It's time to get off the fence

[Wisened One]

Welcome SomeGuy, and WHAT a fascinating, contributing intro and post!

Wisened One

 

[duddins]

It might be true! Seriously though, rereading my post after I post it and seeing as many gramatical and typo errors shows me I have a bad habit of shooting with out aiming.

I don't think you "guys"(and I really hate generalities) ever left the human race.

No, Someguy...we really did not leave the human race. But our perception of the human race was changed by indocrination from inside the C of S.
The ideas sank in over time....we thought we were different.
Like we were above the "wogs" in knowledge of everything...education, mental health, physical health, the spirit.

As an example, how could Scientology staff justify to themselves why they did not take Lisa M. to the hospital sooner? Why did they not seek help for her?

Listening to his rants, it hit home to me hard. Tom Cruise really thinks that he is the authority on how to handle the scene of an accident because he has been indocrinated with the idea that he knows things that "WOGS" do not. He is now beyond the human race....better prepared to handle life than others.

The appearance of this video shows that his indocrination is complete.

If anyone wants to know fundimentally why people like Lisa are allowed to die, it was stated clearly by Tom Cruise.

They know that they know better than everyone else.

Those of us that have left are pulling out the threads of this indocrination from our minds and spirits.

It is hard to express in words...but I hope I am coming close.

I really loved your post, by the way. I have been proud to be a "wog" again for many years now. It took a long time to be back among the living and I love it.

I know that what you say is true.....some are biting off more than they can chew....but it is great to have people like yourself learning more and more of the truth about Scientology every day!

I see it in a very positive light.

 

[Wisened One]

Oh duddins: Your post really hit nerves for me. You say what I've been trying to say so well!

Yep: We are STILL trying to get over that 'feeling of superiority over wogs' thing.

We're still hermits as a result of it, too.

Wisened One

 

[duddins]

Oh duddins: Your post really hit nerves for me. You say what I've been trying to say so well!

Yep: We are STILL trying to get over that 'feeling of superiority over wogs' thing.

We're still hermits as a result of it, too.

Wisened One

Thanks Wisened one!

I've felt so strongly about this single point for many years. When my eyes were opened, I was pretty pissed off at the C of S and then ultimatly myself for buying into it.

But....as Someguy brought up...we were trying to do good things...trying to make a good impact on the world........

While we were being indocrinated and indocrinating each other.

 

[duddins]

We're still hermits as a result of it, too.

Wisened One

I feel your words!

 

[SomeGuy]

No, Someguy...we really did not leave the human race. But our perception of the human race was changed by indocrination from inside the C of S.
The ideas sank in over time....we thought we were different.
Like we were above the "wogs" in knowledge of everything...education, mental health, physical health, the spirit.

As an example, how could Scientology staff justify to themselves why they did not take Lisa M. to the hospital sooner? Why did they not seek help for her?

Listening to his rants, it hit home to me hard. Tom Cruise really thinks that he is the authority on how to handle the scene of an accident because he has been indocrinated with the idea that he knows things that "WOGS" do not. He is now beyond the human race....better prepared to handle life than others.

The appearance of this video shows that his indocrination is complete.

If anyone wants to know fundimentally why people like Lisa are allowed to die, it was stated clearly by Tom Cruise.

They know that they know better than everyone else.

Those of us that have left are pulling out the threads of this indocrination from our minds and spirits.

It is hard to express in words...but I hope I am coming close.

I really loved your post, by the way. I have been proud to be a "wog" again for many years now. It took a long time to be back among the living and I love it.

I know that what you say is true.....some are biting off more than they can chew....but it is great to have people like yourself learning more and more of the truth about Scientology every day!

I see it in a very positive light.

I agree with your final sentiment, even if it's just a small new segment of people "learning" and engaging in conversation something good comes out of it.

As to the superiority thing, it cuts both ways. Prior to reading the stories (and one in particular is beyond moving, and I hate that it's not a story but something that actually occured.) I held "all of you" in great disdain. Part of the human condition to ridicule that which you don't understand. I'm sure most people if asked with having only a tiny bit of information feel the same way. I think this is why I believe most people on the subject are indifferent on it and it wasn't until I actually decided to read how this all came to pass by those who have shared their stories here that that veil of fog lifted.

