Karen de la Carriere Jentsch - a pillar of sanity amidst the insanity

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Re: Motti ~~ who started the thread

"Motti" is a significant player in his country and a person who has "arrived" and made it.

Allright, he's a 'significant player' and he has arrived.. Arrived where? - Karen, are you assuming the there's a general agreement about when 'we have arrived and made it'? - To me that would mean that Motti, and you, understand that Hubbard was a malevolent charlatan and ALL his so called 'tech' is fraudulent and designed to milk you dry of your money while conditioning you to be thankful for it...

Is that where Motti has 'arrived'? - I don't get that impression really..

He is a Government advisor, a strategic consultant and a major media player.

Hmm.. Being a spy for Scientology in a government? - As an advisor and strategic consultant? - Sounds quite ominous to me actually...

I don't have to tell you that Scientology, as a group, has decided to be an enemy of WOG-society.. That includes any government.. If an employee from, say, a government intel department, were to be 'discovered' in scientology he will be declared a traitor immediatly. There's no doubt at all that he'd be seen as an enemy. A government spy..

This works the other way too.. A scientologist found in the government.. Allright, 'governments' tend to be unaware that Scientology really IS an enemy.. But as former scientologists we do know that.. I know that. You know that, and Motti know that!

The story of his exit and what the "Church" did is very recent and shocking and very revealing. I doubt he will even reveal it on ESMB now.

I didn't expect Motti to tell his story anyway.. I had the impression that he had another 'agenda'..

Attacking him will not get him to use his strengths against the very purpose we all share.

Having Miscavige ousted? - Ok, we do 'share' that purpose.. But booting the terror midget out is hardly solving the problem. The remaining 'Scientology' will still create a totalitarian society that mocks Orwells 1984... Unless the remaining scientologist starts using the insides of their heads.. (As opposed to Hubbards..)

This is where in-fighting make us less effective and blow off important whistle-blowers.

I agree with you on this..

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Re: Motti ~~ who started the thread

Wow, I didn't realise this was exclusive behaviour of scientologists I thought everyone did this.

Well not to the extent of the fawning and mutual grooming that Scientologists do!

 

[degraded being]

Excellent post.

My only quibble is that I suspect there was more to hubbard than his simply being a 'brilliant con artist'. He certainly did engage in intentional fraud, both repeatedly & on a massive scale. Nor am I convinced he was necessarily all that 'brilliant' either. Although he clearly possessed genuine talent and ability. As I've stated elsewhere, he was a tremendously complicated individual and one who showed signs of long term mental illness, along with native charisma, charm, and several other talents.

I believe there was a good deal more to the complexity of hubbard's behavior than just a talent and propensity for fraud, although those who feel defrauded by him often focus on that aspect of his behavior to the exclusion of his other qualities. That may be 'understandable' in the human context, but it doesn't reflect a regard for accuracy in understanding hubbard & his church.


Mark A. Baker

Oh yeah, let's just remove the bothersome "human context" from it shall we.

 

[RogerB]

Re: Motti ~~ who started the thread

Snipped . . .

Originally Posted by Karen#1
He is a Government advisor, a strategic consultant and a major media player.

Hmm.. Being a spy for Scientology in a government? - As an advisor and strategic consultant? - Sounds quite ominous to me actually...

I don't have to tell you that Scientology, as a group, has decided to be an enemy of WOG-society.. That includes any government.. If an employee from, say, a government intel department, were to be 'discovered' in scientology he will be declared a traitor immediatly. There's no doubt at all that he'd be seen as an enemy. A government spy..

This works the other way too.. A scientologist found in the government.. Allright, 'governments' tend to be unaware that Scientology really IS an enemy.. But as former scientologists we do know that.. I know that. You know that, and Motti know that!

Snipped . . . .

Hmmm, Schwimmie, did you miss that this guy is OUT now? or are we just running the above theme for the sake of argument?

As an ex, I'd say that being in the position he is stated to be in, it'd be a smart move to shut up about ever having been connected to the cult

As we saw on another thread, sticking your head up as having had anything to do with "them" is a quick way to get yourself and your credibility incinerated.

So I expect he's not likely to give us his history and any info of "where he has arrived at" as you request.

He would be wise to get on with life and win at it without any reference to the cult.

RogerB

Rog

 

[Krautfag]

I just want to add that from the few conversations we had, I find Karen to be a very friendly and decent human being too.

Now, you lot continue to bash your heads together.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Re: Motti ~~ who started the thread

Hmmm, Schwimmie, did you miss that this guy is OUT now? <snip>

No.. I'm, aware of he's being supposedly out. I 'assume' that he's still a 'Hubbardite', but out of the official cult..

That's good! - Better than being inside the mind bender circus anyway.. One has the chance of unbending ones mind then..

Hmm.. My response was to Karen, and a somewhat jumbled impression of the intire thread.. But also to the OP..

Oh.. It's all well that Karen was nice as a CS in Scientology.. I expexted that, since that is the impression that I have of Karen.. But as has been mentioned already, that had nothing to do with 'policy'.. Also.. I've really known lots of 'nice' scientologists.. Especially when they wanted to help me get 'on and up the Bridge', and expected a 10% comission and brownie points.

Actually I got the same reaction to the OP that Veda posted.. Only, I was gonna ignore it and not post about it.

 

[paradox]

....

I believe there was a good deal more to the complexity of hubbard's behavior than just a talent and propensity for fraud, although those who feel defrauded by him often focus on that aspect of his behavior to the exclusion of his other qualities. That may be 'understandable' in the human context, but it doesn't reflect a regard for accuracy in understanding hubbard & his church.


Mark A. Baker

Oh yeah, let's just remove the bothersome "human context" from it shall we.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Sic' 'im!

