Karen de la Carriere Jentsch - a pillar of sanity amidst the insanity

TG1

Angelic Poster
Motti,

Without going off on a tear, I do agree that all behaviors Scientological are much more complicated than membership in Groups 1 or 2 or 3, as defined by individuals' personalities.

Human behavior is NEVER based on a single driver, e.g., personality or even other internal drivers like attitudes and beliefs. In fact, everything I know about human behavior places a greater weight on external (situational) causes of a person’s behavior, e.g., incentives, constraints, role requirements, social pressures. Just think about all the things people have done while inside the Church of Scientology that they now have great trouble squaring with their own values / beliefs / personality.

I encourage you to hang around and read all you can here and elsewhere. You may wish to take it on as a challenge to understand better and then to appreciate the many different perspectives about Scientology that people here (and those who aren't here) have about the subject, practice, group and personalities of Scientology and the Church.

And I really do mean this: Welcome to ESMB.

TG1
 

Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks, Emma.
This got me thinking

People who leave Scientology fall into 3 main categories:

[/SIZE]

Motti, i appreciate you telling us, i know Karen helped despite the potential consequences

3 main categories
Those who speak their mind
Those who dont speak their mind
Those who continue to seek agreement to change others minds.
 
I read the OP just as an expression of appreciation.

I see the other posts questioning it a being unsurprising considering the background/s of all the people here. Unsurprising, and worthwhile in some ways.
I don't see anything wrong with taking a simple expression of appreciation and reading more deeply into it, if as in this case, Karen did enable someone to continue in a cult by expediting their progress in the cult. It is not a big deal to me,
but just thinking about it, or discussing it may be of some use to others.

There are other issues such as whether or not Motti is promoting Karen as a FZer, which if not true could piss Motti or Karen off, but we have seen enough of that kind of thing to make it natural that some may wonder, or even assume that it is FZ auditor promotion (especially when Terril - or someone - announces that Karen is now set up to do auditing).

Then there's the altitude building issue. Some may not even think it exists, but i am 'sensitive" to people promoting themselves or other's as having altitude (such as Karen's post about that person (who's name I can't be bothered remembering)
who is a "significant player" and who has "arrived" and "made it".
That kind of elitism/snobbery always gives me the shits, so when Karen tries to put someone else up there I can't help but think she sees herself as being up there too.
That is not likely to make the original post on this thread any more appealing to me, nevertheless, I still think the op was just an expression of appreciation.

There have been some quite big blow-ups in the past when people come on and make announcements about how good/wonderful some known ex person is.
When people try to tell others that so and so is wonderful it sometimes seems to be saying that the person deserves ONLY praise and not just listening to, or questioning of ideas or motives, and anyone who does question them will be considered a jerk. A great shutdown method, and a mini cult of personality thing.
Praising people doesn't always produce those reactions though. I don't know why it is irksome sometimes and not at others, but it does seem that some lovely person who you really liked back in X Org may have just been joe blow to others and possibly a real shit to some.

I used to think that some quite innocent looking posts (FZ and others) were just goodheartedness, and watched people poking at them and even poked at them myself, but still thinking that it was just a person expressing fairly postive thoughts. But sometimes it was amazing what came out of the nest with the poking. Quite an education in how the devil is sometimes in the details, as regard people's overall agenda and how it is expressed in lots of little things they say.

I have no sense of who Motti is, her/his ideas on anything really. So my opinion of the OP as an expression of appreciation is limited by that. If I knew Motti more I would have a stronger opinion one way or another. The thread is interesting because of the way people questioned a seemingly simple post and some bits and pieces. That bible blather was a pile of crap IMO.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I'm wondering if Karen has reported any crimes. I still find it hard to believe that here stay at the top didn't involve watching and knowing about many crimes.

She might be a nice person, I've never met her, but like Marty or any of the other higher execs, until she reports in to the law, all other talk about her is "bypassing charge".
 

