Janet Reitman on the Independent Movement

[Zhongjianren]

Janet Reitman on the Independent Movement

Janet Reitman: "Change or Die."
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/janet-reitman-change-or-die/

Janet Reitman: “Change or Die.”

Posted on June 24, 2011 by martyrathbun09| 107 Comments

The following is the conclusion of the interview that Editor in Chief of the Village Voice conducted with Janet Reitman, author of the new book Inside Scientology:

If the celebrities are being more cautious, it’s fascinating to see the new “Independent Scientology” movement flourishing as former high-level members like Marty Rathbun rebel against Miscavige’s rule.

“Scientology is a very doctrinaire church, way beyond Catholicism. I mean a really all-encompassing, all-demanding, highly judgmental, cripplingly controlling, organization. And these Independents are saying, ‘Fuck the organization, we’re just going to go do this on our own, we’re going to pay a lot less money for it because really, this stuff should be free. And we’re going to live better lives.

“To me, that’s really religion. If you can just seek to better your life and the lives of those around you, without taking advantage of those around you, more power to you.”

Like me, Reitman is fascinated with Rathbun’s blog, where he defies Miscavige’s rule and attracts more and more Independents.

“I think Marty is so threatening to Miscavige because he’s like a Martin Luther. He’s saying, look, there’s an alternative way.”

And as for Scientology itself, under Miscavige?

“I think they’re going to have to change or die.”

I have never spoken Janet Reitman. She came to these conclusions upon interviewing dozens of Scientologists, in and out of the church, and investigating the subject for two years. The full interview can be found at:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/06/janet_reitman_a.p

 

[Veda]

I haven't read the book yet, or seen any reviews, but, IMO, the editor of the 'Voice' and the author of 'Inside Scientology' are a tad more charmed by Marty and his flock of followers than is desirable.

It remains to be seen if this has significantly influenced the book in a fashion that makes it more a commercial for Marty's New "Independent Scientology" than an examination of the "applied philosophy" that is the core of both Marty's "Independent Scientology" and, also, the core of the deceit and abuses of the "Church" of Scientology.

It's possible to expose the abuses of Miscavige without being taken in by Marty Rathbun's PR damage control efforts on behalf of L. Ron Hubbard and his deceptively layered "applied philosophy."

I hope that's what happened, and that this book is a pleasant surprise.

 

[Infinite]

I fear this tome may have the wrong WHO and the wrong WHY.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I haven't read the book yet, or seen any reviews, but, IMO, the editor of the 'Voice' and the author of 'Inside Scientology' are a tad more charmed by Marty and his flock of followers than is desirable.

It remains to be seen if this has significantly influenced the book in a fashion that makes it more a commercial for Marty's New "Independent Scientology" than an examination of the "applied philosophy" that is the core of both Marty's "Independent Scientology" and, also, the core of the deceit and abuses of the "Church" of Scientology.

It's possible to expose the abuses of Miscavige without being taken in by Marty Rathbun's PR damage control efforts on behalf of L. Ron Hubbard and his deceptively layered "applied philosophy."

I hope that's what happened, and that this book is a pleasant surprise.

Yup!

It's always fascinating to try to figure out what the hell the difference is between CoS Scientology and Indie Scn.

As far as I can tell, here is what they are selling, respectively:

Church of Scientology: TOTAL FREEDOM (from psych-implanted mest universe)

Indie Scientology: TOTAL FREEDOM (from psychotic-implanted cob universe)​

 

[Gadfly]

I don't mind the Indies as long as they REALLY do "throw out the Scientology organization". Though, I don't trust that they mean this.

When they say, "Fuck the organization", I HOPE that what they mean is, "throw out ALL Hubbard's policies that the organization is based upon". And, that they don't have this naive attitude that "the organization COULD be fine and decent if it weren't for Miscavige, and we would happily support a decent Scientology organization based on Hubbard's wonderful policies and directives on how to expand Scientology across the world".

There cannot EVER exist a "decent" Scientology organization based on the extant and total writings of Hubbard regarding "the Church of Scientology" and HOW to expand that church.

