Jon Atack: Stop Hurting Each Other

[AnonKat]

i havn't seen any malice here lately

some LIVELY! 2wc perhaps...

You are a christian ?

[video=youtube;tl8acXl3qVs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl8acXl3qVs#t=200[/video]

 

[AnonKat]

I concur. I don't see the point in arguing about "if the tech works or not". To me, that's just a matter of opinion. I've come to my conclusions based on my own life's journey. If someone else feels different, then that's their right as an adult. ( Just don't try to shove it down my throat).

We (as people) go to war over religion. It really shouldn't be that black and white. There should be room for personal interpretation...AND TOLERANCE.

You just described my country

 

[FlunkYou]

You just described my country

Switzerland?

 

[AnonKat]

Switzerland?

Swiss to dick Hubbard was but no, The most Marxist country in the world and NUMBER 5 on the happy list

WE ARE ALL ORANGE

[video=youtube;B33vEkA7d_w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B33vEkA7d_w[/video]

 

[FlunkYou]

Swiss to dick Hubbard was but no, The most Marxist country in the world and NUMBER 5 on the happy list

WE ARE ALL ORANGE

[video=youtube;B33vEkA7d_w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B33vEkA7d_w[/video]

Awe man, Amsterdam is on my bucket list.

Looks like our spring break...with more clothes though.

[video=youtube;hq7rjO9eKUM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq7rjO9eKUM[/video]

 

[AnonKat]

YUP, We are pretty clear, Church of Scientology got a fuck you from our courts. FREE SPEECH goes beforer COPYRIGHT


suck my cock David Miscavige

Awe man, Amsterdam is on my bucket list.

Looks like our spring break...with more clothes though.

[video=youtube;hq7rjO9eKUM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq7rjO9eKUM[/video]

 

[Commander Birdsong]

You are a christian ?

[video=youtube;tl8acXl3qVs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl8acXl3qVs#t=200[/video]

perhaps...

or is it my pride and my conceit to be a christian?

 

[pollywog]

Sorry to nit pick but....if people are actually being nasty, the suggestion that this is (only) because they haven't recovered from scientology and that spitefulness, etc is just doing what was done to people in the cult........I don't agree with it.

It makes it sound like people were all saints before they got into the cult and never had negative interactions. I don't want to minimise whatever negative affects the cult had on people. It's just that people also pick up a lot of crap and before that ever get there and carry it through their lives.

I've never been a clam. I can be an incredible asshole. It's not exclusive to the cult. But I did like what Atack said. Maybe I won't be such an asshole any more. Err, okay, so often.

But the childish relentlessness (jeez, I just added "ness" to a word, didn't I?) of some in the ex community smells a little of an inability to let go of some of the TRs. Just saying.

 

[AnonKat]

perhaps...

or is it my pride and my conceit to be a christian?

Jesus was a Jew, nuff saID, FUCK YOU MELL GIBSON

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Jesus was a Jew, nuff saID, FUCK YOU MELL GIBSON

You wouldn't be referring to the actor who portrayed Mad Max, namely Mel Gibson would you? Tich tich. You may want to w/c M9 Jon Atack's article. Mimsey

 

[In present time]

^^^^^^^YES, THAT^^^^^^^^

yeah. it brings to mind someone i read on tony's blog today.
she was a "never in" but got caught up in the thing somehow, only to be railroaded out of town by the indies.
she wasn't specific about which blog or what.
but i wrestled with the indies for a couple of years.
actually they were the final straw.
the ones that made me see clearly that $cn. is a total fail.

it was just lucky for me, that marty linked to T.O., who was still on the village voice.
at first those people seemed over the top critical.
but when i interacted with them, they were kind to me.
even though i had one foot in the kool-aid pond.

the indies are mean spirited.
how's that for a goatse sized generalization?

but they are.

 

[Udarnik]

yeah. it brings to mind someone i read on tony's blog today.
she was a "never in" but got caught up in the thing somehow, only to be railroaded out of town by the indies.
she wasn't specific about which blog or what.
but i wrestled with the indies for a couple of years.
actually they were the final straw.
the ones that made me see clearly that $cn. is a total fail.

it was just lucky for me, that marty linked to T.O., who was still on the village voice.
at first those people seemed over the top critical.
but when i interacted with them, they were kind to me.
even though i had one foot in the kool-aid pond.

the indies are mean spirited.
how's that for a goatse sized generalization?

but they are.

