Jesse Prince or Marty Rathbun: Which do YOU believe?

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Marty wrote a post last night talking about Fair Game vs The Responsibility of Leaders - which LRH policy caused more fanaticism and abuse in Scientology?

Marty says it was The Responsibility of Leaders because of David Miscavige and how mean, mean, mean he is.

But then he let a post through by Jesse Prince, and then actually answered on a real subject.

Their accounts seem to differ. But did Marty really address the point?

No. He didn't.

Jesse Prince | November 2, 2010 at 5:31 am | Reply
I’m glad you brought up this subject of how the crimminality and destructive behavior escalated to what it is today in Scientology. I will start by saying I am not an L Ron Hubbard hater. I am also not an L Ron Hubbard adorer either. I just want to bring up personal knowledge that I have concerning Miss Cabbag’s odd behavior of abusing staff. The behavior of attacking staff DID NOT start with Miss Cabbage or Marty R or anyone else. Here is how it started from my eye wittness account. The year was 1982. The majority of International management (Exec Strata and CMO INT) had been removed from post. Out of that group of people there were two of them that really irritated L Ron personally. The two people I am refering to here is John Attack and David Mayo. For those who were around in 1983, there was RTC Conditions Order #1, a Com Ev on about 12-18 people. The exact number that comes to mind was about 18, but on this I could be mistaken but it was an unsual amount of people on the bill of particulars. I was either a member or secretary of that comm ev that went on for months. During this time RTC as well as ASI and CMOI would send up weekly reports to L Ron on the state of affairs with Int Mgmt ..etc. A report was sent to him each week concerning the comm ev and L Ron would often order this or that investigation of the people being comm ev’d. John Attack was the Exec Strata person over Div 6 activities and L Ron pretty much hated John and I understand hate is a strong word but so were the circumstances. To make a long story short, I read an advice from L Ron to Miss Cabbage ordering him to spit in John’s face and tell him that was from L. Ron. Miss Cabbage complyed with his order and reported the result. I saw the advice that came back to the compliance report of spitting in John’s face and L Ron was very pleased to here the news and escalated the situation by suggesting someone should slap the hell out of John Attack. Sure enough, as John was held by others, John was beaten by Miss Cabbage. Similar degrading actions were taken with David Mayo and this soon spread to others deemed to be SP’s. Prior to this it was unheard of at least by me for any staff member to attack another staff member. In fact it was a serious ethics offence to attack a fellow staff member. I knew Miss Cabbage before he was asked by L Ron to attack staff. He NEVER put a hand on any staff member period and I knew him for years prior to his orders to attack staff members. His wife Shelly would also encourage other executives to abuse staff in this manner and if they didn’t they were accused of having their finger falter on the trigger of a gun. In other words, pull the trigger. God only knows what the hell she was talking about but there you have it. It is so important to have the truth known so that people are not confused.
Marty's response, blaming David Miscavige for everything, and L Ron for nothing.

I think there is a pattern here.

martyrathbun09 | November 2, 2010 at 11:42 am | Reply
Jesse, Thanks. First, I am sure you are talking about John Aczel and not John Atack. LRH didn’t know John Atack from a ground hog. Part of the picture you are missing is what was being sent directly to LRH from DM out of the then-LA unit Special Project (later to become ASI). That is where the reports concerning “All Clear” were sent – not via the Int base. That is where the grand conspiracy reports were sent from. Including the fact that Aczel and Mayo were clearly on the payroll of FBI and APA.
Really Marty?

David Mayo was working for the American Psychiatric Association AND the FBI??
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
And here Marty tells us the difference between a "critic" and a "hater".

martyrathbun09 | November 2, 2010 at 11:53 am | Reply A critic might listen to answers or explanations for their continual barrage of critical questions and commentary, and perhaps those answers might effect his or her views. A hater just keeps pouring it on. Every answer or explanation, or any context provided, merely reinforces his or her hateful viewpoint.
I think it is very important for newly out independents to examine Marty's thinking. To really look at and test this guy's statements.

Examine what he says, test it for yourself. Do these things really add up?

You do not want to go from one crazy, illogical, monomaniacal cult leader to another, do you?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Marty is really revealing himself lately - what he really thinks and believes.

