Karen de la Carriere Jentsch - a pillar of sanity amidst the insanity

Peter Soderqvist

Patron with Honors
I said in another post, I don't care for fanatics on either side. The common denominator of all fanatics is that they see things in black and white only. Either "all good" or "all bad". There isn't such a thing or person which is "all good" or "all bad". Inspection and differentiation is the best cure for fanaticism, both for brainwahsed Scientologists and also for their vehement critics, provided the person wants to let go of his fanaticism and fixed ideas that block his free observation.

As a public I was not aware of these black ops at the time. I was aware of good and bad service, of humane treatment and robotic treatment. Some of the service and tech results were fantastic, some not. I learned to differentiate.

Soderqvist1: you didn’t gain anything!
It is only a delusion, if you don’t believe me, then ask your friends, neighbors, and colleagues people who know you if they are inspired, or impressed by your gains? I condemn your middle-way path regarding Scientology just as I condemn Nazism or Ritual Cannibalism. But I take a middle-path way when it comes to abortions, as evidenced in our abortion laws here in Sweden which works just fine. And even if something is good in Scientology, it is built upon “bloods Money”, it is unethical to have anything to do with it, in the same way we don’t accept Doctor Joseph Mengele’s scientific findings from his experiments upon Jews in Auschwitz, and Hubbard has his victims too!
http://www.scnforum.org/index.php?t=msg&goto=11027&S=412540624b1e6b0f9a8d05307feeedfd#msg_11027
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
<snip> You often claim that I and others use PR.
Well, you do! - So?

That scientologists are not able to discern anything.
They aren't.. So?

You here blatently use black PR.
You here use wroing grammur and makes spewling erors!

You describe the creed as "sordid insincerity", " Phony".
Hey Terril! - Wake up! - It bloody well IS sordid insincerity!!

As PR cover for its "religion angle".
Yes.. That would be it's purpose. Something to show the 'uninitiated' and appear like good people.

Here's a link for Scientology's bloody Creed..
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/scientology/users/codes_and_creeds/
For the reader's own perusal. Look each point over critically and see if it ain't sordid insincerity...

That its a bad thing leading others "up the Scientology Bridge."
Yep.. That's a crime in my wiew too.. Comes naturally from the realization that Hubbard's shit doesn't work and that he wrote it to defraud. AND having tried it out, been fucked up in the head and defrauded!

So you don't subscribe to human rights?
Woh!!! - Terril, did you actually ask that of Veda?

I'm actually disappointed in you...

Allright, can't accuse you of using 'slick PR', but I CAN accuse you of applying fucking Scientology PR! - Ron's Journal 68 specifically? (Nah, I couldn't recall that. I needed Veda's post to remind me.)

The Creed expresses many points re humann rights.
Yeah.. It would.. No shit Sherlock! - The idea is to fool some folks.. Maybe they're not as easily fooled as you Terril!

:duh:
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
A while back on another thread I wrote something to the effect that part of what Institutionalized Scn is all about is Judgment and Judging…judging others and being judged by others. Scn also thrives on getting folks to “buy into” format and accept a system whereby they constantly self judge on a rigged Philosophical “Shoots and Ladders” board that inevitably ends up with them thinking themselves into the same corner; “We” is Right and You is Wrong.

The forgoing is one of the reasons I walked away over 20 years ago. It is also one of the reasons that I have endeavored to live my post Scn years without Judgment in my Heart. I’m not always successful in this endeavor and, at times, fail miserably at it and I sure enough have written posts on ESMB that are filled with blunt, terse and scathing Judgments…especially of El Ron, Da Monster, Marty and a few others that I personally new “back in the days”. Likewise, I have written posts on ESMB with fond, friendly and sometimes flowery Judgments about many of my fellow Flag, SO, Staff and Public Scn members that I knew.

There’s quite a number of folks that I still remember with abiding affection from my 20+ years in Scn and were the primary reason I was interested in Scn in the first place, joined staff and later the SO, stayed as long as I did and, in the end, were fundamentally instrumental in my decision to walk away. In all honesty, the biggest and most lasting “gains” I had in Scn came from interaction with some of the finest folks I’ve ever known. I’ve seen enough and been through enough to know that those folks weren’t how they were because of the “Tech”--they were born that way and conscientiously worked damn hard to be a decent, giving and loving person.

