It's time to get off the fence

[Neo]

2 years on and people still want ESMB to "be" something.

Its only purpose it to allow communication for those who wish to talk about Scientology and their experiences in Scientology.

There is no other agenda.

FZ boards are FZ boards. Activist boards are activist boards. Anon boards are anon boards. Cooking boards are cooking boards.

The primary subject of discussion on this board is Scientology and being an ex scientologist - not HOW to be an ex scientologist.

Over time people change and they seem to want the board to change too. I will grant you that the board seems to have "phases", depending upon who joins, who stays, who posts often, how well they write and what viewpoints are. At times I've felt the board was becoming more activist, then more pacifist, then more zoney, then more compassionate, then more angry etc. It does change and it changes often. But these are just phases. Ultimately (if I retain my say) the board will always be agendaless.

It's just like it says at the top of every page:

Meet other ex's. Share your experiences. Reunite with old friends.

That's all it is really.

It says a few things up the top. I like this bit the best:

It covers such topics as...recovering from a cult experience.

Neo

 

[Hatshepsut]

Hello....My name is Hatshepsut, and I'm a recovering ex $cientologist.

 

[Emma]

It says a few things up the top. I like this bit the best:

It covers such topics as...recovering from a cult experience

.

Neo

What is your point?

 

[sallydannce]

2 years on and people still want ESMB to "be" something.

Its only purpose it to allow communication for those who wish to talk about Scientology and their experiences in Scientology.

There is no other agenda.

FZ boards are FZ boards. Activist boards are activist boards. Anon boards are anon boards. Cooking boards are cooking boards.

The primary subject of discussion on this board is Scientology and being an ex scientologist - not HOW to be an ex scientologist.

Over time people change and they seem to want the board to change too. I will grant you that the board seems to have "phases", depending upon who joins, who stays, who posts often, how well they write and what viewpoints are. At times I've felt the board was becoming more activist, then more pacifist, then more zoney, then more compassionate, then more angry etc. It does change and it changes often. But these are just phases. Ultimately (if I retain my say) the board will always be agendaless.

It's just like it says at the top of every page:

Meet other ex's. Share your experiences. Reunite with old friends.

That's all it is really.

And that I like! Why I came here in the first place and why I hang around.

Sometimes I wish there was a paint-by-numbers instruction sheet on HOW to be an ex-scientologist! Sometimes it is like sifting through millions and millions of leaves trying to work out which one fits where on some tree I can't quite find the branches of. But if there was an instruction sheet I would thoroughly reject it. Life for me as I re-build after scientology is a series of contradictions which I blunder my way through. I want, I don't want. I feel, I don't feel.

A lack of agenda is vital to me at this time in my life. I cannot afford to succumb to another agenda if I wish to re-build and retain my own self. Coming out of a cult such as scientology has made me vulnerable. Weak? No. Vulnerable. Unsure. I feel like child at times, learning things that I feel I should have learnt years ago. I am almost allergic to agendas at the moment. I sense one, I run the other way. Fast.

ESMB has helped me enormously to find out things I need/want to know in my path back to myself. I like being exposed to the robust views of others. I had no idea how lacking that was in my life until I left scientology. Sound deep? It is.

So thank you Emma for keeping this board free of agendas. I appreciate it.

 

[Neo]

It says a few things up the top. I like this bit the best:

It covers such topics as...recovering from a cult experience.

Neo

What is your point?

It doesnt say anywhere that I have to have a point!

Neo

 

[Alanzo]

To me, ESMB is a place to seek to live with the truth.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

<snip> is an anti-tech stance permitted? <snip>

Well, I haven't been banned yet.. I'm very much 'anti'tech'.. Occasionally I'm being quite forthright about it.

Maybe there's folks gnashing their teeth about me?

The 'tech' is dreck! - It is an integral part of a very complicated and impressive scam, the purpose of which is to suck you dry of all the money you can earn, loan and steal. That done, leaving you incabable of complaining about it.

I never, ever had any 'wins' personally from the alleged 'tech'! - I heard PR hype.. I listened to people rave..

I was strangely not 'experincing' anything out of the ordinary. No exterioriztion.. No epiphanies.. No great leaps spiritually or fantastic case gains.

I kept quiet because you don't invalidate someones 'win'..

