Karen de la Carriere Jentsch - a pillar of sanity amidst the insanity

RogerB

Crusader
So many perspectives on one post.
The first thing that caught my attention (and kept it) from this post was the fact that some poor sod had a security guard on him 24/7.

Not knocking the kudos to Karen for her kind handling, not knocking CN for his grateful words, not knocking Motti for posting....but for the love of God....a security guard 24/7 because he was deemed a security risk!!

What kind of church or self help group does that?

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Ahh, a really sane post on this thread! :yes:

Anonomog has stuck a stake through the heart of the thing . . . . a security guard 24/7 because of . . . WHAT? It appears from the OP some stupid shit or other had an opinion, and Karen saw the nonsense of it and corrected it. Well done Karen.

While we don't agree with the Cof$, or hold that the "OT Levels" are the greatest truth ever (when in fact they're fantasy) . . . within the context of our beliefs when we were in, Karen did good . . . and it's great the person she helped has been able to reconnect with her.

R
 

Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
....but for the love of God....a security guard 24/7 because he was deemed a security risk!!

What kind of church or self help group does that?

Security risk to escaping the madness, it happens in asylums too.
 
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Ahh, a really sane post on this thread! :yes:

Anonomog has stuck a stake through the heart of the thing . . . . a security guard 24/7 because of . . . WHAT? It appears from the OP some stupid shit or other had an opinion, and Karen saw the nonsense of it and corrected it. Well done Karen.

While we don't agree with the Cof$, or hold that the "OT Levels" are the greatest truth ever (when in fact they're fantasy) . . . within the context of our beliefs when we were in, Karen did good . . . and it's great the person she helped has been able to reconnect with her.

R

Precisely.


Mark A. Baker
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Whenever I see a thread entitled with the name of another ESMBer, I always feel rather uncomfortable. I mean, it’s like we are talking about someone when they are in the same room.

Obviously this doesn’t apply to me – I just lurv it when people are talking about me. :biggrin:

But I appreciate that this wasn’t the intent of Motti in creating this thread, it was a genuine attempt to give recognition to one of the special people that were so rare in the CoS.

I have never met Karen, but from what I have seen and heard, she is someone who really cares about helping others. Being a Class XII may or may not mean much to most ESMBers, and while I don’t accept that Hubbard taught the last word on truth and the Secrets of the Universe, I do respect anyone who had the dedication and ability to get themselves through this highest level of training. Having done a modicum of ‘Tech’ training myself I can have some appreciation of the titanic effort required to do this.

I suffered a mild shock reading the vicious attacks on this thread. This thread started as a simple “thank-you” note, and developed into world war 3. Certain people even went so far as to ascribe ulterior motives to the op (me). I will not argue with them. They're free to speculate to their heart's content.

Others fumed at the 'infiltration' of 'positive communication about Scientology or a Scientologist' into the ESMB forum. They asserted that this forum was the exclusive domain of those totally opposed to anything beginning with “Sci” or “Hub”, and people who thought differently should get the hell out of here and post elsewhere.

Still, many others received the original post at face value and acknowledged it for what it was.

When I posted it, I thought it might get 5, 6 replies at the most and be forgotten. I never imagined it would go to 144 replies in such short order and with such seething ferocity.

...

Well Motti, I’m afraid that you have had a rather rude education in what it means to post on a public forum about Scientology. I wish it weren’t this way, but I’ve long since realised that there isn’t much I can do to change things, I just try and make my points in as effective a way as possible and hope that someone listens.

Oh, and to make people laugh sometimes…

Whenever anything that looks as though it might be positive, is said about Scientology, Scientologists, the CoS or Hubbard, inevitably there is a storm of protest, usually involving the odd personal insult or two. :eyeroll:

This is entirely understandable – a lot of good people - have been seriously fucked over as a result of being in the cult, and many are very angry as a result.

Understandable, but it isn’t always very helpful to display this anger at every opportunity. Sometimes it might be better to objectively discuss what is before us, instead at railing against perceived outrages against our moral sensibilities.

I’m not saying that people are wrong to be angry, I just think that sometimes we can channel that anger in more positive directions.

What I see in the OP, is a simple story of one person caring enough to want to help another human being, even if it meant breaking a few rules. Unfortunately, this kind of display of humanity is all too rare in the CoS now. But, it is just this sort of act of kindness that made Scientology seem so special to me at one time.

Not any more, obviously.

