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HelluvaHoax!

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My research supports the discovery that there are actually many more than two (2) types of SP.

1. CASE SP (discovered by L. Ron Hubbard)

2. ADMINISTRATIVE SP (discovered by defrocked apostates)

3. ALLEGORICAL SP (discovered by Indie Scientologists)

4. TEMPORARY SP (discovered by David Miscavich for senior execs in the hole)

5. UNDECLARED BUT DECLARED SP (discovered by disconnected people who tried to get a copy of their declare)

6. CELEBRITY SP (discovered by OSA when they realized that is better to ignore them or flow free auditing, gifts, parties, motorcycles and medals to them than face the possibility of another magazine cover expose or press conference)
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hmm...

I could have addressed some of the very good points you've made, but I decided to write about something else - let's see if someone can get something out of it, eh? So here it goes: :) :)

I'm not sure I would want to call it a war, although I see a lot of similarities. To me it's more of a way – a road I travel along, if you so will. I'd call it my journey of life. I don't know where it leads me to, I only know I need to travel on.

Sometimes, while I'm traveling, there are obstacles. Some of them I can just brush aside or kick 'em out of my way, but some are just too immobile to do that and some are too slippery to get a hold of 'em.

So what can I do? Surrender, end my journey, and settle down for the rest of my life in the place where I've been stopped?

No, I can't have that, I need to travel on. If there are obstacles which I can't move out of my way, or which I cannot climb, I just go around them – even if that means that I'd have to go a few miles back on the path I've already walked – or even if that means that I'd have to beat my own path through the jungle of life until I find another path that suits my direction.

So yeah, I think that's basically it – a seemingly never-ending journey on unknown paths to an unknown destination. At some points in my life I thought I had already reached my destination, but soon found out that I had just found a nice comfortable place to rest and relax for a while, so that I could regain the strength to travel on. So, after some rest, I stood up, grabbed my little package which contains some stuff I had found on my way, and moved on.

I'm a traveler – I may see some war scenarios on my way, but those aren't my wars - I am in no war. Surrender and settle down is not an option for me, I just need to travel on to wherever my paths may take me.

When I meet fellow travelers, we may have break, sit down for a while, share and compare what each of us has in our individual packages, teach each other, learn from each other, maybe even walk a few miles together, perhaps even discuss the quality and direction of certain roads or highways, but then each of us moves on to follow our individual personal paths.

Meeting fellow travelers and sharing and comparing your package with theirs, is kinda essential.

„Wow, you traveled that road for 30 years and THESE are all the „valuables“ you've found worthy to keep? Well, I've found some similar stuff on my ways, even picked some snippets up and carried 'em around for a while to investigate 'em, but in the end I found that they were just unnecessary ballast - not useful enough to justify their weight, so I just tossed 'em. Since my package is so much lighter and easier to handle now, traveling is much more fun for me, I tellya.“

Now, before I end this (possibly a bit self-centered) piece of pseudo-philosophical drivel, a word of advice for any fellow traveler who may read this: „Keep an eye on your direction and avoid going in circles.“

:cheers:,

MrN

Amen, Brother. Thank you for sharing this.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'd like to hark back to the theme of a few pages ago, that as the CofS collapses, many tiny remnant groups will proliferate to try to feed on the corpse. All will claim to be the only ones with Standard Tech.

I've come to suspect that nobody can ever apply the tech perfectly. It seems as though there are so many little rules that all have to be followed, that one could only follow them precisely by auditing in a strictly robotic manner; yet a strictly robotic manner is also, I gather, non-standard. In other words, it seems that Standard Tech does not even exist.

It is therefore always justified to accuse your opponents of not having Standard Tech. No-one has it, because no-one can have it.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
'Standard Tech' doesn't exist, and it never existed at any time in the past. It is a thought stopping cliche and a marketing device.