I’m thankful that Motti (whom I don’t know and had never read any post from) put up this OP and I’m even more thankful that each and every comment on this thread has been posted.

Why?

I was once very adept at recovering Scns that were “Off-Lines”, “ARCXen” or “Old Timers”. In this one thread I now have hope that some of those folks don’t hate me for it but have also had to dwell on the fact that I, in my desire and drive to be kind to and help another, inadvertently most certainly harmed others.

Thank you one and all.:yes:

Face:)
 

Terril park

Sponsor
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/critical

Yeah.. It would.. No shit Sherlock! - The idea is to fool some folks.. Maybe they're not as easily fooled as you Terril!

:duh:

Was the creed written in 1954 dishonest? Sordid insincerity?

Dunno. However given the history of CO$ later it is valid to think
so.

I like this creed.

I take it at face value. I consider any PLs that violate it as
crap.

http://www.freezoneearth.org/HolyCows/index.htm
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
A while back on another thread I wrote something to the effect that part of what Institutionalized Scn is all about is Judgment and Judging…judging others and being judged by others. Scn also thrives on getting folks to “buy into” format and accept a system whereby they constantly self judge on a rigged Philosophical “Shoots and Ladders” board that inevitably ends up with them thinking themselves into the same corner; “We” is Right and You is Wrong.

The forgoing is one of the reasons I walked away over 20 years ago. It is also one of the reasons that I have endeavored to live my post Scn years without Judgment in my Heart. I’m not always successful in this endeavor and, at times, fail miserably at it and I sure enough have written posts on ESMB that are filled with blunt, terse and scathing Judgments…especially of El Ron, Da Monster, Marty and a few others that I personally new “back in the days”. Likewise, I have written posts on ESMB with fond, friendly and sometimes flowery Judgments about many of my fellow Flag, SO, Staff and Public Scn members that I knew.

There’s quite a number of folks that I still remember with abiding affection from my 20+ years in Scn and were the primary reason I was interested in Scn in the first place, joined staff and later the SO, stayed as long as I did and, in the end, were fundamentally instrumental in my decision to walk away. In all honesty, the biggest and most lasting “gains” I had in Scn came from interaction with some of the finest folks I’ve ever known. I’ve seen enough and been through enough to know that those folks weren’t how they were because of the “Tech”--they were born that way and conscientiously worked damn hard to be a decent, giving and loving person.

I’m thankful that Motti (whom I don’t know and had never read any post from) put up this OP and I’m even more thankful that each and every comment on this thread has been posted.

Why?

I was once very adept at recovering Scns that were “Off-Lines”, “ARCXen” or “Old Timers”. In this one thread I now have hope that some of those folks don’t hate me for it but have also had to dwell on the fact that I, in my desire and drive to be kind to and help another, inadvertently most certainly harmed others.

Thank you one and all.:yes:

Face:)


This is an excellent observation. I find the root-cause of any case to be judgment. Just look non-judgmentally, and life becomes simple and a pleasure to live.

KHTK 1: INTRODUCTION TO LOOKING

.
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
I said in another post, I don't care for fanatics on either side. The common denominator of all fanatics is that they see things in black and white only. Either "all good" or "all bad". There isn't such a thing or person which is "all good" or "all bad". Inspection and differentiation is the best cure for fanaticism, both for brainwahsed Scientologists and also for their vehement critics, provided the person wants to let go of his fanaticism and fixed ideas that block his free observation.

As a public I was not aware of these black ops at the time. I was aware of good and bad service, of humane treatment and robotic treatment. Some of the service and tech results were fantastic, some not. I learned to differentiate.

That is a wonderful attitude. It is in harmony with the attitudes I have learned from Buddhism.

Attitudes inspired by Buddhism

.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
A while back on another thread I wrote something to the effect that part of what Institutionalized Scn is all about is Judgment and Judging…judging others and being judged by others. Scn also thrives on getting folks to “buy into” format and accept a system whereby they constantly self judge on a rigged Philosophical “Shoots and Ladders” board that inevitably ends up with them thinking themselves into the same corner; “We” is Right and You is Wrong.

