It's complicated!!

poppy

Patron
Hello! I don't post very often - but I often read posts and am always moved by everyone's stories and struggles in recovering from Scn. Feeling brave today so thought I'd post and ask if anyone feels the same as me??

When I tell people that I grew up in Scientology (which I don't do very often!) and they ask me questions I always say, "It's complicated!". It is - isn't it? - just so complicated to explain the experiences I went through growing up in Scn and in the S.O., sometimes I just don't know where to start. I left the S.O. and Scn 18 years ago, it feels like so long ago that sometimes it's like it never happened at all. When I first left I felt like an alien - life in the real world was so different, people even spoke differently and they certainly didn't understand my Scn jargon! One of the first things that struck me were how nice people were. After I discovered the truth about Scn (that it's all a load of tosh - in my opinion!!) I felt so deceived and betrayed but without Scn I didn't know who I was anymore - everything I'd grown up believing in was a lie. Perhaps reintegration into society is slightly easier for those who were recruited into scn later on in life because they had a pre-cult identity to draw on - I don't know? But for me Scn was all I had known and so it took me years to become the person I am today and it has been a tremendous struggle - there were times I thought I'd never get here.

I have also been wondering how other ex-Scn's feel about groups. I've have had an internal and external battle going on for years of feeling the need to be part of a group, to be accepted and valued by others - but at the same time been resistant to joining groups and feeling the need to be an indivdual and have my own identity separate from others. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone??? I feel more complete in a group, whether it's family, work, friends etc but at the same time put up barriers because I'm determined to not be influenced or manipulated by others. Has anyone else experienced similar complications in starting a new life after Scn???
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Yes, it is complicated. I know many Exes who have had similar experiences, hopefully some of them will speak to your question here. Thank you for posting about it. :thumbsup:
 

onthepes

Patron with Honors
Hello! I don't post very often - but I often read posts and am always moved by everyone's stories and struggles in recovering from Scn. Feeling brave today so thought I'd post and ask if anyone feels the same as me??

When I tell people that I grew up in Scientology (which I don't do very often!) and they ask me questions I always say, "It's complicated!". It is - isn't it? - just so complicated to explain the experiences I went through growing up in Scn and in the S.O., sometimes I just don't know where to start. I left the S.O. and Scn 18 years ago, it feels like so long ago that sometimes it's like it never happened at all. When I first left I felt like an alien - life in the real world was so different, people even spoke differently and they certainly didn't understand my Scn jargon! One of the first things that struck me were how nice people were. After I discovered the truth about Scn (that it's all a load of tosh - in my opinion!!) I felt so deceived and betrayed but without Scn I didn't know who I was anymore - everything I'd grown up believing in was a lie. Perhaps reintegration into society is slightly easier for those who were recruited into scn later on in life because they had a pre-cult identity to draw on - I don't know? But for me Scn was all I had known and so it took me years to become the person I am today and it has been a tremendous struggle - there were times I thought I'd never get here.

I have also been wondering how other ex-Scn's feel about groups. I've have had an internal and external battle going on for years of feeling the need to be part of a group, to be accepted and valued by others - but at the same time been resistant to joining groups and feeling the need to be an indivdual and have my own identity separate from others. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone??? I feel more complete in a group, whether it's family, work, friends etc but at the same time put up barriers because I'm determined to not be influenced or manipulated by others. Has anyone else experienced similar complications in starting a new life after Scn???


I agree with you whole-heartedly Poppy. Everyone has a story to tell here. It is very complicated. Whatever I have to say about you growing up with Scientology would be patronising as I did not grow up with it and I won't devalue your experience. Moving forward, I have been out of Scientology for a year and have only been on this forum for a month. I KNOW deep down there are great people in the world, but struggle with the mental chains of Scio. I want to love people more than I currently do, and I mean that sincerely.
To get a perspective, I recall an LRH lecture where he said that the family unit as a dynamic was one of the worst examples. I actually believed it because it was LRH. That is just one example amongst many.
I am not you, obviously, but can say for myself, that I firmly believe in the possibility of improving conditions in life. I believe that I will discover that before I leave the earth. I trust you will find your peace with it all, Poppy.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Complicated is the right word!

