Karen's list of class 12's

[RogerB]

Good posts, Mims.

Lucid, well expressed and logical.

Folks who have not had the types of experiences you enumerate or the types of experiences I have written on, can of course doubt or cast disparagement on our recounting the details . . . and to be noted is they do so based on no personal experience other than occlusion on the subject or of having absorbed others' negative opinion on these matters.

When, as in my case, the types of experience you enumerate were witnessed by others that they affected in the real physical world such that they left quite colossal and memorable impressions on them, then one can truly say that the events we describe are real.

But, in actuality, for those too in fear of these phenomena to consider them possible or for those who have decided the matter is closed within their belief system, it is in actuality an exercise in futility to try and help them see what we see.

Rog

 

[JustSheila]

Not spiritual? Nah. If you find your self out side your body, and looking around, how is that not spiritual?

Mimsey, somehow you've skipped over the spiritual aspects completely, even skipped over the most important part of my post to you. Spiritual enlightenment/wholeness/regenerated love, connectedness to friends and family and centeredness was not part of your experiences as you described them. Real or not, they sound hollow and meaningless, not spiritual.

I only wrote what I perceived. For me those were real experiences. You have every right to discount them, explain them away, believe them or not. I am not, as the Head Guru and only adherent of Mimseyism, the worlds smallest cult, looking to make recruits out of you.

I am only saying this happened to me (or my wife). The truth of it will be evident to you when you croak, if you don't leave your body, and all is blackness, or you do and see the white light, or simply float free of your body, and do whatever comes next.

I always find stories of exteriorization very interesting, and I suppose some others do as well. Are they proof of anything? That's for you to decide. Check out these see what you think.

A girl I met at flag was telling me how she would leave her body and fly (or soar) up and down the streets of San Francisco. She said it happened to he multiple times.

A "wog" told me he was sleeping, and was floating near the ceiling when he saw the mirror on the ceiling give way, He jerked his body aside and the mirror crashed onto his bed, covering it with broken glass.

A childhood friend told me, he was with his girl friend of a few years, eating at an out side cafe and some guy walked over, started talking to her, she said good by to Michael, and walked out of his life with the guy. Michael had a sudden shift of perception, and could see through the walls of the buildings around him, see people in their rooms, doing what ever.

There are plenty of OBE's that one can find, as well as NDEs, in literature. Some go back as far as written history.

To discount any or all of them is your prerogative, though I think it is an extreme position to take.

Mimsey

I don't discount you believe you experienced these things, it might or might not be so, but I question your interpretation of them. You have more of a 'thriillseeker' attitude toward these experiences, the wilder the better, and you love talking about the most incredible, outrageous things you've heard or read. It's like an odd sort of bragging or continually feeling you must assert to anyone you can that you or others have superpowerz. It makes me think of the extreme sports people that have to keep getting a higher thrill until they die. I asked you to have a closer look at your interpretation and that what you describe (and even the way you describe others' experiences) because it doesn't sound 'spiritual' at all. Again, what you don't describe is balance, harmony, feelings of calm, love, centeredness and connectedness with your self, life and loved ones. What you describe is more like a big kick and maybe even an addiction to extreme altered states. Druggies describe similar attitudes and experiences.

 

[JustSheila]

Maybe sanity was a wrong choice of words. To me it meant knowing what the true circumstances of my life was. That knowingness, has been a sort of rudder. Why did I get involved in Scientology for 40+ years? It was a spiritual quest of sorts, to understand who I was better.

One time, I was really caving myself in. I was on staff at NYO, I had been paid like two bucks, and I was seriously considering blowing staff to keep from starving. I was down at the subway entrance and I thought I had hit bottom and I left my body. I was beside myself in the subway. But that awareness that I wasn't my poor hungry body, some how it gave me a re-established view of my self. It gave me a hope for the future. The next day, Sherman Dryer asked me if I'd like to be the org's night cleaner, I said yes, and was making $28 a week, which was more than some execs made on Hubbard's messed up proportional pay plan.

So, yeah, that's why I called it sanity - the experience informed me who and what I was.

Mimsey

Bold is mine.

Our posts crossed.

Thanks. This is what I mean by spiritual. And hitting rock bottom first before finding the importance of free will and the ability to rise above a situation within one's self is definitely spiritual. I didn't see that sort of description in your other experiences.

 

[JustSheila]

Good posts, Mims.

Lucid, well expressed and logical.

Folks who have not had the types of experiences you enumerate or the types of experiences I have written on, can of course doubt or cast disparagement on our recounting the details . . . and to be noted is they do so based on no personal experience other than occlusion on the subject or of having absorbed others' negative opinion on these matters.

When, as in my case, the types of experience you enumerate were witnessed by others that they affected in the real physical world such that they left quite colossal and memorable impressions on them, then one can truly say that the events we describe are real.

But, in actuality, for those too in fear of these phenomena to consider them possible or for those who have decided the matter is closed within their belief system, it is in actuality an exercise in futility to try and help them see what we see.

Rog

You've completely missed the point, Roger. Completely.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Mimsey, somehow you've skipped over the spiritual aspects completely, even skipped over the most important part of my post to you. Spiritual enlightenment/wholeness/regenerated love, connectedness to friends and family and centeredness was not part of your experiences as you described them. Real or not, they sound hollow and meaningless, not spiritual.

Perhaps you expect that to happen? Perhaps it is a hidden standard? For me, I simply was at a location outside my body and perceiving. It wasn't any different than looking through my eyes. I didn't have the 360 degree perception others have experienced. It was kinda mundane. Kinda normal. There was no sudden love for mankind, or seeing life flowing through the trees, or seeing electricity in wires, much as shown in the movie Lucy.