The forgoing is one of the reasons I walked away over 20 years ago. It is also one of the reasons that I have endeavored to live my post Scn years without Judgment in my Heart. I’m not always successful in this endeavor and, at times, fail miserably at it and I sure enough have written posts on ESMB that are filled with blunt, terse and scathing Judgments…especially of El Ron, Da Monster, Marty and a few others that I personally new “back in the days”. Likewise, I have written posts on ESMB with fond, friendly and sometimes flowery Judgments about many of my fellow Flag, SO, Staff and Public Scn members that I knew.

There’s quite a number of folks that I still remember with abiding affection from my 20+ years in Scn and were the primary reason I was interested in Scn in the first place, joined staff and later the SO, stayed as long as I did and, in the end, were fundamentally instrumental in my decision to walk away. In all honesty, the biggest and most lasting “gains” I had in Scn came from interaction with some of the finest folks I’ve ever known. I’ve seen enough and been through enough to know that those folks weren’t how they were because of the “Tech”--they were born that way and conscientiously worked damn hard to be a decent, giving and loving person.

I’m thankful that Motti (whom I don’t know and had never read any post from) put up this OP and I’m even more thankful that each and every comment on this thread has been posted.

Why?

I was once very adept at recovering Scns that were “Off-Lines”, “ARCXen” or “Old Timers”. In this one thread I now have hope that some of those folks don’t hate me for it but have also had to dwell on the fact that I, in my desire and drive to be kind to and help another, inadvertently most certainly harmed others.

Thank you one and all.:yes:

Face:)

:bighug:

awww.... I look back and most of the Scios I knew were there with the very best intentions. You are here, and you are posting, and you are working on dumping the mindfuck. Most of us who were in probably harmed others. It's a hard fucking pill to swallow. There are times when I still have a nightmare that pulls me back into that world, but it does continue to get better. Give yourself a hug and the gift of forgiveness. We really did help each other, despite the tech...and now out, we can help each other again.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
:bighug:

awww.... I look back and most of the Scios I knew were there with the very best intentions. You are here, and you are posting, and you are working on dumping the mindfuck. Most of us who were in probably harmed others. It's a hard fucking pill to swallow. There are times when I still have a nightmare that pulls me back into that world, but it does continue to get better. Give yourself a hug and the gift of forgiveness. We really did help each other, despite the tech...and now out, we can help each other again.

Thanks a whole bunch, Clammy…I ‘preciate that.:yes:

I, personally, ascribe to the notion that the day I have absolutely no “fear” of or the slightest twinge of remorse in hurting another…even “in a Just Cause”…is the day that I have, yet again another time, lost my way in this "Sea of Life" and am off my “Path”.:melodramatic:

Being here on ESMB with folks like you is part of my way back “Home”.:coolwink:

Face :)
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Thanks a whole bunch, Clammy…I ‘preciate that.:yes:

I, personally, ascribe to the notion that the day I have absolutely no “fear” of or the slightest twinge of remorse in hurting another…even “in a Just Cause”…is the day that I have, yet again another time, lost my way in this "Sea of Life" and am off my “Path”.:melodramatic:

Being here on ESMB with folks like you is part of my way back “Home”.:coolwink:

Face :)

Certainly we all did things that now, we would not do. I wouldn't have recruited people to the Church had I known what the Church was, nor would I have assigned friends who were not in the Church conditions as part of my HCO hat for my personal org board (man, that shit STILL comes back to bite me: I have a friend who continues to maintain a FRAMED copy of my treason condition assignment for him, and brandishes it when he wants to blackmail me for drinks).
 

Moosejewels

Patron Meritorious
The whole notion of "out-tech" implies that there is some sane, useful and valid "in-tech". There is NO SUCH THING - not outside the imaginations of deceived Scientologists. When Scientology exactly follows Hubbard's directions and policies, and thus the "policy or tech is IN", it is functioning as the scam it was designed to be by Hubbard.