I'm a bit the same ... Just keep trusting your own judgment Poppy, because in the end it's all you can do, I'm so glad you got out and turned your life around.


:happydance:
 

poppy

Patron
I KNOW deep down there are great people in the world, but struggle with the mental chains of Scio. I want to love people more than I currently do, and I mean that sincerely.

Thank you! I agree - there are so many mental chains and I'm still discovering more all these years later. It's taken me so long to wake up - not from what Scn is- but from what it has done to me.
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
I have also been wondering how other ex-Scn's feel about groups. I've have had an internal and external battle going on for years of feeling the need to be part of a group, to be accepted and valued by others - but at the same time been resistant to joining groups and feeling the need to be an indivdual and have my own identity separate from others. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone??? I feel more complete in a group, whether it's family, work, friends etc but at the same time put up barriers because I'm determined to not be influenced or manipulated by others. Has anyone else experienced similar complications in starting a new life after Scn???
People who spent a lot of time in a cult have difficulties entering other groups beacuse, after being betrayed, they do not trust anyone. This is a sad legacy of being a long-time cult member.
Those who had a brief encounter with a cult reintegrate into the society fairly easily.
 

poppy

Patron
People who spent a lot of time in a cult have difficulties entering other groups beacuse, after being betrayed, they do not trust anyone. This is a sad legacy of being a long-time cult member.
Those who had a brief encounter with a cult reintegrate into the society fairly easily.

Yes you're right and it is very sad. I did not trust a single soul on this entire planet for years! But what's even 'sadder' is that I didn't feel like a whole person unless I was part of a group. I did say I was complicated!!! :duh:
 

CoolHand

Patron with Honors
It is still fresh for me, and I wasn't raised in it, but that struggle with groups is definitely there with me. The betrayal is certainly part of it.
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
Yes you're right and it is very sad. I did not trust a single soul on this entire planet for years! But what's even 'sadder' is that I didn't feel like a whole person unless I was part of a group. I did say I was complicated!!! :duh:

Poppy - Like you, I did not trust ANYONE in this world.. I was brought up in a very unhappy home, with grandparents who were cruel 99% of the time, and nobody to explain to me how to get along in this world.

The conclusion I came to, after MANY years or sorting it all out, is we DO belong to a GROUP.. and that group is mankind/animals/plants/objects/Earth/Spirit/ALL OF IT.. We DO belong here, and we do deserve to be happy and healthy... Underneath it all, there is HARMONY.. and we just need to learn how to connect up with it.

The more I have just LOOKED AROUND and realized where I was, and who I was, and what I wanted to do here.. and just accepted it all and started to GO WITH THE FLOW, the happier I became. The LESS I tried to change everything else to my liking, the more I felt comfortable here. I just take each day, and see how I can relate to whatever I find passing me by or confronting me.. I just keep in mind that my life is short here, and to do the very best I can with whatever situations develop.. The more my own actions are honorable in my own eyes, the more I seem to find honorable situations to join up with... and people I can trust.

One thought I often have, is What if this was my Last Day on Earth? What would I want to say or do, how would I want to act, how could I be more of who I want to be? I try to act as if each act might be my last.. and honor the Earth and my fellow spirits as best I can. If I do not oppose others.. I either embrace them, or let them pass by unopposed.. and not for one minute do I try to explain to myself how much better I am than them.. or worse..

Like the song "Let it Be".. or the advice from Dr Peebles.. "Loving Allowance for all things to be in their own time and place".. I try my best to live by those kinds of rules.. and when I see I have made an error, I do my best to learn from it and move on.. Dilpickle
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
PS: I met a fine young man in 1972 and he was a very happy healthy soul.. One day he opened up a Kahlil Gibran book, and showed me this passage:

"IT WAS BUT YESTERDAY I THOUGHT MYSELF A FRAGMENT QUIVERING WITHOUT RHYTHM IN THE SPHERE OF LIFE. NOW I KNOW THAT I AM THE SPHERE, AND ALL LIFE IN RHYTHMIC FRAGMENTS MOVES WITHIN ME."