Maybe some of these might breathe new life into the almost dead horse:

Utterly Luxurious Tech.
Premium Tech.
VIP Tech.
Elite Tech.
Professional Tech.
Enhanced Tech.

Etc.





 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
'Standard Tech' doesn't exist, and it never existed at any time in the past. It is a thought stopping cliche and a marketing device.

Maybe some of these might breathe new life into the almost dead horse:

Utterly Luxurious Tech.
Premium Tech.
VIP Tech.
Elite Tech.
Professional Tech.
Enhanced Tech.

Etc.


LOLOL

You had me at "Ultimate Luxurious Tech".

------list extended--------

Infinitely Advanced Tech

Amazingly SuperPowerful SuperTech

Beyond Your Wildest Dreams Tech

Lavishly Elite Celebrity Tech

Incalculably High Toned Salvage Tech

Impossibly Theta Big Being Tech

Technically Technical Tech​
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
And now we bring you a short musical interlude.

[video=youtube;emq-6vXQmYQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emq-6vXQmYQ[/video]
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I'd like to hark back to the theme of a few pages ago, that as the CofS collapses, many tiny remnant groups will proliferate to try to feed on the corpse. All will claim to be the only ones with Standard Tech.

I've come to suspect that nobody can ever apply the tech perfectly. It seems as though there are so many little rules that all have to be followed, that one could only follow them precisely by auditing in a strictly robotic manner; yet a strictly robotic manner is also, I gather, non-standard. In other words, it seems that Standard Tech does not even exist.

It is therefore always justified to accuse your opponents of not having Standard Tech. No-one has it, because no-one can have it.

Well. there've been Independent Scn'ists since the 80s and, I think, the Freezone (term) was coined in the 90s. So they're already doing their thing.

However, as far as hoping to take over the established Church of Scn, wouldn't surprise me one bit if that was attempted. Or even if it happened.
 

Goodbye

Patron with Honors
I'd like to hark back to the theme of a few pages ago, that as the CofS collapses, many tiny remnant groups will proliferate to try to feed on the corpse. All will claim to be the only ones with Standard Tech.
If Walmart's clothing department doesn't suit your styles, there's always JC Penney or Saks on Fifth Avenue. Free enterprise, supply & demand will sorts these things out.

CO$ will likely continue to contract over the long term, but won't collapse any time soon, as they're sitting on mountains of wealth. Not something I'd patiently wait around for to happen, and neither here nor there to me anywho.

Life goes on. :morecoffee:
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
If Walmart's clothing department doesn't suit your styles, there's always JC Penney or Saks on Fifth Avenue. Free enterprise, supply & demand will sorts these things out.

CO$ will likely continue to contract over the long term, but won't collapse any time soon, as they're sitting on mountains of wealth. Not something I'd patiently wait around for to happen, and neither here nor there to me anywho.

Life goes on. :morecoffee:

How's morale in the Cof$ these days?
 

Gib

Crusader

Gier is attempting to salvage the "SP tech," by recognizing what others recognized decades earlier: that Hubbard used "SP Declares" as a psycho-political tool.

I agree and disagree. Gier is trying to help others SEE and LOOK on a gradient, IMHO.

If that is true it is very condescending of him, but I don't think it is true that he is concerned about the gradient, just that lesser thetans, and those lucky enough to be his equals, may observe his brilliance, as he meticulously picks away at the problem of how such a brilliant person as himself was completely conned. Maybe he is salvaging the tech and maybe he is salvaging himself, or both. Splitting SPs into "Case" and "Administarive" is a great example. It seems to show that he really is trying to salvage tech - to make it workable- and at the same time it means he need not bother with the uncomfortable fact that he might be a "case" SP. Just a bit of revisionism and he get's to be an "administrative" SP. And as Marty knows, that can be good, even heroic.

YES, LRH used it as a psycho-political tool.




But Gier still has a ways to go in his understanding.

You and I do not know if this is true or not. I haven't talked with him, nor have you I assume?