The Indies ARE different and less destructive because they do NOT have a central organization that operates faithfully on Hubbard's third-dynamic directives. This is important because at least 90% of the problems, harm and trouble that Scientology causes the world is due to the Scientology organization CLOSELY FOLLOWING Hubbard's directives on HOW to EXPAND the organization (hard sell, ruin-finding, lying, strict KSW, PR, deception, manipulation, control, nasty OSA tactics aimed at "handling" critics and enemies, etc.). Without some centralized organization pushing to EXPAND and working hard at "following Hubbard's admin tech", most or all of these major faults would vanish.

 

[Veda]

From a Tech outside the CofS Success Story:

"I retired from my job in 2001 and I reevaluated my position in Scientology. I had about $150,000. in my savings. I could either leave that money for my kids to spend when I died or I could spend it on myself in Scientology. Even though I had made no attempt to get additional training or processing for 37 years, I chose the latter....

"It is now my intention to go to OT XV with Pierre. I look forward to what I know will be an exciting and very rewarding journey. "

 

[Gadfly]

From a Tech outside the CofS Success Story:

"I retired from my job in 2001 and I reevaluated my position in Scientology. I had about $150,000. in my savings. I could either leave that money for my kids to spend when I died or I could spend it on myself in Scientology. Even though I had made no attempt to get additional training or processing for 37 years, I chose the latter....

"It is now my intention to go to OT XV with Pierre. I look forward to what I know will be an exciting and very rewarding journey. "

Can a person actually spend $150,000 OUTSIDE the Church? If so, then the prices do NOT seem to be a "great deal cheaper". And, this person had already spent how much money over the earlier 37 years? What was this $150,000 buying??? :confused2:

And, I suppose, in reality, some of these Indies surely pull out the same "hard-sell" issues they referred to while in the Church and HEAVILY PUSH the notion that "ONLY WE, THE SCIENTOLOGISTS, HAVE THE TECH OF FREEDOM", "time is running out", and "this is YOUR only chance out of many trillions of years to make it out of the trap that Ron so clearly mapped out for you". If all of THAT lunacy still exists, then, yeah, not much difference between in or out.

And, VWD to Pierre and others like him if they can find such suckers to pay such LARGE amounts of money for "Scientology".

 

[Smilla]

Independent Scientology washes as white as the leading brand, but at a fraction of the price!

Yup!

It's always fascinating to try to figure out what the hell the difference is between CoS Scientology and Indie Scn.

As far as I can tell, here is what they are selling, respectively:

Church of Scientology: TOTAL FREEDOM (from psych-implanted mest universe)

Indie Scientology: TOTAL FREEDOM (from psychotic-implanted cob universe)​

 

[Dulloldfart]

Can a person actually spend $150,000 OUTSIDE the Church? If so, then the prices do NOT seem to be a "great deal cheaper". And, this person had already spent how much money over the earlier 37 years? What was this $150,000 buying??? :confused2:

And, I suppose, in reality, some of these Indies surely pull out the same "hard-sell" issues they referred to while in the Church and HEAVILY PUSH the notion that "ONLY WE, THE SCIENTOLOGISTS, HAVE THE TECH OF FREEDOM", "time is running out", and "this is YOUR only chance out of many trillions of years to make it out of the trap that Ron so clearly mapped out for you". If all of THAT lunacy still exists, then, yeah, not much difference between in or out.

And, VWD to Pierre and others like him if they can find such suckers to pay such LARGE amounts of money for "Scientology".

A few years ago I heard of a FZ auditor charging $250-$300 an hour, and some around $75. I know another who would charge $20 or $30, sometimes less.

Two years ago I heard Pierre offered "the Ls" for a flat rate of $10,000, although this was very second-hand info.

$150k for FZ services seems excessive. Although with Ron's Orgs having 48 OT levels or whatever, that's only $3000 each.

Paul

 

[Smilla]

Jabba needs all your money so he can eat even more tasty pies and get even fatter.

 

[asteroid]

It's always fascinating to try to figure out what the hell the difference is between CoS Scientology and Indie Scn.

As far as I can tell, here is what they are selling, respectively:

Church of Scientology: TOTAL FREEDOM (from psych-implanted mest universe)

Indie Scientology: TOTAL FREEDOM (from psychotic-implanted cob universe)​

It can be hard to tell what the Freezone / Independent Scientology is "selling" because -- unlike the CoS -- in the Freezone it's okay to have differing opinions. Which is a major distinction all on its own.