I am finally understanding what that means.. Realize you are a part of it all.. no better than it.. no worse.. you belong.. you are ALL OF IT..

BE HERE NOW.. allow yourself to be in harmony with the flow.. it is all within you and without you.. that kind of thing :)
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
It is complicated - the embarrassment - for allowing myself to be controlled without really LOOKING - not just at the Mission or the Class VI Org - but the entire organization. For not interviewing Clear and OT's before I gave them any money - and time!

It is complicated because Scientology makes it very complicated. It starts out with simple truths and then becomes more and more complicated. Just like you cannot explain in a few simple phrases WHAT Scientology is - you cannot explain how you were in with a few phrases.

Scientology is a ball of simple truths mixed with a whole lot of lies - it confuses people. The propaganda is what Scientologists hang onto. The HOPE for a future - so sacrifice today. Just like the Sea Org states "We come back" - a clever little mechanism to get people to sacrifice their bank accounts, their free labor and their dedication. The people really believe Scientology is going to create a world without crime, insanity etc. It will not - and the Organization is criminal!

Once I was out - and I looked at everything and how mind control is applied and the secrets and the propaganda - did it become more simple. Now I tell people Scientology is a Cult - and that is all I need to tell.

Man is flawed - Scientology does not cure man's flaws - it exposes them very covertly. I can accept that I am flawed, man is flawed and that is the start of making it simple. I can trust and love again and am doing that right now.

If I had not done Scientology - I would not know that such evil exists. That is the people Scientology preys on - the trusting kind people that want to believe a group is honorable and trustworthy. Then they turn those people into robots if you stay in long enough. Getting my self-determinism back is the goal now - and it is back.

I forgive all Scientologist's and I love them deep down as human beings. I do not trust the Scientology "group" and Scientology itself is not to be trusted.

I have found other groups to trust and find my wholeness being part of groups - it is an inherent need! I will be a better person because of this experience and will rise above the hurt, betrayal and deceit. I will trust and love others. I will forgive those in the Cult that have harmed and destroyed lives. I will not forget what this Organization really is about - ever and now I know what a CULT is! Scientology is an evil Cult! That I know with total certainty.
 

sallydannce

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi Poppy,

It is complicated, I know. It seems to me there is some real core stuff which being in scientology messes with.

For me, it was all about love and trust. Layers and layers of trust and love issues which had been tampered with because of the scientology doctrine.

For each of us that leave, we take on a journey of deep personal discovery. And that's the good news in some ways. We seem to be presented with a "task" that many are not. We seem to be given an opportunity for a type of personal growth that can be so enriching. It is hard work. It is challenging. It can be exhausting to work it all out. But ultimately, extremely enriching.

Good on you for starting this thread. I sense your courage and it made me smile.

There are some amazing people on ESMB to share ideas with. People who do "get it" and can help bring some comfort.

Warm love to you
:flowers:
 

shadow

Patron with Honors
It is not just complicated, but is also extremely difficult to describe without sounding totally insane. The experience is so distant from the reality of the average person that it is best digested in small doses, and the doses are best given in a manner similar to how people are introduced and then pulled further into scn.

I was not in scn, but have a few family that are still in (most are out thank goodness), and there was a time that I started trying to explain to someone who had no experience with scn why I did not want my kids to go to scn activities with cousins, have child auditing by my sis-in-law, and why I wanted to inoculate the kids from scn. I was hearing this explanation coming out of my mouth, and it sounded so strange and unbelievable, that I even questioned whether I had gone mad.:omg:
 

auntpat

Patron with Honors
Dear Poppy,

Yes, it is very difficult to describe scn to any one even another scntologist. It was organised that way. I think that is one reason we were not allowed to discuss our progress even when we were in.

I just tell people who ask me why I was involved with it. The truth. I believed it to be a self help group to better my abilities and when I realized it was not, I left. I was not totally aware of what it is, but I knew what it was not,.

