Jesse Prince speaks out - Now It Begins

[Gadfly]

Jessie also has a much clearer view on the role L Ron Hubbard played in the violence perpetrated by David Miscavige.

Regardless of the circumstances (LRH was apparently getting false and/or distorted information), DM did not start using direct physical violence until explicitly instructed to do so by L Ron Hubbard.

Hubbard has always been the animating force behind everything BAD about Scientology. He IS the "basic" on the chain.

Terril recently posted that good intentioned staff and SO members were betrayed. They were betrayed. They were betrayed by a Founder who DUPED THEM, and who fed off of their GOOD and CARING HEARTS, and their lofty intentions to "help" and make a "better world". HUBBARD has ALWAYS BEEN SOURCE, and he is the SOURCE of all the misery.

Hubbard set it up that way. It is sad to say, but each and every staff member and SO member was set up from the very start to LOSE. You were all duped. And, I am sorry to add that your good intentions are not alone enough to carry the day - because the subject itself is inherently contradictory, flawed and based on a mountain of deceit. All you really EVER had was your OWN goodness, but that goodness was taken advantage of and abused by Hubbard and his nutty organization.

But, for anyone, there does come a time to call it quits (hello all staff and Sea Org members). Nothing can make a broken car run, and the Church of Scientology, based on the "works" of L. Ron Hubbard, will always remain broken. Hubbard built it with shoddy parts, stolen from many others, and designed it to function as long as YOU alone were willing to allow yourself to be drained of life and energy. But, it won't get you where you originally dreamed. Find another target and via for your dreams. They are more commonly available than you might have ever imagined.

++++++++++++

 

[Jquepublic]

Hubbard has always been the animating force behind everything BAD about Scientology. He IS the "basic" on the chain.

Terril recently posted that good intentioned staff and SO members were betrayed. They were betrayed. They were betrayed by a Founder who DUPED THEM, and who fed off of their GOOD and CARING HEARTS, and their lofty intentions to "help" and make a "better world". HUBBARD has ALWAYS BEEN SOURCE, and he is the SOURCE of all the misery.

Hubbard set it up that way. It is sad to say, but each and every staff member and SO member was set up from the very start to LOSE. You were all duped. And, I am sorry to add that your good intentions are not alone enough to carry the day - because the subject itself is inherently contradictory, flawed and based on a mountain of deceit. All you really EVER had was your OWN goodness, but that goodness was taken advantage of and abused by Hubbard and his nutty organization.

But, for anyone, there does come a time to call it quits (hello all staff and Sea Org members). Nothing can make a broken car run, and the Church of Scientology, based on the "works" of L. Ron Hubard, will always remain broken. Hubbard built it with shoddy parts, stolen from many others, and designed it to function as long as YOU alone were willing to allow yourself to be drained of life and energy. But, it won't get you where you originally dreamed. Find another target and via for your dreams. They are more commonly available than you might have ever imagined.

++++++++++++

You're absolutely right. It's a sinking ship, and nobody needs to go down with it.

I'm glad Jesse is still around and blogging. I do wish his posts weren't the size of War and Peace though! But I'd rather that than too little info - just makes it really hard to read at work.

 

[Mystic]

I like this thread.

 

[AlphOhm]

Not sure if Jesse reads here or not--but thanks man.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

double post -- delete

 

[Gottabrain]

Hubbard has always been the animating force behind everything BAD about Scientology. He IS the "basic" on the chain.

Terril recently posted that good intentioned staff and SO members were betrayed. They were betrayed. They were betrayed by a Founder who DUPED THEM, and who fed off of their GOOD and CARING HEARTS, and their lofty intentions to "help" and make a "better world". HUBBARD has ALWAYS BEEN SOURCE, and he is the SOURCE of all the misery.

Hubbard set it up that way. It is sad to say, but each and every staff member and SO member was set up from the very start to LOSE. You were all duped. And, I am sorry to add that your good intentions are not alone enough to carry the day - because the subject itself is inherently contradictory, flawed and based on a mountain of deceit. All you really EVER had was your OWN goodness, but that goodness was taken advantage of and abused by Hubbard and his nutty organization.

But, for anyone, there does come a time to call it quits (hello all staff and Sea Org members). Nothing can make a broken car run, and the Church of Scientology, based on the "works" of L. Ron Hubard, will always remain broken. Hubbard built it with shoddy parts, stolen from many others, and designed it to function as long as YOU alone were willing to allow yourself to be drained of life and energy. But, it won't get you where you originally dreamed. Find another target and via for your dreams. They are more commonly available than you might have ever imagined.