He is laying it out for all to see now.
Ensifer | November 2, 2010 at 4:57 am | Reply //My response was, and is, that 99% of staff, including the Sea Org, have not even heard of the Fair Game policy, so of course they do not apply it.//
Huh? Well, I don’t know about the current SO, but I assure you that during the period of time from when the policy was written and when I departed in 1982 both the disconnect policy and Fair Game were widely known and used in the LRH-run Scientology. The Fair Game policy less so because, in my view, most staff had neither the desire or resources to attempt to compromise people who had been “declared”.
As for Kinglsey Wimbush and the whole “de-dinging” thing… you got it wrong there. What Kingsley did was to try and apply a specific procedure to the daily “dings” he observed people getting as a matter of regular contact with others. He tried to persuade me to initiate a similar program in my mission and so I went to Santa Clara and observed the whole process. There was none of what you say… particularly the bit about Kingsley attempting to set himself up as the ‘power source’ and get people to donate money directly to him. Wimbush was declared by Miscavige at the SFO Mission Conference in 1982 for the simple reason that DM and the RTC wanted the reserves held in the Mission accounts. The ‘de-dinging’ thing was harmless and if it was some sort of out-tech then it could have been easily handled without removing a productive Mission Holder who had flowed hundreds of people and millions of dollars up to Orgs and Flag.
I understand you have an unfailing dedication to the image of Hubbard as the source of pure Scientology Tech but frankly for many of us Miscavige was the end point of our misadventure, not the beginning or the journey. Hubbard was the guy who created policies like the disconnection policy and he created the RPF and the Sea Org along with the huge potential it has for abuse… much of it realized after his death, but plenty of the abuses occurring on his watch.
Personally, I don’t see why anyone would demand you blame Hubbard unless they are part of the clique who desire to see Scientology (and I assume all other belief systems and self-help organizations) destroyed. On the other hand, why sugar-coat it? Hubbard created the policies and the very organizations that morphed into the warped and demented senior management groups you, Rinder and many other ex-Scn folks worked for over the decades. While it appears to be true that Miscavige has taken it to an art form whereas Hubbard merely got ill and passed away it’s still his baby, his creation. All of it.
I appreciate many of the things I read here while also finding some of them naive and petty. The bottom line is not that Hubbard was a bad man… because I don’t know that… but that this guy Miscavige is a bad guy and he still has some sort of eerie grip on many of our friends and family. And I don’t see how you can separate the two… Miscavige or Hubbard. Hubbard made it, died, and now Miscavige has hit the thrusters and taken abuse of staff and demands for public donations to stratospheric levels.
L. Ron Hubbard will always be the guy who created the apparatus that David Miscavige uses to abuse people. Good luck trying to keep them separate.

martyrathbun09 | November 2, 2010 at 11:58 am | Reply
Sugar coat? Read the post my friend. One policy to the exclusion of thousands of others. As Jesse points out – and Chuch Beatty has too – LRH wrote some hateful and aggressive despatches in the early eighties. His wife was going to jail, all board members of the mother church were going to jail, the DOJ had two grand juries outstanding trying to send him to jail. So, perhaps some ‘ends justify the means’ policies were emphasized at THAT TIME. To take an emergency situation, and turn it into STANDARD OPERATING POLICY, is not only suppressive it is a form of mind control. I suggest you work on your differentiation skills my friend.

Windhorse | November 2, 2010 at 12:52 pm | Reply
Marty, I’ve always found it unfortunate, when some says …my friend … When clearly that is not the intention.
Ensifer isn’t your friend at least doesn’t curry your favor, thus why call him friend.
I knew the de-dinging stuff is Kingsley and it had to do with getting rid of the daily and sadly incessant times staff and public were dinged … Times someone either yelled, slammed, made less of, appeared to gossip about you … The stuff orgs and missions found in too much quantity.
It’s impossible for me not to agree with Ensifer. Leadership, good leadership, works tirelessly to use it’s power to the benefit of others, so that they have peace and prosperity.
And, to my mind, doesn’t issue policies which could be used as a means to bludgeon others. Even if only 98% take the policy to that extreme.
Furthermore, ultimately we owe any power we have to ourselves and to our own recognition that we are basically good and therefore trustworthy. That we need not default to aggression, jealousy, pride.
Our lives our ours. To imply or encourage anything else is to ultimately have a flock of sheep and slaves.
Love,
WH.

martyrathbun09 | November 2, 2010 at 1:35 pm | Reply
Because I am trying to remind Enisfer that he is not my superior. He wants to get didactic with me and condescending with FALSEHOODS? He communicates like a holier than thou know best. He needs to come down a few notches and realize he is simply a “friend.”
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Silly n00b question #3216585165713546821321: what, exactly, is a "ding"?
 

