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Jesse Prince or Marty Rathbun: Which do YOU believe?

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
Allright.. Lying deliberatly is immoral.. Is it more or less immoral to deliberatly change ones 'reality' and then tell the lie 'truthfully'?

:splat:
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Allright.. Lying deliberatly is immoral.. Is it more or less immoral to deliberatly change ones 'reality' and then tell the lie 'truthfully'?

:splat:

:lol:

Well that’s the question isn’t it?

It is certainly much more dishonest to oneself. I mean, if you can’t be honest with yourself, there is something seriously wrong. And what does that do to one’s sanity? :ohmy:

And I wouldn't mind so much, but Scientology was supposed to be the opposite of all that.

Axiom142
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Of course, Scientology is specialized in Doublethink:

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.. ”

“ The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth. "

But, what I'm calling a *lie* here is something said in full knowledge of its falseness and with the deliberate intention to create a false perception. That's what makes Marty's lies lies; and Marty a liar, *beyond* the realm of the usual MindFuck.

Zinj
 

Good twin

Floater
You mean a thread attempting to lesson, degrade or tare me down?

You guys are good at that aren't you?

That's all that goes on here isn't it?

Why don't you guys talk about something positive for once?

Do really mean lesson? Or did you mean lessen? Did you mean tare? Or do you mean tear?

Yeah we totally rock at all of the above. But that is not really all that goes on here. So why are you still hanging around? I'm completely serious now. If I didn't like these guys, I sure wouldn't hang around with them.

Do you have anything nice to say about any of us? That would be cool. :thumbsup:

Maybe it's part of the language barrier, but it seems like you don't like us. Whenever that happens we get kinda rowdy. Jus' sayin'.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I'm banned from Marty's blog now, so I have to do everything here, by the way.

Dang it!! :duh:

I always hoped that I would be able to be around once he began to come unglued.

Here's the link to his latest post where he actually, finally, addresses something of substance:

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/11/02/worse-than-fair-game/#comments

I'm not banned. Marty just asked me to detail LRH attempts to jail Paulette Cooper.

I qouted :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout

http://www.holysmoke.org/pc/pcof1.htm

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/cooper/frk.html

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/cooper/clearwater.html

Personally I'd prefer stronger links, but not being a critic I don't collect them.

Anyone have an URL to an FBI document saying she was framed?
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I had to read it a few times before I got it.

At least I think I got it.

I think he is saying that the reason L Ron Hubbard ordered David Miscavige to spit in David Mayo's face as part of a standard Scientology justice action - and then tell him it was from Ron - was because David Miscavige had been reporting to LRH that David Mayo worked for the FBI and the American Psychiatric Association.

In other words, the reason Hubbard give these orders to David Miscavige for physical abuse and have him carry them out was not Hubbard's fault - it was Miscavige's "3rd party" which caused all this.

It's either that, or Marty actually believes that David Mayo and the other guy were working for the FBI and the APA, and that is why the physical abuse was ordered by LRH to be carried out by David Miscavige on them.

Either way, physical abuse was ordered by L Ron Hubbard as a standard justice action when he was alive and running Scientology.

That is what is being revealed by Jesse Prince on Marty's blog right now.

Marty says DM was lying.

Another poster backed up Jesse's comment that LRH asked DM to spit on mayo, or John whatever.

Its a very bold and good move for Marty, this blog post. He may not have exactly the same viewpoint as thee and me re LRH, if we have the same,
but he's looking and encouraging others to look.

Also like that he promotes non COS books to read.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I am now fairly certain that Marty is not capable of creating or managing a less abusive form of Scientology.

Anyone could.

Marty's doing good and expanding to let the likes of Ensifar post.
And me for that matter.

What did you do to piss him of this time?
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Another thread about Marty? :eyeroll:

Oh well, I might as well join in. And start with the initial question.

Who do I believe out of Jesse Prince and Marty Rathbun?

Well both actually. Not 100%, but I believe that each speaks from their own perspective and experiences. If you had a dozen people all view the same complex series of events and asked them afterwards what they saw, you’d probably get a dozen different descriptions.

Knowing this, we can then read the various accounts of The Story of Scientology and be alert to the inevitable discrepancies and inaccuracies.

I think Rathbun tells it as he sees it (with perhaps a large dash of how he wants it to be) and Prince does the same. Of course, you might say that Prince has long since left Scientology behind and has no stake in the future of Scientology, independent or otherwise, but I find both their viewpoints interesting and valuable.

My own belief, based on actual observations is that when someone has been in the Sea Org for an extended period of time, especially in the upper echelons such as RTC, their thinking and cognitive processes are severely affected. It can take a great deal of time to fully recover, if indeed they ever will.

I think Rathbun talks some sense and I believe that his intentions are basically good, but when he makes claims that Mayo and Aczel were in the employ of the FBI and the APA, I have to shake my head in sadness. I wonder if he ever stops to consider that this is just the sort of thing that current SO members are saying about him and will continue to believe even when they leave the SO?