++++++++++++

Gadfly, you are really on a roll today. Thank you, again.

Yes, Hubbard was a spiritual vampire, a black hole. Pure evil. Scn was and still is the vehicle to suck out the dreams, life and energy for whoever sits on top of it - DM, MR, whomever.

Thanks for all your posts today. You've given me some different insights, and it's also nice that we see so many things similarly.

Mystic, I'm really enjoying this thread, too!

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Jesse,

Standing ovation here for the truth of your words.

It gets lost easily in the vast ocean of lies, half-truths & deception of Scientology.

Thanks, cuz. Way to throw it down!

 

[Infinite]

. . . <snip> . . . Hubbard set it up that way. It is sad to say, but each and every staff member and SO member was set up from the very start to LOSE. You were all duped. And, I am sorry to add that your good intentions are not alone enough to carry the day - because the subject itself is inherently contradictory, flawed and based on a mountain of deceit. All you really EVER had was your OWN goodness, but that goodness was taken advantage of and abused by Hubbard and his nutty organization . . . <snip> . . .

Scientology - polishing bricks on the the road to hell since 1950.

 

[Gadfly]

Gadfly, you are really on a roll today. Thank you, again.

Yes, Hubbard was a spiritual vampire, a black hole. Pure evil. Scn was and still is the vehicle to suck out the dreams, life and energy for whoever sits on top of it - DM, MR, whomever.

Thanks for all your posts today. You've given me some different insights, and it's also nice that we see so many things similarly.

Mystic, I'm really enjoying this thread, too!

I am like many other ex-Scientologists, in that I had very HIGH HOPES when I first got in. I really thought that I had finally found the "answer". I mean, LRH told me, over and over, that he had found the answer! He even also told me that if something is asserted over and over, with authority, that most people will believe it! He was right about the last part, and very wrong about the first part.

I invested my heart and soul, at least in the beginning. When I signed that Sea Org contract, I really did have the romantic vision of working shoulder-to-shoulder with an elite group of wonderful, caring, spiritually-oriented beings. The problem, I quickly learned, is that the organization was bat-shit crazy, based on exact application of many LRH policies, and also that there was FAR TOO MUCH PR and lying going on all of the time. Simply, the "ideals" Hubbard asserted did not at all correspond to reality. The actuality of what was going on in organized Scientology was so VERY FAR REMOVED from what I thought that I had originally signed up for. I didn't stay in the SO for more than a few years, because it was just NOT AT ALL what I thought I had been getting involved in.

Another big problem is that Hubbard did explain some things in ways that few or none ever did before, such as the nature of universes and their basis in postulates and agreements. He really did have some brilliant stuff. Axiom 38, and the issue on Personal Intergity. Just wonderful.

And, I could not dismiss that I went fully exterior on both TRs and auditing, and that it was the most PERFECT state of beingness that I had up until then ever experienced. To deny THAT would be a lie.

So, the problem for me was, how do I make sense of this mountain of contradictions? I kept going along for awhile because of the small bits of brilliant stuff, the amazing "key outs", but mainly because KSW kept getting rammed down my throat. In the end, if one doesn't buy into the whole KSW story, it is not so hard to walk away.

I have always been able to comfortably live with contradictions, so I kept along for awhile, with one "good pile" and one "bad pile". But, as time went on the "bad pile" kept growing, disproportionately so.

I used to think that possibly Hubbard had good intentions early on, but that he went haywire in the mid 1960s (when he wrote KSW). But, as I did more and more reading about his past, as I watched him speak live in lectures, and as I came to learn about the very NASTY side of OSA and the GO, well I now have the attitude that he intentionally set it up as a mind-fuck right from the start. That doesn't mean that he wasn't brilliant, that there aren't juicy morsels of "truth" strewn randomly throughout the subject, but only that his basic aim was deception and entrapment. Possibly for some "black magical" aim. Possibly as a way to siphon energy from others to himself. Obviously, it didn't "work" to empower him, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't continue to harm various people.

I cannot honestly say that I any longer have the opinion that he EVER had the aim to truly "help" anyone. That some people may have been "helped" in some manner, was either accidental or necessary to the overall bigger picture he was involved in.

The BIGGEST factor of entrapment involves the "help button". There was a thread recently where a poster got very indignant (it may have been The Oracle), and she went off on a sort of tirade about, "I will never apologize for being in the Sea Org", and "I was there doing my very best to make a better world". I was going to write a ripping response, but something held me back. Mainly, I could see that she was dead serious about it. I also remembered where a poster recently commented that I must have been out for so long or never had any concern for the 3rd dynamic at all, for me to say whatever I had said. It was a bit uncomfortable, because I really did NOT want to go back 25 years and re-mock up what my state of mind was back then in the Sea Org. But, I did. And, I let the whole thing simmer in my mind for a day. And then it really hit me!