They are also, as I Told You I Was Trouble is fond of saying, not competent to poke around in the psyche of anyone who has any sort of mental issue at all. Auditing has the potential to amplify mental illness, and their great Pilot killed himself. For a normal, well-adjusted person I guess it's mostly harmless (but that statement is based on not very much data or understanding, YMMV),. I come away with kind of the inverse of Ron's claim of making the able more able - if you are able, it won't cripple you. If you've got any handicaps, stay the fuck away.

 

[Albion]

...

It may be that I've been on too many ex-Scientology newsgroups and message boards and Facebook groups for too long.

But my patience for the automatic knee jerk reaction to someone who someone else doesn't agree with...


"You haven't lost the Scientology mindset."

"You're doing OSA's work."

"Scientology wants critics to fight so you're helping them by saying that..."


....is long gone.

To me, it's a lazy way of dealing with confrontation. It reminds me of when you're a kid and another kid says something to you that you don't know how to respond to. Rather than actually thinking of a bright comeback, you resort to calling him Fatty or whatever other nickname the kid has been stuck with.

It's the same thing. The purpose is to introvert the other person so that their energy is put into defending themselves rather than actually dealing with the issue...

*Gasps*

The Thought Police are on their way.

Actually, your point reminds me of the old therapist's line:

"You're in denial."
"No I'm not!"
"Aha!"

But in fairness to Jon, I don't think he's asking us to take the kind of attitude you're describing: in fact it could even be an example of the kind of thing he is talking about.

I'll call off the Thought Police, shall I?

 

[Panda Termint]

Lol, Jonny. Lulu Belle is as far from "in denial" or "Thought Police" about scientology as one can get, IMO. I like Jon's stuff very much but Lulu makes a valid point.

 

[Free to shine]

I have to confess. When I read that post about what Jon Atack said, my first reaction was....

....extreme annoyance.

I read A Piece of Blue Sky years ago, when I first got out. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Atack. He was - and I'm sure still is - a very brave soul. So I want to make it clear that this is not in any way directed at him.

It may be that I've been on too many ex-Scientology newsgroups and message boards and Facebook groups for too long.

But my patience for the automatic knee jerk reaction to someone who someone else doesn't agree with...


"You haven't lost the Scientology mindset."

"You're doing OSA's work."

"Scientology wants critics to fight so you're helping them by saying that..."


....is long gone.

To me, it's a lazy way of dealing with confrontation. It reminds me of when you're a kid and another kid says something to you that you don't know how to respond to. Rather than actually thinking of a bright comeback, you resort to calling him Fatty or whatever other nickname the kid has been stuck with.

It's the same thing. The purpose is to introvert the other person so that their energy is put into defending themselves rather than actually dealing with the issue.

All of us exes know we have issues being exes. We're all dealing with it in our own ways, the best we can. No one is helped by someone driving them back into the fact that they are an ex and have issues.

IMO, you'd be doing an ex a lot more of a service by simply saying "You are really acting like an asshole" than by playing the ex/OSA card.

Better yet, actually intelligently address what they are saying without dragging the whole ex-Scn thing into it.

Like I said, I've been on these boards way too long, I guess.

But I'm really over it.

Yes you're right too, the net is a weird old place. I've been on the odd board that ends up being uncomfortable so you just leave, and a few that have also provided the most incredible support you can imagine. Right now I am taking a break from all except to pass on news.

Jon says and I agree:

Hate the sin, but love the sinner, as St Paul had it. Hate the thought, but not the person who thinks it, as Gandhi said in agreement.

In this case, I say, hate the disease – Scientology – but not the person infected with it. The spiteful attitude, the rumour mongering and the self-righteousness are part and parcel of the Scientology implant.

The very nastiest of nasty people I have known are those with the scientology mindset, as I am sure many of us have experienced at one time or another. I can remember scenes when I was in that I look back on in horror. Sadly some exes do not actually know that a certain value or concept is shaping the way they speak as it can take quite a long time to identify those concepts. One I have seen is that when a person is held up for contempt in some way and then there is a rush of supporters and it flames into trying to squash someone into oblivion - it becomes personal - it becomes a dogpile. Of course that is not only due to scientology, but it is certainly exacerbated by it, I saw it many, many times. And I am over it.