Markus

Silver Meritorious Patron
In the early 80's, Karen de la Carriere - Jentsch was an LRH-trained class XII c/s working at Flag's Class XII HGC. she tried her utmost to instill some sanity into the out-tech rampant around her (see her post at http://www.scientology-cult.com/karen-de-la-carriere-jentzschs-resignation-from-the-church.html). Here's a personal story of a friend of mine who was saved by her great kindness and adherence to standard tech:

C.N.
[FONT=times new roman,serif]told me that Karen saved his life some 30 years ago. He was a public on his OT levels then. The Flag zombies harassed him, wrong indications, labeled him "security risk" and appended a security guard to him 24/7 for absolutely nothing. He was close to despair when Karen called him personally one evening and told him: "You don't know me. And it's not usual that the C/S will personally call the PC, but I feel the need to communicate with you directly and tell you that I've cleared you of all false charges and invalidations inflicted on you. You're cleared to go to your next OT level".
Thanks to Karen's sane handling and superb service, he remained in Scientology for a few more years, but the CoM got worse and worse until he decided he had enough of the abuse and left. Just like Karen did eventually.
The two never had any connection for some 30 years. Now, thanks to the internet, the connection was re-established.
[/FONT]

Dear Motti,

I'm in direct contact with Karen and had some very interesting conversations with her. In my opinion it was and is her Christian upbringing and her generous character which is making the difference which is making her "a pillar of sanity amidst the insanity" it has nothing at all to do with a "better interpretation" of Mr. Hubbards so called Technology.

Dear Karen,
I'm sure you will read this here....
I so dearly hope that one day you will manage to recognize this too Karen - just like my mother did after 15 years involvement in the CoS. But in my opinion my mum never was a real Scientologist - her strong Christian believe and her good character full of love saved her from being brainwashed completely. Could it be that it is the same with you Karen?

Love
Markus
 
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TG1

Angelic Poster
I'm wondering if Karen has reported any crimes. I still find it hard to believe that here stay at the top didn't involve watching and knowing about many crimes.

She might be a nice person, I've never met her, but like Marty or any of the other higher execs, until she reports in to the law, all other talk about her is "bypassing charge".


Gee, UM, I guess you missed the recent ESMB thread where Karen told how she reported to law enforcement the rape of her now-grown son when he was 12 years old, which she learned about only relatively recently?

Start reading at http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...xposes-more-cult-crimes!&highlight=karen+rape

She has also said here and on Marty's and Jeff's blogs and at OCMB that she has reported to local, state and federal police numerous crimes of harassment, extortion, enslavement, and other human rights abuses to local, state and federal police. The victims include herself, her ex-husband Heber Jentzsch, and several other Scientologists and ex-Scientologists.

She's made herself a pretty big harassment target by the cult of Scientology, and I've heard that harassment is ongoing and unpleasant.

Is that acceptable?

TG1
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Gee, UM, I guess you missed the recent ESMB thread where Karen told how she reported to law enforcement the rape of her now-grown son when he was 12 years old, which she learned about only relatively recently?

Start reading at http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...xposes-more-cult-crimes!&highlight=karen+rape

She has also said here and on Marty's and Jeff's blogs and at OCMB that she has reported to local, state and federal police numerous crimes of harassment, extortion, enslavement, and other human rights abuses to local, state and federal police. The victims include herself, her ex-husband Heber Jentzsch, and several other Scientologists and ex-Scientologists.

She's made herself a pretty big harassment target by the cult of Scientology, and I've heard that harassment is ongoing and unpleasant.

Is that acceptable?

TG1

Yep, that's acceptable. I generally don't participate in threads that are not discussions of philosophy, logic or some other special interest of mine, so I tend not to see posts by people involved in the messes.

Glad she's getting off the mark.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Actually, I think the OP was a nice story about someone standing up to the abusive system in Scientology and a "30 years on" reconnection.

I'm not sure why we get so much hysteria when someone says ANYTHING positive about ANY aspect of a Scientologist or former Scientologist.