But, the good news is that he is prepared to listen to some contrary views (but apparently only from the ‘right’ sort of people. No riff-raff obviously. [Pointedly looks at Alanzo] ) and perhaps the truth will gradually percolate its way through the dross of cultic conditioning?

Axiom142

Hey Ax, I consider it interesting that Marty clearly has great respect for Jesse. Currently I'm not considered riff raff. But watch this forum. :)
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Anyone could.

Marty's doing good and expanding to let the likes of Ensifar post.
And me for that matter.

What did you do to piss him of this time?

I asked why the fake names, secrecy and shore stories at Creston when LRH moved in, per Sarge's story.

And I invited everybody over to ESMB to hear 1st hand LRH stories from the ESMBers here who knew LRH and worked with him for decades.

That was it for me on Marty's Blog.

Jettisoned.... shot from guns..... toasted, I think they call it.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I asked why the fake names, secrecy and shore stories at Creston when Sarge was there.

And I invited everybody over to ESMB to hear 1st hand LRH stories from the participants here.

That was it for me on Marty's Blog.

Jettisoned.... shot from guns..... toasted, I think they call it.

Hmm. My guess is you'll be back!
 

nozeno

Gold Meritorious Patron
I asked why the fake names, secrecy and shore stories at Creston when LRH moved in, per Sarge's story.

And I invited everybody over to ESMB to hear 1st hand LRH stories from the ESMBers here who knew LRH and worked with him for decades.

That was it for me on Marty's Blog.

Jettisoned.... shot from guns..... toasted, I think they call it.

th_Toastcopy.jpg
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
I asked why the fake names, secrecy and shore stories at Creston when LRH moved in, per Sarge's story.

And I invited everybody over to ESMB to hear 1st hand LRH stories from the ESMBers here who knew LRH and worked with him for decades.

That was it for me on Marty's Blog.

Jettisoned.... shot from guns..... toasted, I think they call it.
Well there's your mistake, right there, Al.
You can't go writing shit like that and not expect Marty to apply some Standard Tech to stop the writing.
After all, "If it isn't written, it isn't true."

(I anticipate an eye-opening thread on this datum coming soon to a Message Board near you.)
 

Mystic

Crusader
Moar MRs and DMs

I have had a MAJOR COGNITION, FN/TA for hours and hours and days and days and weeks and weeks.

What we need are a few more Martys and Davies!!!! Just the two of them is not enough.

This would markedly enhance the entertainment value of The Game.

We well know the entire agonized future of every man, woman, child and alanzo on this planet is dependent upon what MR and DM do here and now, with and in the superfluous Hubbard-tulpa spew called scifaggOTry.

Which will wear the Pink Legs?

Which camp will ablaze?

Oh the popcorn and tinfoil of it all!!!!
 

skollie

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm not banned. Marty just asked me to detail LRH attempts to jail Paulette Cooper.

I qouted :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout

http://www.holysmoke.org/pc/pcof1.htm

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/cooper/frk.html

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/krasel/cooper/clearwater.html

Personally I'd prefer stronger links, but not being a critic I don't collect them.

Anyone have an URL to an FBI document saying she was framed?

It looks like King Marty did not want his followers reading those as the links have not made it into your post on his blog. He certainly has a hard time handling the truth.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I asked why the fake names, secrecy and shore stories at Creston when LRH moved in, per Sarge's story.

And I invited everybody over to ESMB to hear 1st hand LRH stories from the ESMBers here who knew LRH and worked with him for decades.

That was it for me on Marty's Blog.

Jettisoned.... shot from guns..... toasted, I think they call it.

There is only one Sarge for me, and it's not the jackass on Marty's blog.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hello Folks. Face here…AKA the “Anti Sarge”.

Me thinks Marty is doing the “Standard” handling in true Scn and So style. Some of Marty’s flock is straying…lurking places they shouldn’t be. SOP is to create an “Inner Circle”, a place or zone you cannot go to or remain in unless you follow the rules and are “In Ethics”.

He’s using Terril, Ensifer, Adams and, off and on, Alonzo to troll is own board. He’s running an “Intel Op” to see who’s what and what’s who.

He’s consolidating his “core” flock and will make a few “strategic” moves or announcements in the not too distant future.:coolwink:

Face:)

PS: I do hope Reck will come back out to play...he's a real gas.:yes:
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
Learn as much as you can....

Are you saying that mankind and this planet didn't have any problems before Scientology came along?

I give you the dark ages, slavery and both world wars as examples that came before Scientology.

What's your solution Mr. Joker?

Where's your body of work or books written to help your fellow man Schwim?

You are asking for a solution thereckoning?

Try to learn as much as you can in (and from leading) this life. Keep your eyes open - never stop to observe with your own eyes. Never stop to think with your own mind. Never stop to be yourself but allways keep an open mind and be open to change your point of view. Fight for your freedom and the freedom of speech. Help others if they need your help. Love yourself and find somebody to love.
Have fun and take time to rest and meditate regulary or if you need it.
And don't trust people who claim that they found the only truth especially if they want your money or slave work for it.

Best
Markus
 
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