I well remember my own situation, just a few years ago. I had received a lot of auditing at St Hill (supposedly the most ‘on-source’ in the UK. Hah!) and yet I was feeling totally distraught and wondering if my life was even worth living. Nothing made any sense, I wasn’t ‘winning’, I was getting more and more ‘caved-in’ by the constant invalidation and crushing regging. I really could have done with someone like Karen then. I would have left the cult anyway (eventually), but I really could have used a friend just then.

Yes, you could say that it might have been better if Karen had not done what she did and let that person leave much earlier than they had.

But I bet if you asked this person, they would say that they were glad that Karen showed them this kindness and cared enough to do something about their troubles. It is just this sort of act that makes us feel that there is also goodness in the world.

It does me anyway.

Infinite mentioned Schindler and interestingly, I had already been reminded of the incredibly moving scene from the film ‘Schindler’s List’ where Schindler is presented with a ring made from the gold fillings donated by the people he saved, inscribed with a quote from the Talmud, "Whoever saves one life saves the world entire."

The Jews that he saved aren’t angry with him for him using them in his factories or for being part of the evil Nazi regime – they recognise him for the good man that he is and thank him for doing what he could to save them.

I think that we too should recognise the good people in Scientology and acknowledge the good that they tried to do, despite the insanity around them.

It doesn’t mean that we support Scientology or any of the other stuff, it just means that we can accept that we were wrong, others were wrong, but there are some good people out there who tried to make things just a little better.

Axiom142
 

Gadfly

Crusader
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Ahh, a really sane post on this thread! :yes:

Anonomog has stuck a stake through the heart of the thing . . . . a security guard 24/7 because of . . . WHAT? It appears from the OP some stupid shit or other had an opinion, and Karen saw the nonsense of it and corrected it. Well done Karen.

While we don't agree with the Cof$, or hold that the "OT Levels" are the greatest truth ever (when in fact they're fantasy) . . . within the context of our beliefs when we were in, Karen did good . . . and it's great the person she helped has been able to reconnect with her.

R

From the original OP:

"The Flag zombies harassed him, wrong indications, labeled him "security risk" and appended a security guard to him 24/7 for absolutely nothing."

This sort of thing went on and probably still goes on frequently, because Hubbard wrote many policies that were quite obsessive regarding "security risks". I doubt it was entirely a case of some "stupid shit who had an opinion". I saw LOTS of stupid shit when I was involved with Scientology (pre-Miscavige and later), and it almost ALWAYS was based on some LRH advice or direction. Behavior doesn't usually just appear out of thin air, especially in the Sea Org. Somebody is always very closely pushing some LRH policy. I noticed that the wind constantly changed direction in the Sea Org, as some new set of priorities came down lines, again and again, with the CMO there "slamming in hard" whatever the "new most important thing was". Sometimes that was a fresh rough attitude on "security". I saw many friends and others go through such idiocy. The crap people who have to go through to jump through all the hoops. Some like to call these hoops "arbitrary", but the fact is that these pushes are ALWAYS based on LRH policy and some new evaluation of importances within that group.

What makes life in the Church so INSANE is that various policies can be interpreted different ways, depending on situations, and conflicts are COMMON. Scientologists often like to make it appear that "it is all sane and smooth if one just simply follows policy", but there are MANY DIFFERENT POLICIES, and different people place different ones in differing positions of seniority at different times. That is part of the nature of the problem with the subject and practice of Scientology - there is no "one correct approach". And THAT makes for a dog's breakfast of it - over and over and over. And, what makes the constant dilemma worse is that members are constantly hit with the notion that there actually is "one correct standard way to apply Scientoogy" (that is a dream, a delusion of sorts foisted upon members as some attainable "ideal").
 
... I doubt it was entirely a case of some "stupid shit who had an opinion". I saw LOTS of stupid shit when I was involved with Scientology (pre-Miscavige and later), and it almost ALWAYS was based on some LRH advice or direction. ...

That just tells me that there were a bunch of stupid shits and that lrh was among them. Roger got it right. :)


Mark A. Baker
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
SP32-20100613-134357-02.png



Sometimes you just need to cut somebody some slack.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Well Motti, I’m afraid that you have had a rather rude education in what it means to post on a public forum about Scientology.

-snip-

Whenever anything that looks as though it might be positive, is said about Scientology, Scientologists, the CoS or Hubbard, inevitably there is a storm of protest, usually involving the odd personal insult or two. :eyeroll:

-snip-

That's not necessarily true, and it's disappointing to see you say that.