My opinion has done a 180 on the subject (this is rare trust me, once my mind is set it's usually for life). It has gone from disdain to admiration in some cases, I don't know if I would have had the strength to have survived if I were in the same situation.

 

[everfree]

I've shared Alanzo's qualms that Anon could degenerate into... something nasty. Some Anon can be pretty denigrating in their opinion of Scnists, and such dehumanization IS a first step towards some dark places, especially when coupled with their initial illegal tactics and some of the antics that occur on the chans which to me show immaturity and a lack of responisibility and/or wisdom.

I'd hate to see any Scnists -- or Anon, for that matter -- get hurt.

Happily, however, it seems like the majority of Anon try to make a distinction between fighting the "CofS and abuse" and fighting "scnists" and continually point out that distinction amongst themselves, in their videos and on their boards. Moreover, they seem to have corrected themselves on the illegalities and I applaud them for it. I also appreciate the enthusiasm they have brought to "the cause".

So although I do think that some aspects of Anon bear watching, I think overall they're doing a great job so far.

For those of you who think that Alanzo is overreacting, do remember that he and I and others here come from a background that started out with the highest ideals possible yet ended in abuse and degradation, so vigilance in watching out for abuse even in something with the best of intentions is based in actual life experience hard won.

 

[duddins]

I agree with your final sentiment, even if it's just a small new segment of people "learning" and engaging in conversation something good comes out of it.

As to the superiority thing, it cuts both ways. Prior to reading the stories (and one in particular is beyond moving, and I hate that it's not a story but something that actually occured.) I held "all of you" in great disdain. Part of the human condition to ridicule that which you don't understand. I'm sure most people if asked with having only a tiny bit of information feel the same way. I think this is why I believe most people on the subject are indifferent on it and it wasn't until I actually decided to read how this all came to pass by those who have shared their stories here that that veil of fog lifted.

My opinion has done a 180 on the subject (this is rare trust me, once my mind is set it's usually for life). It has gone from disdain to admiration in some cases, I don't know if I would have had the strength to have survived if I were in the same situation.

Got you there!..part of my growth in recovery was in studying how Nazism could engulf a people....I was almost obsessed on the topic of the holocaust for a time. People can learn to hate what they do not understand.

But in Scientology....we were not taught to hate "WOGS" but that we were above them, beyond them in awareness. That is a cult specialty. It is the old...."we are the only way out" idea on steriods. Fanaticism.

It is refreshing to read your point of view and I am glad to know that us folks here at ESMB have been influential.

I cannot speak for others, but after I blew, it took compassion, patience and the kindness of Ex Scn friends to help bring me back to where I could stand on my own two feet.

I know that there will be many needing that kind of love when the C of S goes belly up...there are most likely many out there now ready..that do not know how to leave...where to go.

I know that there are many who will be ready to recieve them.

 

[duddins]

I've shared Alanzo's qualms that Anon could degenerate into... something nasty. Some Anon can be pretty denigrating in their opinion of Scnists, and such dehumanization IS a first step towards some dark places, especially when coupled with their initial illegal tactics and some of the antics that occur on the chans which to me show immaturity and a lack of responisibility and/or wisdom.

I'd hate to see any Scnists -- or Anon, for that matter -- get hurt.

Happily, however, it seems like the majority of Anon try to make a distinction between fighting the "CofS and abuse" and fighting "scnists" and continually point out that distinction amongst themselves, in their videos and on their boards. Moreover, they seem to have corrected themselves on the illegalities and I applaud them for it. I also appreciate the enthusiasm they have brought to "the cause".

So although I do think that some aspects of Anon bear watching, I think overall they're doing a great job so far.

For those of you who think that Alanzo is overreacting, do remember that he and I and others here come from a background that started out with the highest ideals possible yet ended in abuse and degradation, so vigilance in watching out for abuse even in something with the best of intentions is based in actual life experience hard won.