The BIGGEST HOOK of all of Hubbard's hooks was the HELP BUTTON. Again, he tells you straight out in his materials that people have been betrayed with HELP so often in the past, and that people have a BIG button on it. And again, after he tells you ALL ABOUT IT, he uses that exact bit of data to TRAP YOU.

These people were and are still there largely because they are some of the possibly few people on the planet who are willing to dedicate their lives to helping Man. They are giving up normal lives for an ideal. But, and this is a HUGE "but", the IDEAL is a scam!!!!!!!!!!!!! And, yes, there are some there who are just royal assholes. Who are happy to keep perpetuating the scam.

Hubbard designed the Sea Org, and the Sea Org continues to run, along with all Scientology organizations, almost solely on the GOOD INTENTIONS & FUNDAMENTAL DESIRE TO HELP of largely good and decent people. But the actuality of the IDEAL that Hubbard spells out is a lie and a scam. Now, THAT is fucking EVIL!

++++++++++

 

[Panda Termint]

^^^This is true!^^^

 

[Veda]

This last is interesting. I believe it refers to the original OT levels which I've read not all did so well on.

NOTs was in the 1981 or so bridge the remedy to handle such problems,
and not a bridge level.

There is a separate issue. Many of extremely good intentions joined COS and the SO.

They were betrayed. That some try to remedy that even if not perfectly is
a good thing.

Yes they were betrayed, by Hubbard.

It was in 1980/1981 (perhap earlier) that Hubbard decided to replace old OT 4 - 7 with New OT 4 - 7. In January 1982 appeared the new New Grade Chart with these changes. This was Hubbard's idea. It was also Hubbard's idea to effectively butcher the middle Grade Chart three/four years earlier, for, according to David Mayo, "PR and marketing" reasons.

If one can get a hold of an original copy of 'What is Scientology?' from 1978, there is a bar graph showing the number of "Clears" for each year from 1965 onward. By the early 1970s the numbers began to slow, and by 1977 the bars in the graph, for the last couple of years, were almost even. Production of Scientology Clears had slowed to almost nothing. People were doing introductory services at places like Missions - which Hubbard was concerned were becoming too powerful and collecting too much money, money which Hubbard wanted - and then not going on to "upper Orgs."

There were still rich public going to Flag, but even their numbers were decreasing. So what to do?

Hubbard decided to "discover" that lots and lots of people were *already* Clear, and should exit Missions and go "up lines" to do their OT levels. This would increase drastically the "number of Clears" (by re-defining what a "Clear" was), and bring people and their checkbooks and credit cards "up lines" to AOs and to "Flag."

And so Hubbard said, "Where are the Clears? Why, they are right there!!!" and presto - true to the hypnotic nature of the psycho-political operation called Scientology, carefully crafted over decades, by Hubbard, in what was supposed to be "mental-healing"-coated, Intelligence (blackmail) and money-collecting machine, maintained, at low and mid levels, by an army of foot solders acting as de facto slave labor, and promoted by pampered celebrities getting the red carpet treatment - amazingly, there were the "Clears," lots and lots of them.

And in the middle of this were the - often - affluent, and very "middle class," Mission holders.

When Hubbard wrote of the evils of the "middle class mentality" in the late 1970s, the days of the affluent Mission holders were numbered. After "Dianetic Clear," when C/Ses and EDs at Missions balked at sending public "up lines" as "Clears," per the new downgraded definition of "Clear," the clock of doom - for them - ticked ever faster.

Then came Hubbard's changes to the old "upper" OT levels. They became NOTs, NOTs and more NOTs.

To place this in context, after the July 1977 FBI raid, Hubbard had had a physical and mental collapse. When he rebounded, he had began to make changes. He had instructed, in the early 1970s, that he did not want to be identified with having been a Science Fiction writer, but now he was again - for personal therapy - writing Science Fiction again, and plans were under way to promote him as one of the "greatest Science Fiction writers of the all time!", etc. Then there was "Dianetic Clear" and the elimination - for most - of Power Processing, old R6EW,a and the old Clearing course. It really didn't make sense, but so what? Ron said it was so, and that was enough. And, let's face it, the old Grade Chart, above "Power" didn't make much sense either - really. It just was, and one had been expected to adjust one's thinking to it.

Now there was a new middle and upper Grade Chart and Scientologist were expected - and most did - adjust their thinking to that.