I swear, sometimes we appear less tolerant than the group we oppose. :grouch:

I think the reason the OP got such a response is that it is not actually written that way. Some read it exactly as you say, knowing Karen to be a lovely lady. However the actual words read:

<snip>Here's a personal story of a friend of mine who was saved by her great kindness and adherence to standard tech:
<snip>
Thanks to Karen's sane handling and superb service, he remained in Scientology for a few more years, but the CoM got worse and worse until he decided he had enough of the abuse and left. Just like Karen did eventually.

For me I see that Karen's kindness is DESPITE "standard tech", and I don't think that the OP meant it that way at all. Maybe he did, I don't know, it just doesn't come across as that. There's also the reference to how it is Miscavige who is to blame for everything -the combination of those two issues are enough to bring a lot of discussion! And Terril's advertisment for her services was not a smart thing to add as it raised other issues as well.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Karen had courage to violate the rules and save someone from hubbard stand-in duplicating sociopath . . .

Not really. Karen's actions were KSW insomuch as the end result was that the person who's life she apparently "saved" stayed for longer within the cult than they might otherwise have done. Karen's reaching out to the person may have gone against some of the policy but not the overarching intent. Schindler, she ain't.

Assuming the OP wasn't an example of a successful "handling", Karen's actions do speak of a kind soul willing to bring some comfort, albeit from within the cult mindset. There are many such stories: cooks giving RPFers some extra food, white lies to cover someone's mistake, a word of encouragement when all seems lost, for example. I sometimes wonder if being in the heart of the cult isn't a bit like being in a PoW camp. Camaraderie becomes essential to survival and, perhaps most telling, its those occasions when L Ron Hubbard's scripture is ignored that bring the greatest relief.
 
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Veda

Sponsor
I think the reason the OP got such a response is that it is not actually written that way. Some read it exactly as you say, knowing Karen to be a lovely lady. However the actual words read:

[See quote on prior page]

For me I see that Karen's kindness is DESPITE "standard tech", and I don't think that the OP meant it that way at all. Maybe he did, I don't know, it just doesn't come across as that. There's also the reference to how it is Miscavige who is to blame for everything -the combination of those two issues are enough to bring a lot of discussion! And Terril's advertisment for her services was not a smart thing to add as it raised other issues as well.

In the early 80's, Karen de la Carriere - Jentsch was an LRH-trained class XII c/s working at Flag's Class XII HGC. she tried her utmost to instill some sanity into the out-tech rampant around her (see her post at http://www.scientology-cult.com/karen-de-la-carriere-jentzschs-resignation-from-the-church.html). Here's a personal story of a friend of mine who was saved by her great kindness and adherence to standard tech:

C.N.
[FONT=times new roman,serif]told me that Karen saved his life some 30 years ago. He was a public on his OT levels then. The Flag zombies harassed him, wrong indications, labeled him "security risk" and appended a security guard to him 24/7 for absolutely nothing. He was close to despair when Karen called him personally one evening and told him: "You don't know me. And it's not usual that the C/S will personally call the PC, but I feel the need to communicate with you directly and tell you that I've cleared you of all false charges and invalidations inflicted on you. You're cleared to go to your next OT level".

Thanks to Karen's sane handling and superb service, he remained in Scientology for a few more years, but the CoM got worse and worse until he decided he had enough of the abuse and left. Just like Karen did eventually.

The two never had any connection for some 30 years. Now, thanks to the internet, the connection was re-established.
[/FONT]

If one reads this post with Motti's other posts throughout ESMB, it becomes pretty obvious what Motti is doing.

Now, Motti, are you gonna blow that big red whistle of yours and save us all from the Church of Miscavology, or ain't ya?
 
:lol: I think the original "Success Story" was written for a different audience than the one here on ESMB, don't you?

I liked it. It works for me. :thumbsup:

Nor, evidently, am I alone in that. :biggrin:

At least the original post was civil in tone. We could use more of those. :yes:

And, afterall, you can't please everyone. :whistling:


Mark A. Baker
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Black and white thinking anyone?