It's like Protestantism, which can encompass everything from Lutheran (pretty much the same as Catholicism minus a pope) to Bible-thumping evangelical Baptists. There are people who believe that LRH got everything just-about-right (and usually feel that everything went to hell in a handbasket because of Miscavaige); there are other people who feel that the tech largely works but LRH screwed up on the admin side. Some feel that everything must be done exactly the way it was in a golden age (said "golden age" defined as "when everything was going well for me and those around me"... maybe the 1960s, maybe the 1980s...); others see value in what the CofS would deem "other practices."

And many shades of grey even within those areas (i.e. "The tech is great and useful... until you get to the OT levels").

That's just on the tech side, where the base assumption is "This stuff can help me solve problems." The viewpoints diverge rather wider when it comes to the "Green volumes," such as Scn Ethics, organization charts, marketing, and many of the other things you mention. I don't think anyone has done a full survey (I think it'd be hard to do so as many of us, myself included, avoid being "counted") but based on private conversations I'd say that 75% of Freezoners rejects 75% of the Admin stuff. Or at least feel that it's out of date (i.e. LRH may have been accurate about "how to advertise" in 1957 but it's no longer applicable).

As with other communities in which people are free to have their own opinions, people do not always agree, and they can sometimes disagree rather passionately. In most cases the disagreements are with respect rather than (as my spouse was told by a Bible-thumper many years ago) "You are a sinner and will never be saved!" Personally I appreciate the freedom to disagree, and I listen carefully to their viewpoints. After all, I never learn anything if I listen only to those who agree with me.

 

[Veda]

It can be hard to tell what the Freezone / Independent Scientology is "selling" because -- unlike the CoS -- in the Freezone it's okay to have differing opinions. Which is a major distinction all on its own.

It's like Protestantism

-snip-

We've heard this before.

But there's no need for tap dancing. Relax and calmly say:

"Freezone/Independent Scientology make available the LRH Bridge to those outside the CofS."

And that's the reason for the Freezone/Independent Scientology existing.

Don't be nervous. Don't be ashamed. Don't be embarrassed.

Stand tall!

 

[asteroid]

But there's no need for tap dancing. Relax and calmly say:

"Freezone/Independent Scientology make available the LRH Bridge to those outside the CofS."

And that's the reason for the Freezone/Independent Scientology existing.

Don't be nervous. Don't be ashamed. Don't be embarrassed.

Oh I'm not embarrassed or ashamed. I am simply wordy.

 

[Terril park]

Can a person actually spend $150,000 OUTSIDE the Church? If so, then the prices do NOT seem to be a "great deal cheaper". And, this person had already spent how much money over the earlier 37 years? What was this $150,000 buying??? :confused2:

And, I suppose, in reality, some of these Indies surely pull out the same "hard-sell" issues they referred to while in the Church and HEAVILY PUSH the notion that "ONLY WE, THE SCIENTOLOGISTS, HAVE THE TECH OF FREEDOM", "time is running out", and "this is YOUR only chance out of many trillions of years to make it out of the trap that Ron so clearly mapped out for you". If all of THAT lunacy still exists, then, yeah, not much difference between in or out.

And, VWD to Pierre and others like him if they can find such suckers to pay such LARGE amounts of money for "Scientology".

Prices not cheaper?

What is referred to is $150,000 for OT XV.

Thats seven levels above the CO$ current OTVIII. Which is in itself suspct.

Were COS to deliver whatever they are I'm sure $150,000
would be cheap.

However I've never heard Pierre mention such levels as ones he
could deliver. Next time I meet I'll ask him about it.

There is no "Hard Sell" in the FZ that I've ever heard of. And I'm
really connected!

Currently the likes of Pierre and Trey Lotz are booked up solidly for nearly a year. Karen will be so soon also I expect.

 

[Veda]

Prices not cheaper?

What is referred to is $150,000 for OT XV.

Thats seven levels above the CO$ current OTVIII. Which is in itself suspct.

Were COS to deliver whatever they are I'm sure $150,000
would be cheap.

However I've never heard Pierre mention such levels as ones he
could deliver. Next time I meet I'll ask him about it.

There is no "Hard Sell" in the FZ that I've ever heard of. And I'm
really connected!