Glad you are out.

Love & Light,
Aunt Pat
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Dear Poppy,

Yes, it is very difficult to describe scn to any one even another scntologist. It was organised that way. I think that is one reason we were not allowed to discuss our progress even when we were in.

I just tell people who ask me why I was involved with it. The truth. I believed it to be a self help group to better my abilities and when I realized it was not, I left. I was not totally aware of what it is, but I knew what it was not,.

Glad you are out.

Love & Light,
Aunt Pat

"I believed it to be a self help group to better my abilities and when I realized it was not, I left. I was not totally aware of what it is, but I knew what it was not"

This is so true and good way to put it. Remember when you first went into the Co$ and you actually thought the staff cared about "your goals". Wow....it is so not the case. They have to be nice to you and act like they care about you and your goals - but because NO ONE cares about theirs - the care soon stops especially once you have lots of money on account! They really don't even care if you use it. I spent years in the Academy and was the only one on course - the only one! I could not figure out why this was so. I know now!:coolwink:
 

smartone

My Own Boss
Hello! I don't post very often - but I often read posts and am always moved by everyone's stories and struggles in recovering from Scn. Feeling brave today so thought I'd post and ask if anyone feels the same as me??

When I tell people that I grew up in Scientology (which I don't do very often!) and they ask me questions I always say, "It's complicated!". It is - isn't it? - just so complicated to explain the experiences I went through growing up in Scn and in the S.O., sometimes I just don't know where to start. I left the S.O. and Scn 18 years ago, it feels like so long ago that sometimes it's like it never happened at all. When I first left I felt like an alien - life in the real world was so different, people even spoke differently and they certainly didn't understand my Scn jargon! One of the first things that struck me were how nice people were. After I discovered the truth about Scn (that it's all a load of tosh - in my opinion!!) I felt so deceived and betrayed but without Scn I didn't know who I was anymore - everything I'd grown up believing in was a lie. Perhaps reintegration into society is slightly easier for those who were recruited into scn later on in life because they had a pre-cult identity to draw on - I don't know? But for me Scn was all I had known and so it took me years to become the person I am today and it has been a tremendous struggle - there were times I thought I'd never get here.

I have also been wondering how other ex-Scn's feel about groups. I've have had an internal and external battle going on for years of feeling the need to be part of a group, to be accepted and valued by others - but at the same time been resistant to joining groups and feeling the need to be an indivdual and have my own identity separate from others. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone??? I feel more complete in a group, whether it's family, work, friends etc but at the same time put up barriers because I'm determined to not be influenced or manipulated by others. Has anyone else experienced similar complications in starting a new life after Scn???

I enjoyed your post Poppy and thanks for sharing it with us. I do understand your feelings and surprise at how lovely people are who aren't connected in any way with that CULT.

I never grew up in scientology nor were any of my family in either. I was public for 24 years and left 3 years ago.

I had lots of scientologist friends and once I had decided not to have anything more to do with scientology I packed all my belongings, furniture, etc. and left town. Unfortunately, all my scientology friends were gung-ho scientologists on lines and I felt I had to disconnect from them too. If I didn't disconnect from them I knew I would be faced with constant demands to be 'helped' from them and the CULT.

I never felt so lonely. I loved my friends. Thank goodness I had, and still have, the support of my family which has got me through this.

Now I have made other friends and my life is going the way I want it to with no stress and my time is my time to do as I wish with no demands from anyone.

My views regarding groups is that I don't trust them anymore. I can't really say more than that.

No Poppy, you're not alone at all. There are many people on this site who will duplicate what you've been going through.

I wish you all the best and it will get better as time goes on. Being on this site helps a lot too.

Enjoy!
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
I have also been wondering how other ex-Scn's feel about groups. I've have had an internal and external battle going on for years of feeling the need to be part of a group, to be accepted and valued by others - but at the same time been resistant to joining groups and feeling the need to be an indivdual and have my own identity separate from others. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone??? I feel more complete in a group, whether it's family, work, friends etc but at the same time put up barriers because I'm determined to not be influenced or manipulated by others. Has anyone else experienced similar complications in starting a new life after Scn???