Are you saying that because Veda hasn't met Geir his opinion has very little value on that point? Yet you haven't met him either, but you have an opinion about his 'gradient' structured teaching strategy. And Geir, presumably, has not met most of the people he is getting to SEE and LOOK, so how does he know what they need?

IMO, Hubbard most definitely regarded Cooper as an "SP."

But of course, he had to say face per his own policy letters.
[/QUOTE]

I was talking with Veda.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Nope. But who knows, maybe he did, I can't answer for him, never met the man, only read and listened to what he spoke. She was somebody who figured it out.

Hubbard also stated what he stated in Rhodesia as Geir Isene notes in his write-up of 6 months coming out. And as you have noted here on ESMB. So per that, Hubbard does not consider Paulette Cooper an SP.

But, the current Church considers her an SP, and will tell everybody she is.


Did I miss something here? I've been away from posting for a day or two, and just saw this. It was my understanding that Hubbard did everything he possibly could to Paulette Cooper, including almost having her killed.

As I understand it, the idea with Fair Gaming her was to have her either have a nervous breakdown, commit suicide, have her incarcerated, or, if all else failed, the victim of foul play.

If someone already told this story, my apologies. I assume many of us have heard the story of how the Guardian's Office sent someone to get her to touch something, putting her fingerprints on it. They then transferred her fingerprints onto a bomb threat to a government agency where she was interrogated before the police realized she'd been fair gamed by CoS.

She was harassed in innumerable ways, but the story I will never forget is the one she tells about a man who she was dating at the time named "Jerry Levin". In the building that she lived, there was a pool on the top floor, and many evenings they would go up there to swim and relax. At one point, he asked her to come over and join him near the terrace. She made her way too him and something stopped her, and she excused her and went back to the apartment. Soon after, he disappeared. The suggestion was Jerry planned to push her off the ledge that night and make it look like a suicide. Most people wouldn't have questioned it, given her emotional state at the time. When OSA files were discovered later on Cooper, there was information inside them that could only have come from her intimate discussions with this man. He is still at large, having dated Cooper under an assumed name. No one knows who this man is or was.

I consider the treatment of Paulette Cooper by Scientology some of the most despicable behavior by the Church towards anyone (still living). She wasn't just an SP in Hubbard's eyes, he wanted her destroyed.

Paulette's recent interview with Mark Bunker for his film project "Knowledge Report":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjzOMbY8kfo
 

Gib

Crusader
Did I miss something here? I've been away from posting for a day or two, and just saw this. It was my understanding that Hubbard did everything he possibly could to Paulette Cooper, including almost having her killed.

As I understand it, the idea with Fair Gaming her was to have her either have a nervous breakdown, commit suicide, have her incarcerated, or, if all else failed, the victim of foul play.

If someone already told this story, my apologies. I assume many of us have heard the story of how the Guardian's Office sent someone to get her to touch something, putting her fingerprints on it. They then transferred her fingerprints onto a bomb threat to a government agency where she was interrogated before the police realized she'd been fair gamed by CoS.

She was harassed in innumerable ways, but the story I will never forget is the one she tells about a man who she was dating at the time named "Jerry Levin". In the building that she lived, there was a pool on the top floor, and many evenings they would go up there to swim and relax. At one point, he asked her to come over and join him near the terrace. She made her way too him and something stopped her, and she excused her and went back to the apartment. Soon after, he disappeared. The suggestion was Jerry planned to push her off the ledge that night and make it look like a suicide. Most people wouldn't have questioned it, given her emotional state at the time. When OSA files were discovered later on Cooper, there was information inside them that could only have come from her intimate discussions with this man. He is still at large, having dated Cooper under an assumed name. No one knows who this man is or was.

I consider the treatment of Paulette Cooper by Scientology some of the most despicable behavior by the Church towards anyone (still living). She wasn't just an SP in Hubbard's eyes, he wanted her destroyed.