I suggest that you read or re-read all of Motti's posts. It's mostly slick PR.

I've mentioned, and validated, "positives" in Scientology and have seldom been attacked, and that's because I'm on the level and not playing manipulative games.

Politeness is important; but honesty is more important.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Whenever I see a thread entitled with the name of another ESMBer, I always feel rather uncomfortable. I mean, it’s like we are talking about someone when they are in the same room.

Obviously this doesn’t apply to me – I just lurv it when people are talking about me. :biggrin:

But I appreciate that this wasn’t the intent of Motti in creating this thread, it was a genuine attempt to give recognition to one of the special people that were so rare in the CoS.

I have never met Karen, but from what I have seen and heard, she is someone who really cares about helping others. Being a Class XII may or may not mean much to most ESMBers, and while I don’t accept that Hubbard taught the last word on truth and the Secrets of the Universe, I do respect anyone who had the dedication and ability to get themselves through this highest level of training. Having done a modicum of ‘Tech’ training myself I can have some appreciation of the titanic effort required to do this.



Well Motti, I’m afraid that you have had a rather rude education in what it means to post on a public forum about Scientology. I wish it weren’t this way, but I’ve long since realised that there isn’t much I can do to change things, I just try and make my points in as effective a way as possible and hope that someone listens.

Oh, and to make people laugh sometimes…

Whenever anything that looks as though it might be positive, is said about Scientology, Scientologists, the CoS or Hubbard, inevitably there is a storm of protest, usually involving the odd personal insult or two. :eyeroll:

This is entirely understandable – a lot of good people - have been seriously fucked over as a result of being in the cult, and many are very angry as a result.

Understandable, but it isn’t always very helpful to display this anger at every opportunity. Sometimes it might be better to objectively discuss what is before us, instead at railing against perceived outrages against our moral sensibilities.

I’m not saying that people are wrong to be angry, I just think that sometimes we can channel that anger in more positive directions.

What I see in the OP, is a simple story of one person caring enough to want to help another human being, even if it meant breaking a few rules. Unfortunately, this kind of display of humanity is all too rare in the CoS now. But, it is just this sort of act of kindness that made Scientology seem so special to me at one time.

Not any more, obviously.

I well remember my own situation, just a few years ago. I had received a lot of auditing at St Hill (supposedly the most ‘on-source’ in the UK. Hah!) and yet I was feeling totally distraught and wondering if my life was even worth living. Nothing made any sense, I wasn’t ‘winning’, I was getting more and more ‘caved-in’ by the constant invalidation and crushing regging. I really could have done with someone like Karen then. I would have left the cult anyway (eventually), but I really could have used a friend just then.

Yes, you could say that it might have been better if Karen had not done what she did and let that person leave much earlier than they had.

But I bet if you asked this person, they would say that they were glad that Karen showed them this kindness and cared enough to do something about their troubles. It is just this sort of act that makes us feel that there is also goodness in the world.

It does me anyway.

Infinite mentioned Schindler and interestingly, I had already been reminded of the incredibly moving scene from the film ‘Schindler’s List’ where Schindler is presented with a ring made from the gold fillings donated by the people he saved, inscribed with a quote from the Talmud, "Whoever saves one life saves the world entire."

The Jews that he saved aren’t angry with him for him using them in his factories or for being part of the evil Nazi regime – they recognise him for the good man that he is and thank him for doing what he could to save them.

I think that we too should recognise the good people in Scientology and acknowledge the good that they tried to do, despite the insanity around them.

It doesn’t mean that we support Scientology or any of the other stuff, it just means that we can accept that we were wrong, others were wrong, but there are some good people out there who tried to make things just a little better.

Axiom142

As always AX, some sort of hero.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
That's not necessarily true, and it's disappointing to see you say that.

I suggest that you read or re-read all of Motti's posts. It's mostly slick PR.

You don't appear to see a difference between slick PR and
genuine thought.

I've mentioned, and validated, "positives" in Scientology and have seldom been attacked, and that's because I'm on the level and not playing manipulative games.[/QUOTE]

The above shows your manipulartive games.

Politeness is important; but honesty is more important.[/QUOTE]

You fail mostly on the first. Also the second.
 

Veda

Sponsor
You don't appear to see a difference between slick PR and
genuine thought.