Was Hubard also looking at the stats - those bar graphs - for people doing their OT levels after attesting to "Dianetic Clear"? By the early and mid 1980s, lots of people were "stalled" at "Dianetic Clear," meaning they weren't going on to their OT levels. One can see Hubbard's mind working. What to do? How was he to get his "mental healing"-coated psycho-political operation running again, with the accompanying increased cash slow, new de facto slave labor being recruited, good PR and publicity, new celebrities, and himself hailed at the great man of the age?

Mmmmm....

Hubbard had, in place, a nearly "perfect" mind-control cult by the mid 1970s, but greed and paranoia got the better of Hubbard, the July 1977 FBI raids happened, and Hubbard, the Operating Thetan, started to unravel.

Funny thing is, the old time Scientology Zoners and Scientology Independents think of that time - when Scientology was at its peak as a destructive cult - as "the good old days."

 

[Mystic]

Sleezy bastard that Hubbard thing.

 

[FoTi]

Thanks for the post, Jesse.

In the BBC video it mentions that Marty was a high level auditor and it also infers that he was, I think it said, a confessor for TC, JT and Kirsty Alley. If this isn't so, maybe somebody should straighten out the BBC on this. Maybe they could do another segment with the truth?

 

[TEoS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqBA9qcu0Ws

 

[Infinite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqBA9qcu0Ws

Woah!! That puts a slightly different slant on it, doesn't it? Just after joining the Sea Org Marty gets covered in the blood, guts, brain and bone of someone he's supposed to be protecting, then has the gun turned on him but manages to walk away because the shooter is out of bullets. In that hugely traumatised state, he then receives an abundance of "auditing" - man, talk about getting programmed!!

 

[degraded being]

Quote from Jesse Prince;

".... According to L Ron, when asked to tell the “truth” about something, in essence it meant being debriefed like a spy. All the details are required: What did you see? Not what did you think! Who was there? Where did the event happen? Was it at a party? Was there a meeting? I mean they break it down so that no stone is left unturned. In Scientology, truth is determined solely on a person’s ability to observe and report accurately what was observed. Thinking or forming an opinion about what is observed is not part of the process. I don’t think they even notice it among themselves but there is very little excessive verbal talking in the Sea Organization. Anyone looking in from the outside would think they were all mind readers. When we would talk it sounded like a different language than the one I speak today. Very few outsiders had a clue of how Sea Org members would be in perfect lock step when working together without a lot of talk. In the Scientology culture you will get investigated for criminal activity if you talk too much and this is not a joke.
The definition of truth as practiced in Scientology served me well as I battled them in court rooms. By applying this detailed definition of the truth in my testimony, even a third party (any judge I ever faced) recognized the accuracy and detail of my testimony as coming from one who was there and knows. ....."

Looking forward to hearing some of the other "Elite" ex SO members, using the skills above, being as honest as Jesse.

 

[Bank Account Cleared]

Quoting Veda from the above entry

"Funny thing is, the old time Scientology Zoners and Scientology Independents think of that time - when Scientology was at its peak as a destructive cult - as 'the good old days.'"

Though I don't know much about the Zoners and Independents, I continue to find myself amused and befuddled when people talk about "the good old days." Where and what the F were they doing then???

Mr. LRH's organization was rough, bureaucratic, rag-tag, dishonest, cruel, and uncaring, most of all to its staff. Mr. COB has simply made it more elegant. Terminator 2 versus Terminator 1.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Thanks for the post, Jesse.

In the BBC video it mentions that Marty was a high level auditor and it also infers that he was, I think it said, a confessor for TC, JT and Kirsty Alley. If this isn't so, maybe somebody should straighten out the BBC on this. Maybe they could do another segment with the truth?

As far as I know it is true.

Jesse didn't say Marty never did any tech training. He said he didn't get promoted to the ranks of the top insiders based on tech training but his "other skills."

Per Marty's writings he did his training on the ship later on. And Jesse did leave in 1992.

Paul

 

[BunnySkull]

As far as I know it is true.

Jesse didn't say Marty never did any tech training. He said he didn't get promoted to the ranks of the top insiders based on tech training but his "other skills."

Per Marty's writings he did his training on the ship later on. And Jesse did leave in 1992.

Paul

Yes all his training, in-between being as I believe Aaron Saxton put it "being drilled like a piece of wood" via sec checking by Greg Wilhere aboard ship in the wake of his blow after the IRS decision. Many others have pointed out the true reason the Freewinds was chosen for Martys RPF was to avoid subpoenas.