So I agree with Jon.

I left Scientology, because I refused to treat people without regard for their humanity. I wouldn’t disconnect from anyone, and I certainly wouldn’t engage in malicious gossip. How about you? Could we try to play nice?

 

[Albion]

Sorry to nit pick but....if people are actually being nasty, the suggestion that this is (only) because they haven't recovered from scientology and that spitefulness, etc is just doing what was done to people in the cult........I don't agree with it.

It makes it sound like people were all saints before they got into the cult and never had negative interactions. I don't want to minimise whatever negative affects the cult had on people. It's just that people also pick up a lot of crap and before that ever get there and carry it through their lives.

Absolutely: but Jon covers these points in his piece...

Of course, such behaviour isn’t unique to Hubbard’s Dev-OTs...
Trolling has become a problem throughout the world, and we have seen the first court cases where such people have quite rightly been found guilty of serious abuse…
Of course, Scientology is not the only reason for people to become distressed. Some were angry before they became involved, and non-members also join in …

 

[AnonyMary]

I think what Jon Atack is saying is that the worst of it springs from strong, unresolved influencing agreements with propaganda we were fed, that we came to know and act upon during our times in Scientology. Like Fair game tactics, enforced ethics, PTS/SP crap, KR writing, like the Liability Formula the 'Strike a blow to the enemy of the group one has been pretending to be a part of' which eroded our moral compasses when it came to respecting others, being loyal to love, family, to ones innate beliefs before they were poisoned. The stimulus response reactions often come from the power that we perceived we had received from using these things to gain the 'freedom' many sought in Scientology. Scientology runs members by instilling fear...it is a very dog-eat-dog culture, leaving us with a 'handle it or you will get handled' , a 'I'm right, you are wrong' defense strategy on automatic... It's difficult to see when it is in play even years after leaving. Especially when it kicks in while in a group comprised of ex scientologists

 

[Albion]

Lol, Jonny. Lulu Belle is as far from "in denial" or "Thought Police" about scientology as one can get, IMO. I like Jon's stuff very much but Lulu makes a valid point.

You're right of course. I'm just messin'. But I wasn't
clear enough in my response.

What I was trying to say is that the logic of that therapy
joke is the same as what operates inside Scientology -- it's
not the Tech that's wrong, it's you.

As Lulu Belle points out, the same logic pops up in the online
flame wars. But that's the point that Jon is making too, surely.

Jon touches on this in his interview with Australian journalist
Steve Cannane at ABC, just posted here. Highly recommended.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

You're right of course. I'm just messin'. But I wasn't
clear enough in my response.

What I was trying to say is that the logic of that therapy
joke is the same as what operates inside Scientology -- it's
not the Tech that's wrong, it's you.

As Lulu Belle points out, the same logic pops up in the online
flame wars. But that's the point that Jon is making too, surely.

Jon touches on this in his interview with Australian journalist
Steve Cannane at ABC, just posted here. Highly recommended.

Jon touches on something - inadvertently I think - which does stir up feelings. It's the ever present desire in a lot of exes to inform others about what is wrong with them.

As Lulu has pointed out there are many similar behaviors in differing groups around the internet.

The best advice I have ever received on "getting over" Scientology was from Dennis Erlich (and several others since) - "Lose the vocabulary. Speak English, not Scientologese"

 

[Albion]

Jon touches on something - inadvertently I think - which does stir up feelings. It's the ever present desire in a lot of exes to inform others about what is wrong with them.

As Lulu has pointed out there are many similar behaviors in differing groups around the internet.

The best advice I have ever received on "getting over" Scientology was from Dennis Erlich (and several others since) - "Lose the vocabulary. Speak English, not Scientologese"

Funnily enough, that's one of his comments that has always stuck with me, too.

The other thing that I first heard from him and which struck me as a really
interesting parallel, was how he got to comparing notes with someone who
had been in an abusive relationship -- and they found themselves ticking the
same boxes. That comes at the whole mind control debate from a fresh angle,
and I think it's a very useful way of looking at it.