I've mentioned, and validated, "positives" in Scientology and have seldom been attacked, and that's because I'm on the level and not playing manipulative games.

The above shows your manipulative games.

Politeness is important; but honesty is more important.

You fail mostly on the first. Also the second.

Please don't post while agitated. To prevent confusion, I corrected your faulty formatting.
 
What happened to the other PCs....and rpfers that were being kept prisoner that week, and the next week and all the previous weeks...years? Not to mention all the people being royally screwed over for all their loot.

Did Karen's stat go up when that specific PC got out of security and onto the next OT level?

It was after all at stat push land. That's the insane place where Karen worked sanely applying Ron's tech while all those other insane people applied DMs insane tek, insanely.

But that is unthinkable! Wash my mouth out with koolaid.
 

RogerB

Crusader
Axiom,

Your post above, #185 on this thread is one of the very best posts I've ever read on ESMB.

Thank you. It really is a masterpiece.

RogerB
 

Terril park

Sponsor
What happened to the other PCs....and rpfers that were being kept prisoner that week, and the next week and all the previous weeks...years? Not to mention all the people being royally screwed over for all their loot.

Did Karen's stat go up when that specific PC got out of security and onto the next OT level?

It was after all at stat push land. That's the insane place where Karen worked sanely applying Ron's tech while all those other insane people applied DMs insane tek, insanely.

But that is unthinkable! Wash my mouth out with koolaid.

It should be clear that Karen's concern were those who were
fucked over, and that she handled such matters.

Despite any possible adverse reactions.
 

jenni with an eye

Silver Meritorious Patron
Whenever I see a thread entitled with the name of another ESMBer, I always feel rather uncomfortable. I mean, it’s like we are talking about someone when they are in the same room.

Obviously this doesn’t apply to me – I just lurv it when people are talking about me. :biggrin:

But I appreciate that this wasn’t the intent of Motti in creating this thread, it was a genuine attempt to give recognition to one of the special people that were so rare in the CoS.

I have never met Karen, but from what I have seen and heard, she is someone who really cares about helping others. Being a Class XII may or may not mean much to most ESMBers, and while I don’t accept that Hubbard taught the last word on truth and the Secrets of the Universe, I do respect anyone who had the dedication and ability to get themselves through this highest level of training. Having done a modicum of ‘Tech’ training myself I can have some appreciation of the titanic effort required to do this.



Well Motti, I’m afraid that you have had a rather rude education in what it means to post on a public forum about Scientology. I wish it weren’t this way, but I’ve long since realised that there isn’t much I can do to change things, I just try and make my points in as effective a way as possible and hope that someone listens.

Oh, and to make people laugh sometimes…

Whenever anything that looks as though it might be positive, is said about Scientology, Scientologists, the CoS or Hubbard, inevitably there is a storm of protest, usually involving the odd personal insult or two. :eyeroll:

This is entirely understandable – a lot of good people - have been seriously fucked over as a result of being in the cult, and many are very angry as a result.

Understandable, but it isn’t always very helpful to display this anger at every opportunity. Sometimes it might be better to objectively discuss what is before us, instead at railing against perceived outrages against our moral sensibilities.

I’m not saying that people are wrong to be angry, I just think that sometimes we can channel that anger in more positive directions.

What I see in the OP, is a simple story of one person caring enough to want to help another human being, even if it meant breaking a few rules. Unfortunately, this kind of display of humanity is all too rare in the CoS now. But, it is just this sort of act of kindness that made Scientology seem so special to me at one time.

Not any more, obviously.

I well remember my own situation, just a few years ago. I had received a lot of auditing at St Hill (supposedly the most ‘on-source’ in the UK. Hah!) and yet I was feeling totally distraught and wondering if my life was even worth living. Nothing made any sense, I wasn’t ‘winning’, I was getting more and more ‘caved-in’ by the constant invalidation and crushing regging. I really could have done with someone like Karen then. I would have left the cult anyway (eventually), but I really could have used a friend just then.

Yes, you could say that it might have been better if Karen had not done what she did and let that person leave much earlier than they had.

But I bet if you asked this person, they would say that they were glad that Karen showed them this kindness and cared enough to do something about their troubles. It is just this sort of act that makes us feel that there is also goodness in the world.

It does me anyway.

Infinite mentioned Schindler and interestingly, I had already been reminded of the incredibly moving scene from the film ‘Schindler’s List’ where Schindler is presented with a ring made from the gold fillings donated by the people he saved, inscribed with a quote from the Talmud, "Whoever saves one life saves the world entire."

