]

<snip>

Hmm, why did you change font style and colors in your posts? Did you want to get a certain message across?

Because, yaknow, I've once worked for a publishing studio, and I know something about how these things work.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Hmm, why did you change font style and colors in your posts? Did you want to get a certain message across?

Because, yaknow, I've once worked for a publishing studio, and I know something about how these things work.

Yes, I use such effects for a quick & dirty localized emphasis. They help in spotlighting bits I wish to emphasize or set apart for some reason.

As simple posts for a general discussion board I'm not too worried about "optimal" modes of use or display. QnD is adequate to my purpose.


Mark A. Baker