Paulette's recent interview with Mark Bunker for his film project "Knowledge Report":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjzOMbY8kfo

Since you included me in your posting here, which I don't mind and think it is good to repost things.

But what makes you think I don't disagree with what you now write above?

I was having a conversation with Veda.
 

Gib

Crusader
Did I miss something here? I've been away from posting for a day or two, and just saw this. It was my understanding that Hubbard did everything he possibly could to Paulette Cooper, including almost having her killed.

As I understand it, the idea with Fair Gaming her was to have her either have a nervous breakdown, commit suicide, have her incarcerated, or, if all else failed, the victim of foul play.

YES, it is quite clear that people here don't read like the links I provide.

When I answered Veda, I think he did not read the full post by Geir Isene in his 6 month posting.

Regarding Cooper and my answers or comments to Veda, this is what I am referring to, from Geir's write-up:


"Talk about possible SP declares and how the church views critics of itself as suppressive persons, I took to a lecture given by LRH himself:


Hubbard’s view on the chances of meeting an SP in Scientology
2009­10­19On July 18, 1966, L. Ron Hubbard gave a lecture called
“About Rhodesia”.
He had just come back from his trip to the country now called Zimbabwe and discovered that there had been a bunch of SP (Suppressive Person) declares back in the Scientology headquarters at Saint Hill Manor in England. He gave the audience a wholesale correction on this point:“
But you don’t have somebody that’s been around three years and [...] turn up suddenly to bean SP.
“ And then:“
In all the time we’ve been around here we’ve only had one SP that I know of…. Now whetherhe was an SP or PTS I’ve not made up my mind to this date because I haven’t investigated thecase enough.
“So, in 16 years of operation, Hubbard had only found one SP candidate.In contrast, one may wonder how many David Miscavige thinks he sees in one year.The church is acting paranoid and desperate as they declare people suppressives innumbers far exceeding what Hubbard describes as real. And with the next post on thesubject, the discussions became particularly interesting with more than 330 comments."


But all in all, you or others here I don't care per se. You are out. I only wish on the fencers or doubters to get another viewpoint to decide. And IMHO opinion, I think Geir's write-up is good for that. Understand? I don't wish to discuss it any further as my purpose was just to provide the link for others to read.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
I honestly am not quite sure what is going on.

I saw a message that said that Hubbard did not consider Cooper an SP. I wasn't sure exactly what the context was, and I figured someone might have addressed it before I did, I just wanted to add my thoughts. There was nothing personal about this in any way.

XB
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

I consider the treatment of Paulette Cooper by Scientology some of the most despicable behavior by the Church towards anyone (still living). She wasn't just an SP in Hubbard's eyes, he wanted her destroyed.

-snip-

Hubbard's instructions that the chronically low on the Hubbard Chart of Human Evaluation & Tone Scale (easily spotted by their opposition to him and Dianetics&Scientology) "should have no rights of any kind" and, if not responding to attempts at handling, should be "disposed of quietly and without sorrow" date back to 1951, and his further instructions to "ruin utterly" and "always attack" date back to 1955.


By 1959, Hubbard was explaining that bad things just kind of happen to those who oppose or try to "enturbulate" Scientology, writing in his 'HCO Manual of Justice':

"Dianetics and Scientology are self-protecting sciences. If one attacks them one attacks all the know-how of the mind. It caves in the bank. It's gruesome sometimes.

"At this instance there are men hiding in terror on Earth because they found out what they were attacking. There are men dead because they attacked us - for instance Dr. Joe Winter [wrote Introduction to 'DMSMH', and the book, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics' with an Introduction by Fritz Perls]. He simply realized what he did and died. There are men bankrupt because they attacked us - [Don] Purcell, Ridgeway, [publisher of 'DMSMH'] Ceppos."