The Jews that he saved aren’t angry with him for him using them in his factories or for being part of the evil Nazi regime – they recognise him for the good man that he is and thank him for doing what he could to save them.

I think that we too should recognise the good people in Scientology and acknowledge the good that they tried to do, despite the insanity around them.

It doesn’t mean that we support Scientology or any of the other stuff, it just means that we can accept that we were wrong, others were wrong, but there are some good people out there who tried to make things just a little better.

Axiom142

:goodposting::goodposting:

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
It should be clear that Karen's concern were those who were
fucked over, and that she handled such matters.

Despite any possible adverse reactions.

I am very happy with Karen being a good person. I can really "have it".

But it's like good food you know? Even the best food will make you choke if people keep forcing it down your throat, and then you have to spit it out. And this has lead me to start arguing, purely to clear my throat. You start with "It should be clear......" Well no, It is not clear why Karen did anything years ago when she was working in an insane cult. But it is to you isn't it? Mind reader?
It's very undignified to fawn over people in public and try to argue about how good someone is. Do you think Karen is too stupid to let her words and actions speak for themselves?
Praise might be best quietly spoken. If it's shouted too loud it gets disturbing.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Within the context of the situation: A Scientologist on the OT levels who has been told he's blocked from doing further OT levels, Karen's action was a compassionate one.

To a Scientologist, being prohibited from doing his next OT level can feel like a death sentence.

My concern about the opening post had to do with its additional message, which reflected the message of this particular poster in all his earlier posts.

It was not a criticism or "invalidation" of Karen.

That's simple enough isn't it?

I hope so, because this thread is SO DONE. :eyeroll:
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Oh I hate myself for replying. Those of us who hate the tek do kind of gag at this sort of post (op). I was ignoring, but after so many posts, tired little Clammie just unleashes her little fingers.

It's slick PR, but I don't know that Motti even set out to do that. When you are 'in', it's automatic spin. The whole CoM stuff does make me just cringe. It sounds like Karen might very well be a lovely person. Motti, too. The thing is, when you are a Scio, whether corporate or indie, you view the world through those lenses, and what you post will come out that way. It won't necessarily be intended to be a full-on PR piece (although it definitely can be).

I'm someone who has come to believe the tek is bad. I usually don't rail against it, but, my posts will probably come out reflecting that I think its !#@$. Just as those who are pro-tek will have posts that reflect that, even if that is not their agenda. When I'm pissed off or hormonal, I'll tend to go a bit nuts on the subject and my anti-tek will come out in a screeching way...

In my academic writing classes, it's a bitch to keep my personal voice out of those essays that demand it. Once I'm in that mode, I'm actually pretty good at it. On a message board, depending on what I'm reading or watching on TV...no chance. And, being a message board, I often post completely from my own little biased view. Part of the gig. So, I expect others who post to have the same thing. I expect their view to show up...and it's human nature to want to persuade others towards what they believe. It happens.

So, Motti posted from his/her view. Veda went..."uh, wait a minute....". I get why Veda would. Those of us who don't believe it started with CoM just bristle at this sort of thing, even if the OP didn't mean it in that vein. And some probably don't want newbies clicking on stuff here to think we all think it stated with Miscarnage.

I think I'm still amazed at the fact that people get shocked that people 'go nuts' and start posting like crazy or want to dismantle arguments. Yep, there are times when folks get fixated; I will agree. But, also, when you feel like your life has been ripped apart and destroyed by something...and you see others promoting it, you might have the urge to chip in an opinion on it and try to warn others. I might be wrong, but that sort of sounds like personal integrity.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Broken trust.

I was thinking about this thread and how it unfolded earlier today and it seems to me that it is a simple issue of trust ... lack thereof.

When trust is shattered it's not easy to relax with people that are still involved in whatever shattered it, and Indies and Freezoners are still involved in scientology and scientologists are notorious for wanting to be 'at cause' over things they are a part of and therefore they are not easy to be comfortable with or to take at face value as an Ex.

I don't think we trust each other and I doubt we ever will.

It's a shame, but it's hardly surprising, is it?

:no:

People really do change when they dump scientology, they seem to allow themselves to unwind and become their true selves.

One of the first things I learnt (as an Ex) is how little I really know but after the initial shock (lol) it felt great and I am loving the relearning process partly because its my process, and not one of hubbards.
 
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