Thanks for posting this Everfree......I agree with you. Any sign of fanaticism should be watched for. Some are overly sensitive to it for good reason!

 

[SomeGuy]

Got you there!..part of my growth in recovery was in studying how Nazism could engulf a people....I was almost obsessed on the topic of the holocaust for a time. People can learn to hate what they do not understand.

But in Scientology....we were not taught to hate "WOGS" but that we were above them, beyond them in awareness. That is a cult specialty. It is the old...."we are the only way out" idea on steriods. Fanaticism.

It is refreshing to read your point of view and I am glad to know that us folks here at ESMB have been influential.

I cannot speak for others, but after I blew, it took compassion, patience and the kindness of Ex Scn friends to help bring me back to where I could stand on my own two feet.

I know that there will be many needing that kind of love when the C of S goes belly up...there are most likely many out there now ready..that do not know how to leave...where to go.

I know that there are many who will be ready to recieve them.

Well I think you touch at the heart of my motivation for even posting. On most subjects I would have usually nodded and walked away. It's the contrast of what this thread is about and what is currently happening.

My belief that most of the "anonymous" crowd is so way in over their heads. Should the CoS fall tomorrow (in what ever that means) there are going to be alot of people who need help these kids have no idea how to provide. You are talking emotional, financial, living, reconnecting with families.

Granted I think it takes some major legal rangling to actually take down the church but that's neither here nor there. I could be completely wrong on that but anything which has people with vested interest requiring it continues, protest might weaken it but to truely "hurt" it you need pressures above and beyond. My opinion on the matter.

Should I be wrong and in the next few months a natural dismantelling occurs. You guys (as a group) are best equiped to assist those coming out with the very things they will need. I have not lived in yours or their shoes and no amount of empathy can replace having lived it. It's what made me say, "you know these are good people, I need to voice that". In the end it's a meaningless token but it means something to me.

 

[Alanzo]

For those of you who think that Alanzo is overreacting, do remember that he and I and others here come from a background that started out with the highest ideals possible yet ended in abuse and degradation, so vigilance in watching out for abuse even in something with the best of intentions is based in actual life experience hard won.

This is the second time since I've known you that you have said something that completely understood what was going on with me - even more than I was aware of myself.

That is it.

You've got it, spot on.

Thank you very much, Everfree.

 

[duddins]

Well I think you touch at the heart of my motivation for even posting. On most subjects I would have usually nodded and walked away. It's the contrast of what this thread is about and what is currently happening.

My belief that most of the "anonymous" crowd is so way in over their heads. Should the CoS fall tomorrow (in what ever that means) there are going to be alot of people who need help these kids have no idea how to provide. You are talking emotional, financial, living, reconnecting with families.

Granted I think it takes some major legal rangling to actually take down the church but that's neither here nor there. I could be completely wrong on that but anything which has people with vested interest requiring it continues, protest might weaken it but to truely "hurt" it you need pressures above and beyond. My opinion on the matter.

Should I be wrong and in the next few months a natural dismantelling occurs. You guys (as a group) are best equiped to assist those coming out with the very things they will need. I have not lived in yours or their shoes and no amount of empathy can replace having lived it. It's what made me say, "you know these are good people, I need to voice that". In the end it's a meaningless token but it means something to me.

Wow...and thank you. I deeply appreciate your posts because I see that means something to you. It is not just a CHURCH but people, individuals that are in the dark right now.

I think that because when one is so deeply indocrinated, when the veil is finally lifted and the ideas of greatness demolished, it is that much more devistating. I was in deep pain when I left.

I don't pretend to think that Anon is aware of all aspects of this...I think that some of them are becoming more aware as they read our stories.

Many will need a hand. On this board there are many incredible people. Many who are now doing very well in life and who are willing to be there for them. I am among them.

Welcome to our Board by the way!

 

[everfree]

This is the second time since I've known you that you have said something that completely understood what was going on with me - even more than I was aware of myself.

That is it.

You've got it, spot on.

Thank you very much, Everfree.

Haha, I'm glad. I'm curious - what was the other time?