We only have Marty's word to take on his super RPF tech training aboard the Freewinds that made him a techie supreme. He also makes claims to being auditor to the stars, again we take his word on it. I don't doubt DM would have him handle some celebs, but more for controlling and security reasons than any favors he would be doing for a celebs well being, which we know the cult never gave two shits about.

Most of his tech training claims come down to taking Martys word on it, and he is the very reason his "word" means jackshit to most Scios, critics, and public. A career built on lying and deceit tends to have that effect strangely enough.

 

[Gadfly]

Yes they were betrayed, by Hubbard.

It was in 1980/1981 (perhap earlier) that Hubbard decided to replace old OT 4 - 7 with New OT 4 - 7. In January 1982 appeared the new New Grade Chart with these changes. This was Hubbard's idea. It was also Hubbard's idea to effectively butcher the middle Grade Chart three/four years earlier, for, according to David Mayo, "PR and marketing" reasons.

If one can get a hold of an original copy of 'What is Scientology?' from 1978, there is a bar graph showing the number of "Clears" for each year from 1965 onward. By the early 1970s the numbers began to slow, and by 1977 the bars in the graph, for the last couple of years, were almost even. Production of Scientology Clears had slowed to almost nothing. People were doing introductory services at places like Missions - which Hubbard was concerned were becoming too powerful and collecting too much money, money which Hubbard wanted - and then not going on to "upper Orgs."

There were still rich public going to Flag, but even their numbers were decreasing. So what to do?

Hubbard decided to "discover" that lots and lots of people were *already* Clear, and should exit Missions and go "up lines" to do their OT levels. This would increase drastically the "number of Clears" (by re-defining what a "Clear" was), and bring people and their checkbooks and credit cards "up lines" to AOs and to "Flag."

And so Hubbard said, "Where are the Clears? Why, they are right there!!!" and presto - true to the hypnotic nature of the psycho-political operation called Scientology, carefully crafted over decades, by Hubbard, in what was supposed to be "mental-healing"-coated, Intelligence (blackmail) and money-collecting machine, maintained, at low and mid levels, by an army of foot solders acting as de facto slave labor, and promoted by pampered celebrities getting the red carpet treatment - amazingly, there were the "Clears," lots and lots of them.

And in the middle of this were the - often - affluent, and very "middle class," Mission holders.

When Hubbard wrote of the evils of the "middle class mentality" in the late 1970s, the days of the affluent Mission holders were numbered. After "Dianetic Clear," when C/Ses and EDs at Missions balked at sending public "up lines" as "Clears," per the new downgraded definition of "Clear," the clock of doom - for them - ticked ever faster.

Then came Hubbard's changes to the old "upper" OT levels. They became NOTs, NOTs and more NOTs.

To place this in context, after the July 1977 FBI raid, Hubbard had had a physical and mental collapse. When he rebounded, he had began to make changes. He had instructed, in the early 1970s, that he did not want to be identified with having been a Science Fiction writer, but now he was again - for personal therapy - writing Science Fiction again, and plans were under way to promote him as one of the "greatest Science Fiction writers of the all time!", etc. Then there was "Dianetic Clear" and the elimination - for most - of Power Processing, old R6EW,a and the old Clearing course. It really didn't make sense, but so what? Ron said it was so, and that was enough. And, let's face it, the old Grade Chart, above "Power" didn't make much sense either - really. It just was, and one had been expected to adjust one's thinking to it.

Now there was a new middle and upper Grade Chart and Scientologist were expected - and most did - adjust their thinking to that.

Was Hubard also looking at the stats - those bar graphs - for people doing their OT levels after attesting to "Dianetic Clear"? By the early and mid 1980s, lots of people were "stalled" at "Dianetic Clear," meaning they weren't going on to their OT levels. One can see Hubbard's mind working. What to do? How was he to get his "mental healing"-coated psycho-political operation running again, with the accompanying increased cash slow, new de facto slave labor being recruited, good PR and publicity, new celebrities, and himself hailed at the great man of the age?

Mmmmm....

Hubbard had, in place, a nearly "perfect" mind-control cult by the mid 1970s, but greed and paranoia got the better of Hubbard, the July 1977 FBI raids happened, and Hubbard, the Operating Thetan, started to unravel.

Funny thing is, the old time Scientology Zoners and Scientology Independents think of that time - when Scientology was at its peak as a destructive cult - as "the good old days."

Great post and wonderful interpretation of the various events of the time periods.

And, all of this time I thought that L. Ron Hubbard kept changing (improving) the Grade Chart due to his in-depth, advanced and selfless research, all conducted because he CARED SO MUCH for us!!!!! NOT!

+++++++