 

[Veda]

Re: Motti ~~ who started the thread

-snip-

Actually I got the same reaction to the OP that Veda posted.. Only, I was gonna ignore it and not post about it.

What OP was that? Please clarify. Hey, you brought it up.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

This OP (This thread):

In the early 80's, Karen de la Carriere <snip>

And this response:

Sorry, I don't buy it. You're using Karen, and peoples' respect and compassion for her, as a means to promote your own naive notion of what Scientology was, and is.

Yeh.. I could have expressed that more clearly..

 

[Veda]

This OP (This thread):

And this response:


Yeh.. I could have expressed that more clearly..

Oh that's alright. The reference to out-tech zombies might have restimulated the Zombie Implant Series from 98,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years ago. A cold shower uses keys it out.

 

[Smilla]

Re: Motti ~~ who started the thread

Snip:

The purpose we all share?

" Love thy neighbour as thyself."

Or as put by Rabbi Hillel:

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah - the rest is commentary; go and learn."

 

[Veda]

The only thing worse than a politician wrapping himself in the flag is a Scientologist wrapping himself in Jesus. I guess referring to precepts in 'The Way to Happiness' won't go over on ESMB, since most people know it was written as PR cover while Hubbard hid from the Feds after his "trick, sue, lie to, destroy" applied philosophy backfired on him. There is a tendency for PR gimmicks that are regarded as "working" for CofS Scientology - such as calling Incident 2 of OT 3 a metaphor - to be borrowed by outside the CofS Scientology, so let's hope that CofS PR doesn't start quoting Jesus in interviews.

 

[Terril park]

Re: Motti ~~ who started the thread

Or as put by Rabbi Hillel:

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah - the rest is commentary; go and learn."

Way cool!

 

[Terril park]

The only thing worse than a politician wrapping himself in the flag is a Scientologist wrapping himself in Jesus.

Niether as distasteful as a rabid critic wrapping self in a coat of moral rectitude as a successfull auditor who yet denigrates all scientologists and anything good any scientologist does. Or even
ANYTHING which a scientologist does as evidenced by this post.
Even quoting jesus is positioned as something bad.

I guess referring to precepts in 'The Way to Happiness' won't go over on ESMB, since most people know it was written as PR cover while Hubbard hid from the Feds after his "trick, sue, lie to, destroy" applied philosophy backfired on him.

Most references to TWTH here have been how the auditing tended to persuade people to leave staff and CO$.

There is a tendency for PR gimmicks that are regarded as "working" for CofS Scientology - such as calling Incident 2 of OT 3 a metaphor - to be borrowed by outside the CofS Scientology, so let's hope that CofS PR doesn't start quoting Jesus in interviews.

In a very recent talk with someone who may know as many in the FZ as I, he said ALL those he discussed this with didn't accept the
OT 3 story as factual. Thus all the people he surveyed, and all those I did, the great majority find it non factual. But nevertheless beneficial.

Why would you call this a " PR Gimmick"? Might I suggest your GO training has led you to continually position those you disagree with in a negative manner?

And what have you got against the sayings of Jesus?

This post is just Veda black PR.

 

[Smilla]

The only thing worse than a politician wrapping himself in the flag is a Scientologist wrapping himself in Jesus

That depends who the Scientologist is, and whether they are sincere or not. In this case, I believe Terril to be completely sincere.

I guess referring to precepts in 'The Way to Happiness' won't go over on ESMB, since most people know it was written as PR cover while Hubbard hid from the Feds after his "trick, sue, lie to, destroy" applied philosophy backfired on him. There is a tendency for PR gimmicks that are regarded as "working" for CofS Scientology - such as calling Incident 2 of OT 3 a metaphor - to be borrowed by outside the CofS Scientology, so let's hope that CofS PR doesn't start quoting Jesus in interviews.

Generalisations undermine the argument.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

rabid critic

-snip-

black PR.

What happened to "turn the other cheek"?


"And what have you got against the sayings of Jesus?" (Said in response to someone noting that Jesus is being used, insincerely, for PR purposes.)

That's even better than, "You against Human Rights?" (Said in response to someone noting that the 'Creed of the Church' was created as companion PR cover for the religion angle.)

 

[Smilla]

What happened to "turn the other cheek"?

"And what have you got against the sayings of Jesus?"

What happened to Chesed?

 

[paradox]

1) Intentional or not, the OP is essentially an advertisement for Karen's auditing/cs'ing services, including a "testimonial" (aka "success story," "win") from an unknown source, posted by someone other than the actual originator of the testimonial.

2) There was a slug-fest not so very long ago about the posting of [FZ] success stories by anyone other than the original author or source of the story. Upshot was that the FZ Success Story sub-forum was closed.

3) The general consensus taken away from #2 above was that the practice of posting [FZ] success stories by anyone other than the originator of the story was banned. However, there doesn't appear to be anything in the ESMB RoC (Rules of Conduct), FAQs, etc regarding it.

4) The originator of the OP, being new to ESMB, is likely unaware of 2 & 3 above. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I should think cutting some slack would not be out of line.

IMO, the thread should have been reported to a Mod from the git-go and either deleted as an inappropriate advertisement, or the testimonial edited out and the thread moved to the proper forum (e.g. $cn Tehcnology or whatever it's called).

2¢ worth (or less).

 

[Smilla]

Deleted - changed my mind.

 

[Emma]

Actually, I think the OP was a nice story about someone standing up to the abusive system in Scientology and a "30 years on" reconnection.

I'm not sure why we get so much hysteria when someone says ANYTHING positive about ANY aspect of a Scientologist or former Scientologist.

I swear, sometimes we appear less tolerant than the group we oppose.