 

[Alanzo]

Haha, I'm glad. I'm curious - what was the other time?

It was on Beliefnet. You said that it was clear that I felt that my life had been derailed, and that I was working out exactly what happened to me.

Am I wearing a card on my forehead like we're playing Indian Poker, or what?

 

[ChaoticPsychotic]

I tried to read through all of the posts but frankly don't have the patience to get through everyone's opinion here. Opinions are like assholes and everyone most certainly seems to have one here so I am just going to throw mine in for the hell of it.

I want to see CoS systematically dismantled. I want to see all of the sufferers and victims given some sort of reparation. I want families and friends reconnected. I want Hubbard exposed for the bastard he was. I want to see the "Tech" burned, destroyed and obliterated off the face of this earth.

Having been the lucky recipient of 13 PC folders worth of brainwashing and torture (nope, I didn't even make it thru the Grades in case you are wondering) in the form of list repairs, corrections, out-int handlings, sec checks etc. I can proudly declare that I am in fact an SP since I never received even a lick of case gain for all of my troubles. Although I would like to add here that I have had a total of 3 sessions of therapy with my Psychologist for a cost of $240 for 3 hours and got all the relief I could have ever hoped for in my endless hours of Scientological "auditing".

Freezoners, while you puzzle me, I have no problem with you doing your thing. If it works for you then whatever, who am I to judge?

Anonymous, I cannot tell you how much it means to me what you are doing. I hope that our government gets a clue and puts a stop to the cult sooner rather than later and I think that that is actually possible now. You guys have brought a hell of a lot of heat on the cult and I think you rock for doing so. I say keep up the good work!

And that's my asshole... err... opinion.

 

[duddins]

It was on Beliefnet. You said that it was clear that I felt that my life had been derailed, and that I was working out exactly what happened to me.

Am I wearing a card on my forehead like we're playing Indian Poker, or what?

It does feel good to be understood....doesnt it?

 

[SomeGuy]

Welcome to our Board by the way!

Thanks, most likely I'll go back to my lurker ways perhaps down the road if some one springs up a discussion on philosophy or relegion or politics or my favorite MMOs (and the psychology behind creating the chase the carrot syndrome) I'll jump in most likely f13 is a better place for that any way.

I've been tempted to post in a few other threads but I'm way too much of an opinionated bastard to start out in the big leagues of this board, nothing good would come of it.

 

[ExCMO]

I truly believe that the church should get its act straight. I think it is time a whole reorganization takes place and it should really become a matter of choice to do scientology. It should not negate or invalidate other religions or spiritual studies as it currently does.

It should recognize that a person is free to search for answers, and said person could find some answers in Scn, but also in Buddhism or Christianism, or elsewhere, for that matter.

I think it should stop its criminal practices. It should stop trying to cash on everyone's bank accounts and become a true religion. One in which people donate according to their personal wishes and possibilities. One where someone can turn to for help and not get his butt kicked around in bogus and weird ethics actions, but that instead helps a person resolve his/her moral issues with care and attention.

There is stuff in Scn that works, but its current structure and management are not part of those working things. Much to the contrary: whatever benefits one could get from Scn are immediately trashed by the church's insane wrongdoings. It should become a guide, not a threatening master.

If the church can get itself straight, get rid of all the crazy stuff and become ethical, then fine. If it can't (or won't), then the world will be better off without it. Unfortunately, I think it will opt for the latter.

 

[Alanzo]

Thanks, most likely I'll go back to my lurker ways perhaps down the road if some one springs up a discussion on philosophy or relegion or politics or my favorite MMOs (and the psychology behind creating the chase the carrot syndrome) I'll jump in most likely f13 is a better place for that any way.

I've been tempted to post in a few other threads but I'm way too much of an opinionated bastard to start out in the big leagues of this board, nothing good would come of it.

Oh really?

So, basically you're a pussy.

Is that what you're saying?

 

[Björkist]

Don't look now, but you're a bit of a nazi, anon.

You have the same ideals that the original brownshirts had in the early 1930's in Germany.

Do you know about the brownshirts of Germany, anon?

Honk if you hate Scientology!