GROUPS----Before Scientology I was in a few different groups. And each time the group did not stand up to its moral high ground.

I never liked the “Group think” there was always some “alpha” guy with big opinions and people in the group would align with others in the group and alliance would be made and secrets and agendas and meetings and committees so on and so forth.

Then I found myself in Scientology and we “audited all that away”. So now I could feel good about being in a group again because of course in Scientology you were in a group but also had total autonomy! Ha ha ha ha haha ha ha. The most ethical group on the planet. Ha ha ha ha

But of course Scientology is just as bad as any group because any group puts the survival of the group above the survival of the individual. The group has secret agendas and secret purposes and can justify its lies. Like any other group such as a corporation, or a country.

When the group does anything bad it is always for the overall good.

But for me to get be in a group again I would have to KNOW it to be more ethical than the individuals, including me. If I believed this I might be inspired to bring up my level of ethics to that of this ethical group.

For me that last actual ethical group movement was America’s involvement in WW II. Clearly (IMO) a good versus evil operation where a sacrifice of the individual was needed.

As far as Scientology was concerned, I wanted to be a good and ethical as I thought they were.

But now I realize that any group is made up of individuals, and the ethics of the group are pretty much an average of the ethics of the individuals. And maybe more so, the average of the ethics of the leaders and managers of the group. Which is why (IMO) the world is in the situation that it is.

And I think in the end a person will usually save his own skin. So if you put those people in a group the group’s first agenda is to save its own skin.

I thought that Scientology auditing would make individual people saner and therefore more ethical therefore the group would be more ethical. And it would be a self perpetuating spiral upwards! And that would be a group I could get behind. But auditing and training does not make you more ethical. If it did then the entire world would love Scientology. It is a failed experiment as Hubbard would say “By actual statistic”

So no, I will never join a group again. Especially a group of “do gooders”. Of ethical people trying to help. Never a political group nor any cause trying to eradicate a disease or get to save trees, kill whales, have more guns or have less guns, or bring people to heaven or build heaven on earth.

I do like comradery but you can get that in a social group. I am in some sports groups and musical groups and these are way more fun than “saving the world groups.”

If you like groups I suggest joining a softball team, a hiking group, a theater group, a dance team, a quilting club, a video game group, a book club, a barbershop quartet. You can have the fun of the group and keep it light.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Poppy,

'Pends on the group. I'm tired of ideological/philosophical/religious ones, I can tell you that.

I don't have any reservations about book clubs or even my job- that's at a company so that's a group right there.

But I think experiences with CofS have the result of making an ex member a bit more sensitized and apt to notice possible cultic or otherwise overbearing traits in other groups later on...
 
... Then I found myself in Scientology and we “audited all that away”. So now I could feel good about being in a group again because of course in Scientology you were in a group but also had total autonomy! Ha ha ha ha haha ha ha. The most ethical group on the planet. Ha ha ha ha ...

Auditing it out was for the good. The mistake lies in accepting the Co$ group think in place of that which was given up. :omg:


Mark A. Baker
 

Dora N.

New Member
I was not raised in Scn and I was not in the SO. But I had / have similar problems with groups just from my time on staff.

I join things that I have an interest in. A running or bike club. I enjoyed these things but while friendly I also kept to myself, only sometimes having coffee after or going to a group party. Once I showed up to a ride and there were only a few members there. I asked where everyone was and the response was that "they are where ever they are". I found that response to be freeing.

A few years ago I started volunteering at a animal shelter. I acted as a staff member. I'd stay late if it was short handed even though I needed to leave, etc. This was becoming a problem so I followed the lead of most other volunteers to correct my own behavior. My family comes first or perhaps I have to work but in the end if I can't come in or I need to leave it is my own business why and I don't need to explain.

All that being said I still find that I feel guilty or like I am letting someone down. And, if I feel I am being cornered or the group is being cultish I quietly withdraw.
 
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