Currently the likes of Pierre and Trey Lotz are booked up solidly for nearly a year. Karen will be so soon also I expect.

Don't fool yourself, the FZ has its own version of "hard sell." People leaving the CofS, who "want their Bridge," are usually very vulnerable.

One question is, "Is Pierre accepting 'advance payments' for his much promoted but apparently non-existent OT levels 9 -15?

 

[guanoloco]

Prices not cheaper?

What is referred to is $150,000 for OT XV.

Thats seven levels above the CO$ current OTVIII. Which is in itself suspct.

Were COS to deliver whatever they are I'm sure $150,000
would be cheap.

However I've never heard Pierre mention such levels as ones he
could deliver. Next time I meet I'll ask him about it.

There is no "Hard Sell" in the FZ that I've ever heard of. And I'm
really connected!

Currently the likes of Pierre and Trey Lotz are booked up solidly for nearly a year. Karen will be so soon also I expect.

Terril,

This is interesting commentary. How about the lower Bridge? Is there a demand for like a Grad V or Class VI or is it all OT levels and what not?

 

[Terril park]

It can be hard to tell what the Freezone / Independent Scientology is "selling" because -- unlike the CoS -- in the Freezone it's okay to have differing opinions. Which is a major distinction all on its own.

It's like Protestantism, which can encompass everything from Lutheran (pretty much the same as Catholicism minus a pope) to Bible-thumping evangelical Baptists. There are people who believe that LRH got everything just-about-right (and usually feel that everything went to hell in a handbasket because of Miscavaige); there are other people who feel that the tech largely works but LRH screwed up on the admin side. Some feel that everything must be done exactly the way it was in a golden age (said "golden age" defined as "when everything was going well for me and those around me"... maybe the 1960s, maybe the 1980s...); others see value in what the CofS would deem "other practices."

And many shades of grey even within those areas (i.e. "The tech is great and useful... until you get to the OT levels").

That's just on the tech side, where the base assumption is "This stuff can help me solve problems." The viewpoints diverge rather wider when it comes to the "Green volumes," such as Scn Ethics, organization charts, marketing, and many of the other things you mention. I don't think anyone has done a full survey (I think it'd be hard to do so as many of us, myself included, avoid being "counted") but based on private conversations I'd say that 75% of Freezoners rejects 75% of the Admin stuff. Or at least feel that it's out of date (i.e. LRH may have been accurate about "how to advertise" in 1957 but it's no longer applicable).

As with other communities in which people are free to have their own opinions, people do not always agree, and they can sometimes disagree rather passionately. In most cases the disagreements are with respect rather than (as my spouse was told by a Bible-thumper many years ago) "You are a sinner and will never be saved!" Personally I appreciate the freedom to disagree, and I listen carefully to their viewpoints. After all, I never learn anything if I listen only to those who agree with me.

Hoaxie is defined by his name and is very funny.

I'm an OEC/FEBC grad. I like lots of the green on white specially the
Data Series. Unfortunately there are parts of this that are toxic.

I like this overview of problematic areas in green on white.

http://www.freezoneearth.org/HolyCows/index.htm

 

[Zhongjianren]

I just finished the book. With regard to the topic of this thread, the following may be of interest. In the Acknowledgements on page 424, after thanking many named and unnamed "former and current Scientologists who shared with [Reitman] their joys, sorrows, fears, hopes, and disapointments during [her] five years of research into this mysterious and often incomprehensible church," Reitman states:

That a number of them still value L. Ron Hubbard's techology, if not the organizational management of the Church of Scientology -- and were eager to differentiate between the two -- is a testament to the growing number of Scientologists who hope to form an independent, and free, movement. I wish them all the best of luck in doing so.

I realize for many ex-Scientologists Reitman's expression of support for "an independent, and free, movement" will be intolerable, and as a result they may hesitate buy and read the book. For what it is worth, as an ex-Scientologist who has read every critical book, and has been following this critical scene since the ARS days, I think that would be a mistake.

The book is very well researched, very well written and very good. Yes, she tells the OTIII story. Yes, she shows Hubbard's fabrications. And yes, most importantly, she shows how the dictatorial and authoritarian "management tech" predates DM, and has its foundation in Hubbard's "scriptures."