Karen may have been a "decent" person at the time, in this situation, and that is fine and well. But, from a larger and different perspective she acted to "forward the goals" and "contribute to the motions" of the SCAM known as Scientology. How many years did she do THAT for? :confused2:

It was a scam in 1960. It was a scam in 1970. It was a scam in 1980. It was a scam in 1990, and it is a scam today.

Scientology, at ANY TIME, is INSANE. A decent person might try to input some decency, kindness and sanity into THAT equation, at any time, but that doesn't change the fact that there isn't ANY VERSION of organized Scientology that is anything but batshit crazy.

I think that might have been Veda's point.

Decent people routinely get pulled in by the promises of scams. Karen seems to be one of these types of people. But, that doesn't change the design or nature of the Scientology scam, or that she contributed to Hubbard's scam for a long time.

The "abuse" is inherent to ANY version of Scientology. What is this "C of M"? Church of "Miscavige"? THAT also implies that Miscavige is somehow failing to apply Hubbard's many (oppressive) directives. But, actually, in fact, Miscavige is doing an EXCELLENT job applying Hubbard's "standard policy" on "running the Scientology organization". Hubbard created the pattern and Miscavige follows it well. The ABUSE was ALWAYS part of Scientology, and if Hubbard hadn't died when he did, I have no doubt that the severity of Scientology would have occurred as a "natural pattern of growth and development".

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Certainly we all did things that now, we would not do. I wouldn't have recruited people to the Church had I known what the Church was, nor would I have assigned friends who were not in the Church conditions as part of my HCO hat for my personal org board (man, that shit STILL comes back to bite me: I have a friend who continues to maintain a FRAMED copy of my treason condition assignment for him, and brandishes it when he wants to blackmail me for drinks).

Sounds like a good friend. :)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
It seems to me that it goes from one extreme judgmental, to the other extreme to not judge at all, why not adopt the middle path; Judge and prepare to be Judged?
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/moral_judgment.html

Thank you for the link. To me, there are truths in Objectivism and I have read all of Ayn Rand’s works and have learned and have been influenced by them. Rand wrote from her Heart.

Let me explain my “Take” on “Judgment” a little further.

To me, part of Living is a continuous series of choices. Each choice once made leads to yet another choice to be made. “Not Choosing” is in and of itself a “Choice”.

“Judgment” is part of the act of choosing and is the province of the “Head”.

My “Judgment” tells me that “I” am the arbiter of what is “Right” and what is “Wrong”.

“Instinct” is also part of the act of choosing and is the province of the “Heart”.

My “Instinct” tells me that what is “Right” and what is “Wrong”, ultimately, has nothing to do with “Judgment”.

My getting in to Scn, then Staff and later the SO was an act of choosing…relying on my “Judgment”.

My walking away from the SO, then the CofS and later Scn was an act of choosing… going with my “Instinct”.

I have suffered many adverse consequences of my “Judgment”…by others, of others and of myself.

I have struggled for years, and continue to struggle to this day, through daily challenges encountered from following my “Instinct”.

My “Instinct” is to go forward, always forward, choosing to make choices with tempered “Judgment” and--as best I can--without “Judgment” in my “Heart”.

My Living is not of great significance, noteworthy or a hallowed accomplishment in the Grand Story of “Life”…it is simply “a life”.

What is beatified about “my life” is the Grace, Light and Mystery of this Sea of Life and the magically serendipitous--yet somehow familiar--“Music” of my fellow creatures and the “Symphony” of all Living things.

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Certainly we all did things that now, we would not do. I wouldn't have recruited people to the Church had I known what the Church was, nor would I have assigned friends who were not in the Church conditions as part of my HCO hat for my personal org board (man, that shit STILL comes back to bite me: I have a friend who continues to maintain a FRAMED copy of my treason condition assignment for him, and brandishes it when he wants to blackmail me for drinks).

Thanks, Uni.:yes:

I sent my parents a "Can We Ever Be Friends" tape. Only made things worse. They were born again, evangelical, charismatic, holy roller, fundamentalist Christians. They were convinced that El Ron was the Anti-Christ and that Scn was the Anti-Christ religion.:coolwink:

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I posted the above two responses yesterday and for some reason the "New Posts", "Today's Posts" etc don't show that I made them. :confused2:
 
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