Veda

Sponsor
The 12 February 1967 Policy Letter 'Admin Know-How, the Responsibility of Leaders' -a.k.a. The Bolivar Policy Letter - on the topic of how a subordinate should relate to his "power" (i.e. Hubbard and the "Organization."):

"[The power asks] 'What are those dead bodies doing at the door'. And if you [the subordinate] are clever, you never let it be known HE [the power] killed them - that weakens you and also hurts the power source. 'Well, boss about all those dead bodies, nobody at all will suppose you did it. She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn't like me'. 'Well', he'll say if he really is a power, 'Why are you bothering me with it if it's done and you did it. Where's my blue ink?...

"...always push power in the direction of anyone on whose power you depend. It may be more money for the power, or more ease, or a snarling defense of the power to the critic, or even the dull thud of one of his enemies in the dark, or the glorious blaze of a whole enemy camp as a birthday surprise...

"...Real powers are developed by tight conspiracies of this kind... and if they are right and also manage their man [the power] and keep him from collapsing from overwork, bad temper or bad data, a kind of juggernaut builds up."


http://www.xenu-directory.net/victims/meister1.html

A bullet hole in the middle of her forehead, but no powder burns.
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
OMG

I'm banned from Marty's blog now, so I have to do everything here, by the way.

Dang it!! :duh:

I always hoped that I would be able to be around once he began to come unglued.

Here's the link to his latest post where he actually, finally, addresses something of substance:

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/11/02/worse-than-fair-game/#comments

OMG, I can't get through this (the link, Marty's latest). This is dribble, and hogwash, lrh/dm brainwash hogwash. This is WHY he has not apologized. He is so far stuck in it, that he cannot see the truth when it is all around him.

It was ironic, the parts I did read. Ironic . . . like with lrh . . .
Projection . . .

:omg:

I'll will read it on another day. Maybe. This is so disheartening.
 
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skydog

Patron Meritorious
What is Marty's point?

I am sorry you were banned from posting on Marty's blog Alanzo-you must be devastated. I don't understand his point. What difference does it make if Miscavige's actions are dictated by the Fair Game policy or the Responsibility of Leaders policy. Both policies were written by Hubbard, not Miscavige.

Incidentally, all factors being equal, I would tend to believe Jesse Prince before I believed Marty. Just saying. . .
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I am sorry you were banned from posting on Marty's blog Alanzo-you must be devastated. I don't understand his point. What difference does it make if Miscavige's actions are dictated by the Fair Game policy or the Responsibility of Leaders policy. Both policies were written by Hubbard, not Miscavige.

Incidentally, all factors being equal, I would tend to believe Jesse Prince before I believed Marty. Just saying. . .

I had to read it a few times before I got it.

At least I think I got it.

I think he is saying that the reason L Ron Hubbard ordered David Miscavige to spit in David Mayo's face as part of a standard Scientology justice action - and then tell him it was from Ron - was because David Miscavige had been reporting to LRH that David Mayo worked for the FBI and the American Psychiatric Association.

In other words, the reason Hubbard give these orders to David Miscavige for physical abuse and have him carry them out was not Hubbard's fault - it was Miscavige's "3rd party" which caused all this.

It's either that, or Marty actually believes that David Mayo and the other guy were working for the FBI and the APA, and that is why the physical abuse was ordered by LRH to be carried out by David Miscavige on them.

Either way, physical abuse was ordered by L Ron Hubbard as a standard justice action when he was alive and running Scientology.

That is what is being revealed by Jesse Prince on Marty's blog right now.
 
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afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I personally knew Mayo and Aczel. Marty’s assertions re: APA and FBI clearly indicate that, as I have said before, in his mind he’s still SO, he’s doing his Billion Year Contract for El Ron, he’s The Loyal Officer, he’s "The Lieutenant" from “Final Blackout”.

Plenty of folks that knew Mayo have torched Marty’s Mayo drivel here and elsewhere, including me.

John Aczel was a kind, gentle and somewhat bookish Brit that was actually one of the primary folks that invented and developed “Tours” and "Reach Out" back in the late ‘60’s to early ‘70’s. John was a Div 6er through and through and was very devoted to Scn and El Ron. John’s biggest fault was that when his senior was doing something absolutely stupid (which happened often in the top exec strata, John would calmly, almost meekly, ask simple little questions that when answered revealed to the person that was asked the question just how stupidly they were acting.