Don't get me wrong, it is not the definitive objective history of the Church of Scientology or the subject of Scientology. (In my estimation, no single book is.) Of the 17 chapters (excluding the Introduction and the Epilogue), the last ten are devoted to the reign of DM and the history of the Church post 1980. But while the book may not alone be sufficient to understand Scientology and the COS for that reason, it is also necessary the same reason. It is the book that should be read after reading the earlier critical books in order to get the most recent history of the COS.

The book has one additional advantage over other objective, if not critical, books, albeit an advantage that will be lost on many, if not most, ex-Scientologists. That advantage is that Independent Scientologists, Freezoners, and current, but wavering or doubting, COS Scientologists will actually read it. In Scienntology terms, it is something they can confront. It is not "out-gradient." It is being recommended on Marty's blog, and people are reading it.

 

[degraded being]

I just finished the book. With regard to the topic of this thread, the following may be of interest. In the Acknowledgements on page 424, after thanking many named and unnamed "former and current Scientologists who shared with [Reitman] their joys, sorrows, fears, hopes, and disapointments during [her] five years of research into this mysterious and often incomprehensible church," Reitman states:
I realize for many ex-Scientologists Reitman's expression of support for "an independent, and free, movement" will be intolerable, and as a result they may hesitate buy and read the book. For what it is worth, as an ex-Scientologist who has read every critical book, and has been following this critical scene since the ARS days, I think that would be a mistake.

The book is very well researched, very well written and very good. Yes, she tells the OTIII story. Yes, she shows Hubbard's fabrications. And yes, most importantly, she shows how the dictatorial and authoritarian "management tech" predates DM, and has its foundation in Hubbard's "scriptures."

Don't get me wrong, it is not the definitive objective history of the Church of Scientology or the subject of Scientology. (In my estimation, no single book is.) Of the 17 chapters (excluding the Introduction and the Epilogue), the last ten are devoted to the reign of DM and the history of the Church post 1980. But while the book may not alone be sufficient to understand Scientology and the COS for that reason, it is also necessary the same reason. It is the book that should be read after reading the earlier critical books in order to get the most recent history of the COS.

The book has one additional advantage over other objective, if not critical, books, albeit an advantage that will be lost on many, if not most, ex-Scientologists. That advantage is that Independent Scientologists, Freezoners, and current, but wavering or doubting, COS Scientologists will actually read it. In Scienntology terms, it is something they can confront. It is not "out-gradient." It is being recommended on Marty's blog, and people are reading it.

Is this quote:

"....That a number of them still value L. Ron Hubbard's techology, if not the organizational management of the Church of Scientology -- and were eager to differentiate between the two -- is a testament to the growing number of Scientologists who hope to form an independent, and free, movement. I wish them all the best of luck in doing so...." Being used to turn the book into something the FZers WANT it to be.? Reitman is writing from a different perspective from some other writers in the past simply because history moves on. The internet has helped to unify the FZers, to make them more visible as a group and as individuals. And, Reitman must spend a lot more time talking about DM than some others did in the past, simply because he has now been running things for quite a while, and Hubbard, being dead, must be treated differently than he was before (in some aspects). But surely Reitman deals with the evils of elron too? ( I have not read the book). If so, why would FZers or those in doubt, but not out, find this book more tolerable than past books? Because it is a "better gradient" or because Marty and other FZers will choose to "not is" the truths about Ron (presuming that they are there in the book) and take a one sentence acknowldgement/support, plus the historical neccessity to deal with DM these days, and try to make it their own FZ manifesto??? Marty was onto that faster than a rat up a drain pipe, and I expect the FZers, dishonest as they are, and maniplulative as they are to be full steam ahead on the badwagon.

 

[moxnox]

I read Janet Reitman's book over the past few days. It filled in many missing pieces for me as I was way on the edge of Scn in Portland, OR and have been out since the late 70's. Miscavige came in after I was out and had always seemed a clownish semi-scary character who takes himself much too seriously. After reading how he seems to have enjoyed abusing people I'm really happy I wasn't around to see it or experience his version of leadership. I've had a few bad bosses over the years but he is repellant. He and Mr. Cruise were made for each other.
I'm left now worrying about my sister in the Sea Org in Hollywood. I'm thinking of ways to give her an escape route if she needs it.