Because Exes know how scientologists really think via ARC triangles and tone scales and all the other green on white or red on white tek (which actually means black and white thinking in the extreme) and how they are usually trying to sell or promote something or 'handle' a real or imagined situation it's usually a bit obvious when a handling is occurring.

Exes are also aware of how scientologists view, over-analyse and label non scientologists, they do it automatically as we once did, and I doubt we are being viewed or labelled favourably.

:no:

Perhaps (shock horror) the Indies are trying to use us for their own enterprising aims.

:yes:

I would like to see the cofs annihilated and sincerely hope there will be nothing left for the Indies to pick up and carry on doing business with.

So count me out for the upcoming 'we've ousted DM' victory dance wontcha, because that is only one step in the right direction, I'll dance all night for a month when the cofs is in tatters though.


:party:

Sorry about that Indies, think of it as a favour though and it certainly isn't personal, it's just that enough is enough and the cult has done too much damage and needs to die now. I sincerely hope you all get out and reclaim your lives and your families and enjoy the true freedom that is available to you.
 

Krautfag

Patron Meritorious
She might be a nice person, I've never met her, but like Marty or any of the other higher execs, until she reports in to the law, all other talk about her is "bypassing charge".

I don't know if you care about anything I say, but I vouch for Karen being active in this direction.
And that's about all I am going to say on this matter.
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
<snip> People who leave Scientology fall into 3 main categories:
  1. Those who left and just forgot all about it and moved on;
  2. Those who left the organization but acknowledge the gains they got from the tech;
  3. Those who became totally antagonistic to the whole subject.
<snip>
Hey! This is kind'a fun!

And I was thinking we needed this thread to evolve naturally into analysis of OSA's PR and all that..

You know: OSAOSAOSAOSA!!!! :omg:

Allright. First category from the above list are the former scientologists who does like Ron and CoS policy tell 'em to do. OSA have no beef with 'em. If they leave CoS alone, they will be left alone. Any kid can understand that.. (That's a Hubbard quote btw.. Aside from being standard Mafia and street gang policy too!)

Second category.. Hmm.. They're not really out yet it seems. They want to be fair and reasonable about it. A diverse crowd certainly.. They can be sincere and they can still be intimidated by CofS... OSA sometimes have beef with these characters! - But not always, more about that later!

Third category: OSA always have beef with these damnable SP's!!! - There's just no reasoning with these utter basterds! - They won't buy into ANY OSA shorestories, and they suspect even the most innoscent attempts at mental manipulation from operatives. These are the true SP's! - They are in blatant violation of Hubbard's expressed policy that they should STFU about Scientology's fraudulence and abuses!

Ah.. I did intend to start an OSA planthunt.. (Like being on the lookout for trifids!)

First category: No OSA flunkies in this crowd. Well, OSA might check up on em occasionally, just to make sure they still STFU.. And the THIRD category probably has no OSA pukes either.

The Second category however! - This category is where we find the OSA goons.. This category has the potential for PR damage control and proselytizing! - This is the category where an OSA puke can find a viable cover identity with which he can fill our heads with bevildering Hubbardian balderdash!

Hmm.. It is also possible to analyze the categories with Hubbard's Black Panther principle.. It's flawed, but WTF.. The hardass critics looks like the cool asskicking panther killers!

:fighting:
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
C.N. told me that Karen saved his life some 30 years ago. He was a public on his OT levels then. The Flag zombies harassed him, wrong indications, labeled him "security risk" and appended a security guard to him 24/7 for absolutely nothing. He was close to despair when Karen called him personally one evening


So many perspectives on one post.
The first thing that caught my attention (and kept it) from this post was the fact that some poor sod had a security guard on him 24/7.

Not knocking the kudos to Karen for her kind handling, not knocking CN for his grateful words, not knocking Motti for posting....but for the love of God....a security guard 24/7 because he was deemed a security risk!!

What kind of church or self help group does that?
 
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