I wrote 'success stories' because I could not afford not to! - Literally! - To refuse to write 'em or to be 'incomplete' on some 'service' you would be CS'ed to a retread. Subject to ethichs trouble, SP declare included, if refused and payed in full before starting.

The 'tech' works! - The only reason it doesn't is that the customer is a damned SP!

I expected that I'd 'experience' something in some future session when my 'problem' was found. Meanwhile I had 'no case on post'..

Until my BT's convinced me that it was all a scam..

 

[Alanzo]

I have heard this before. What then is ESMB? Is activism permitted, is an anti-tech stance permitted? I have noticed this board evolve a lot since I first got here. Or maybe I have. Still I think ESMB should be an activist board. To the same degree that it is also a Freezone board. And it is a Freezone board.

Why do the activist voices get shouted down more than the Freezone voices? The truth about Scientology is that it is a dangerous cult, and it uses a dangerous technology. The same technology that the Freezone uses. I for one am glad that WTS has a strong opinion on this matter and is willing to continually voice it.

My personal opinion - if you love the tech so much, go back to the cult.

Neo

I have found that anti-Scientology "activists" are generally less interested in the truth than freezoners who still believe in the tech, but acknowledge Hubbard's faults and insanity, and evil.

I have found that Anti-Scientology Activists, like any "activist", are less interested in the truth than in their own crusade.

If data runs contrary to the Great Crusade, then that data usually gets overlooked, ignored, or suppressed.

Take it from the Ultimate Crusader: The Crusade Is All.

The Truth?

Not so much.

Having said that, nothing would actually get done without Activists.

Coerced abortions
Slavery
Enforced Disconnections

Would all continue if it were not for Anti-Scientology activism.

So there ya go...

The truth almost always contains BOTH good and bad, black and white, yes and no.

The truth sucks sometimes....

 

[uniquemand]

I really don't have any problem with WTS expressing his/her view of the tech, or you, Neo, at all. I think it's good for people who are exiting, or who have exited the Church to be able to freely inspect all points of view, and all the data that they can get their hands on. Most, if not all, of the data is anecdotal, when it comes to Scientology technology results. Scientifically, there has been almost nothing done. What was done, as far as I know, was one single study, which wasn't repeated, which had extremely small sample sizes, and which only tested for the ability to remember something which was part of a painful experience (engram). While that may be enough to debunk the whole subject to some, I don't feel that the claims about memory in Dianetics are particularly significant, as the reason people are involved in the subject have a lot more to do with "freedom from psychosomatic illness" or having some sort of emotional problem they want handled.

A significant test of this could be done, where a person was prescreened for chemical imbalance, for instance, if they had depression (I'm sure that those claiming depression is caused by chemical imbalance wouldn't mind actually testing to see if this was the case), and then those that didn't have a chemical imbalance were put through a program as put forward by a trained C/S and a trained Auditor, and then retested afterwards. That would be an interesting test.

I completely agree that the Church of Scientology is a dangerous cult. I just think that the reason they are dangerous is because they have something of value to offer, which they use to control and manipulate their membership, along with their external operation of intimidation and harassment.

 

[well_that_sucked]

Snip
I completely agree that the Church of Scientology is a dangerous cult. I just think that the reason they are dangerous is because they have something of value to offer, which they use to control and manipulate their membership, along with their external operation of intimidation and harassment.

I believe the only people that would consider lrh cult tech "valuable" would be people that desire to control others, and then steal from them. lrh cult tech has no other value, or purpose.

While this board may not have been designed as an activist board, it appears, at least to me, to be the only logical place for one to exist, or at least begin.

OCMB is closed to new members, WWP is WWP and most exes won't get it.

That leaves ESMB.

This is the only place on the web we as cult victims can gather and be understood and perhaps even begin to plan on a way to make this nasty fucking cult pay for what they have done.

 

[uniquemand]

I agree with holding the Church of Scientology and LRH's estate accountable for the damage they have done.

We disagree on the value of "the tech", and I'm fine with that.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I believe the only people that would consider lrh cult tech "valuable" would be people that desire to control others, and then steal from them. lrh cult tech has no other value, or purpose.

While this board may not have been designed as an activist board, it appears, at least to me, to be the only logical place for one to exist, or at least begin.

OCMB is closed to new members, WWP is WWP and most exes won't get it.

That leaves ESMB.