Hubbard, who blamed JFK for the early-1960s e-meter raid on the Washington, DC org, even attributed the assassination of JFK to JFK having attacked Scientology. Kennedy, in effect, "pulled it in." Remarkably, Hubbard actually gloats about it briefly in his 1966 PR piece 'What is Greatness?'


From 7 March 1965, 'Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, the Fair Game Law':

"A Suppressive person or group becomes 'fair game'.

"By Fair Game is meant, without rights for self, possessions or position, and no Scientologist may be brought before a Committee of Evidence or punished for any action taken against a Suppressive Person or group...

"Suppressive acts are defined as actions or omissions undertaken to knowingly suppress, reduce, or impede Scientology or Scientologists.

"Such suppressive acts include public disavowal of Scientology... public statements against Scientology.

"[Suppressive acts also include] 1st degree murder, arson, disintegration of persons or belongings not [underlining added] guilty of suppressive acts.

[The above paragraph was later modified when it was realized that instructing others to murder and commit arson, in a public (non-confidential) official statement, placed Hubbard in a position of potential legal liability.]

"[Suppressive Persons] place themselves beyond any consideration for their feelings :nazi:or well being...

"The homes, property, places, and abodes of persons who have been active in attempting to suppress Scientology... are all beyond any protection."


nightmare-lrh-way.jpg
Oh, by the way, Happy Halloween!


And from the 12 February 1967 Policy Letter 'Admin Know-How, the Responsibility of Leaders' -a.k.a. The Bolivar Policy Letter - on the topic of how a subordinate should relate to his "power":

"[The power asks] 'What are those dead bodies doing at the door'. And if you [the subordinate] are clever, you never let it be known HE [the power] killed them - that weakens you and also hurts the power source. 'Well, boss about all those dead bodies, nobody at all will suppose you did it. She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn't like me'. 'Well', he'll say if he really is a power, 'Why are you bothering me with it if it's done and you did it. Where's my blue ink?...

"...always push power in the direction of anyone on whose power you depend. It may be more money for the power, or more ease, or a snarling defense of the power to the critic, or even the dull thud of one of his enemies in the dark, or the glorious blaze of a whole enemy camp as a birthday surprise...

"...Real powers are developed by tight conspiracies of this kind... and if they are right and also manage their man [the power] and keep him from collapsing from overwork, bad temper or bad data, a kind of juggernaut builds up."



l-ron-hubbard-way1.jpg


From 1980, concerning the 1970s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2Qa6WIedQ0&feature=related


Includes interviews with Paulette Cooper, Scientology officials, and Church members. This was after the 1977 FBI raids, when Scientology was doing PR damage control:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuOBGZyfw3o&feature=related


Interview with Nancy Many. (At 1:30): "Hubbard hated Paulette Cooper. He hated her and he wanted her destroyed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY76WHmRlYA&feature=player_embedded


From the Affidavit of Tanja Burden http://www.lisamcpherson.org/burden.htm:

"At the Fort Harrison I remained LRH's personal messenger. I observed LRH control the operation of Scientology in various 'Orgs' worldwide from the Fort Harrison. I coded and decoded messages to and directly from Hubbard. Hubbard used approximately 15 codes at this time to conceal his operations, programs, and policies, which he disseminated worldwide. I personally delivered messages concerning Operation Snow White, Operation Freak Out, and other Scientology secret and illegal operations. I also filed these in Hubbard's personal filing cabinet..."


From L. Ron Hubbard, from 1969:

"I am not interested in wog morality... I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher."
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Geir hasn't been out of CofS that long and went very far in it. He's still figuring out what he wants to do, probably.
 

Gib

Crusader
Geir hasn't been out of CofS that long and went very far in it. He's still figuring out what he wants to do, probably.

You haven't researched Geir's websites. He knows what he is doing. He is surviving well and living well according to his blog.

I think he has been out for 3 years now.

As I mentioned earlier, Geir is like John McMaster, only 40 years later.

I am not promoting scientology.

I am just telling you my opinions.
 
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