The idea that after nearly 15 years of faithful, loyal and distinguished service John Aczel was on the take from the APA or FBI is more than a stupid statement—it is delusional. The shack flock need to really sit down and take stock of whom they so gushingly say has “got their back” and is leading them forward.

When Marty’s blog started I thought Scn Lite was more a good thing than a bad thing. Now I’m not so sure. Marty was not a “Victim of DM and Int”…Marty helped DM make Int the hell on earth that it is.

More and more Marty appears to me to be DM Lite.

Face:)
 
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Mystic

Crusader
Banned from Marty's blog! My hero :thewave:

And whilst we're on this almost non-subject, most of the good folks the Marty thing needs to categorize as "LRH haters" are not haters at all, but simply fact revealers, highly advanced comedians, highly observant folks with smiles on their faces and those who can accurately report regarding the Hubbard tulpa without the scientology implant filter in operation.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Gawd I am glad I don't give a shit about Scientology anymore. The crap just keeps going and going.

But I curiously lurk still... to see what's the latest, I guess.

But the whole Marty thing is boring to me. What is he really able to accomplish? Nothing, it seems. :confused2:

I've just gotten on with my life, and happy that Scn has no hold on me whatsoever. Mentally or physically. Yay.

Marty, ramble on!
 

Krautfag

Patron Meritorious
I'm banned from Marty's blog now, so I have to do everything here, by the way.

Dang it!! :duh:

I always hoped that I would be able to be around once he began to come unglued.

Here's the link to his latest post where he actually, finally, addresses something of substance:

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/11/02/worse-than-fair-game/#comments

Don't worry, he'll lift the ban when he feels it is strategically useful.

Me, I stopped posting (and reading for the most part) when he came up with the AMA/APA tinfoil stuff and in the same comment line trashed ESMB.

No use talking with crazy.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
And John Acxel (correct spelling of his name) is still in the SO. At least up to when I left in 04.

I guess they like to keep the FBI/APA members on their payroll? :dieslaughing:
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Banned from Marty's blog! My hero :thewave:


Thank you.

I'm think of writing my Great American Novel now with "Banned From Marty's Blog" as the title.

What do you think?


And whilst we're on this almost non-subject, most of the good folks the Marty thing needs to categorize as "LRH haters" are not haters at all, but simply fact revealers, highly advanced comedians, highly observant folks with smiles on their faces and those who can accurately report regarding the Hubbard tulpa without the scientology implant filter in operation.

I think you are absolutely correct here.

What Marty says are "haters" are people who are simply no longer willing to lie about Scientology to anyone any more. They believe that people need to know the truth about Scientology.

That is what Marty calls a "hater".

I think that the reason Marty continually disappoints me is because I had such high hopes for him. But just like Face said, Marty is DM lite.

And given his age and the number of decades he spent doing everything Miscavige told him to do to "destroy beings" - as he admitted on his blog today - I see no reason to think he is going to change.

From now on, Marty will not disappoint me.

He can now only pleasantly surprise me when and if he ever writes or does something good.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Gawd I am glad I don't give a shit about Scientology anymore. The crap just keeps going and going.

But I curiously lurk still... to see what's the latest, I guess.

But the whole Marty thing is boring to me. What is he really able to accomplish? Nothing, it seems. :confused2:

I've just gotten on with my life, and happy that Scn has no hold on me whatsoever. Mentally or physically. Yay.

Marty, ramble on!

That's good, Bea.

I should fuckin do that some day....:duh:
 
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Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
More and more, Marty and the Gushers fall into the trap of 'Tech Degrade' in daring to assume that Ron should *not* be taken literally. That some things Ron said/wrote were meant as 'jokes'.

Even and despite the fact that Ron was *very* clear that He very literally meant everything he said and that it was a High Crime to even suggest otherwise.

Zinj
 
What's this?

Yet another thread on ESMB that concerns Marty Rathbun.

Lets look at the facts shall we?

1. Constant threads on ESMB concerning Marty Rathbun. Just take a look in the archives.

2. No articles on Marty's blog concerning ESMB or members of ESMB.

3. Members of ESMB running over to Marty's blog posting over there.

4. Except for one time when Marty came here to let others know about his blog and to acknowledge the beingness of this message board, never comes over to ESMB to post.

There's three things I've come to realize about this message board:

1. Marty and the independents are in the front seat of the reformation of the church of scientology and ESMB is in the back seat ( if not the trunk ).

2. ESMB is filled with nothing but low toned, degraded, bitter, 1.1 and 1.5 members constantly attacking others, joking & degrading and name calling.

3. The reactive mind and R6 rules here.
 
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