This is the only place on the web we as cult victims can gather and be understood and perhaps even begin to plan on a way to make this nasty fucking cult pay for what they have done.

While I agree with you on the Church and the Tech, I don't think that those who hold it dear must be out to control others. If this was the case, in the years you and I were in it would mean that we wanted to control others. Speaking for myself, I did not.
I think we can deconstruct Sceintology better if we don't assume or attribute bad motives to others. After all, that is what Hubbard did and that is an essential part of the Tech and premise of Scientology. If you are assigning bad motives to users of the tech, you are implying that the bad results are not the cause of the tech but rather the bad motives of the people involved.

The Anabpatist Jacques

 

[lkwdblds]

Leaving Organized Scn is often done in Gradients

Leaving the Church for many, based on their stories, is done on a gradient.
In the early stages, most people obtain "wins" or "perceived wins".
They also see outpoints or "Red Flags" As long as the wins are greater than the red flags, they remain in and either ignore, explain away or buy the Churches explanations regarding the red flags.

A breaking point is reached and they leave. The departeee is a "babe in the woods", unhatted on being an ex "churchie". Eventually, many begin a search to make sense out of their experiences. It takes skill to assimilate data about the church on the internet. There is a rainbow of information from brilliant articles and stories to rantings of hate no better than what the church is offering. At sometime, the new church departee feels he has a handle on things. Then. arriving at a web site such as ESMB, the person encounters a vast array of new information and many fine, intelligent people revealing more data and more points of view.

The person's viewpoint starts to change again only much more rapidly than in the early stages. The search is on and several questions need to be answered:

1.Is some Scientology tech valid and some of the wins real or is it all garbage.
2.Was Hubbard a genius who meant well but was flawed or an evil man intent on etching his name into history at the expense of ruining the lives of others?
3. Was the Church okay when Hubbard ran it and then DM ruined it, or had Hubbard laid the groundwork for all the evil before DM came along?
4, Shoul the Church be reformed or destroyed?
5. Should the person be a passive critic or get active?

The answer to #5 is obvious. A person needs to do something. Even Hubbard states this well in his well known, "History of Man" tape. Find what to do is a new challenge!

In my case, my opinions are still forming and changing rapidly since joining ESMB about 3 weeks ago. My opinions at this time are that some large blocks of the tech do have value and help people. Hubbard was not totally evil. He seemed to start very strong as a leader and his abilities waned as he got older. I believe the seeds for ruining peoples lives are imbedded in Hubbard's tech. mostly the admin tech. I do not want Scientology to be obliterated from the Earth. It needs a drastic housecleaning and re organization and it needs to cease being a dictatorship and in its new repackaging, management has to accountable for what they do to some sort of senior body such as a Board of Directors. The details need to be worked out.
lkwdblds

 

[Zinjifar]

I'd say that the entire purpose of the 'organization' is to control people. But, there is *no reason* for the organization, if all you want is 'The Tech'.

It's unnecessary; it doesn't need reforming, it needs eliminating.

Zinj

 

[uniquemand]

There is a need for some kind of organization, even if it's only looseknit and casual. In order to train, you need minimally the materials, someone to work with, and ideally, a mentor who knows the deal and can help bring you up to a "standard" of application. It's the old apprentice-journeyman-master progression.

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

The only thing Scientology needs is a large library and several people that maintain it.

That is if you want to think the tech is worth anything...

 

[uniquemand]

That's all MicroSoft needs, too. No tech support, nobody to install complex applications, nobody to troubleshoot, nobody to train anyone on the use of the software!

 

[Zinjifar]

That's all MicroSoft needs, too. No tech support, nobody to install complex applications, nobody to troubleshoot, nobody to train anyone on the use of the software!

Microsoft 'needs' that stuff because they *sell* their 'product'.

If something is free and enough people care about it the 'support structure' evolves naturally.

Zinj

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

That's all MicroSoft needs, too. No tech support, nobody to install complex applications, nobody to troubleshoot, nobody to train anyone on the use of the software!

And thus you have the cult of Scientology.
The more you add the more the cost goes up. And the more chance you have of a DM taking over.

 

[Dulloldfart]

The answer to #5 is obvious. A person needs to do something. Even Hubbard states this well in his well known, "History of Man" tape. Find what to do is a new challenge!

What well known, "History of Man" tape?

Paul