I was just myself, looking.

I don't discount you believe you experienced these things, it might or might not be so, but I question your interpretation of them. You have more of a 'thriillseeker' attitude toward these experiences, the wilder the better, and you love talking about the most incredible, outrageous things you've heard or read. It's like an odd sort of bragging or continually feeling you must assert to anyone you can that you or others have superpowerz. It makes me think of the extreme sports people that have to keep getting a higher thrill until they die. I asked you to have a closer look at your interpretation and that what you describe (and even the way you describe others' experiences) because it doesn't sound 'spiritual' at all. Again, what you don't describe is balance, harmony, feelings of calm, love, centeredness and connectedness with your self, life and loved ones. What you describe is more like a big kick and maybe even an addiction to extreme altered states. Druggies describe similar attitudes and experiences.

Well, OK. If I do have such an experience, I will let you know. But as yet I haven't.

You say all these things are extraordinary, that I relate, and maybe that is part of the fascination. They stand out from day to day life. I don't dwell on them all the time, it's just something unusual that happened. Like when I hear the phone ring after I have been thinking about a person, and it's them. Does it happen one for one? Sorry James Randi, it doesn't.

But bragging is an interesting concept, especially when it comes to posting. Aren't we all guilty of that? Don't you get some thrill or satisfaction when you get likes for a post you made?

Mimsey

 

[Elronius of Marcabia]

The mind abhors a vaccum the idea of nothingness will be filled.
When considering your own mortality the creativity is one of those
amazing human qualitys including the "realness" of an experience.

It's proof of nothing except that experiences exist, and if it comforts a person
in the face death cool with me

What I find rather repulsive is when it gets to the point that the so called chosen ones
are some how superior or seperate in their so called knowledge, and the poor unfrotunate souls
who don't have this view are afraid and negative and perhaps beyond help by the
enlightened ones, the level of arrogance and pretension is disturbing and quite
unatractive

Tribalism has been around a very long time and I doubt it's going to go away
anytime soon, birds of a feather flock together, their own flaws unseen

CockaDoodle Doo and mornin y'all :wink2:

 

[JustSheila]

Perhaps you expect that to happen? Perhaps it is a hidden standard? For me, I simply was at a location outside my body and perceiving. It wasn't any different than looking through my eyes. I didn't have the 360 degree perception others have experienced. It was kinda mundane. Kinda normal. There was no sudden love for mankind, or seeing life flowing through the trees, or seeing electricity in wires, much as shown in the movie Lucy.

I was just myself, looking.

Thanks. And thanks for paying attention to what I was saying, too.

Shift of perception or exterior? Does it matter what it's called? As Gib pointed out, does it matter at all? Does one person's extreme interpretation become more important or relevant than another's of the same experience, whether it's a biological phenomenon or not?

Mimsey, it's happened to me, too, and probably the majority (if not all) the people here, whether believers or atheists. It's no big deal to me. It is to you, though, because of your interpretations. The experience is not so different, but the interpretations are. To me, its a 'who the hell cares, stuff happens, okay. Not even worth mentioning. To you the same experience is a 'Wowy Zowy, I need to keep writing about these supernatural experiences and telling people!' BIG difference in interpretation. There seems to be an assumption by scns (and some exes and a certain follower of Mimseyism, lol) that they ALONE experience these things or that they are rare or special. Actually, people have odd perceptions all the time. Does the fact that one group may make a big deal out of it or have an outrageous interpretation mean that the others don't experience things? Does it mean either is more powerful or aware than the other? No. It doesn't. Think about that. I don't write about every time a train goes by, either.

'Perhaps it is a hidden standard' I love that you brought that up, I was about to ask the same thing of you, lol.

It is human nature to try to re-experience the best highs, the best moments of clarity, the happiest moments of our lives. Some spend a lifetime chasing these, to try to have that extreme awesome feeling all the time. Maslow talks about this in detail in one of his books, and the troubles he had with students trying to re-experience the 'peak experiences' of their lives or trying to bring them on independent of life itself and never understanding the whole point of his life's work, that these experiences happen on their own within life. Any attempt to force them through drugs or other means is a shallow, false high compared to the actual, unique, personal spiritual experience.

Well, OK. If I do have such an experience, I will let you know. But as yet I haven't.

You described one. There are probably others. My child's birth was certainly one for me.

You say all these things are extraordinary, that I relate, and maybe that is part of the fascination. They stand out from day to day life. I don't dwell on them all the time, it's just something unusual that happened. Like when I hear the phone ring after I have been thinking about a person, and it's them. Does it happen one for one? Sorry James Randi, it doesn't.

But bragging is an interesting concept, especially when it comes to posting. Aren't we all guilty of that? Don't you get some thrill or satisfaction when you get likes for a post you made?

Mimsey

The way you interpret them is extraordinary. As I said above, maybe not the experiences themselves.

OMG I have the worst habit of checking my 'likes!' It gives me a group view, though, so I know if I've gotten a point across clearly or if I've completely missed the boat! But yeh, the outdoing each others spiritual experiences, the talk of obtaining the ultimate scn experiences, like 'ext with full perception' or 'outside time and space' are brags of a sort, IMO. Some people brag they have the best kids and put stickers all over their cars, too. I'm sure I talk way too much about relating to animals and I have a heap of flaws. I am not better than you in any way - I still need to fix a mistake in judgement I made last week. Outside my fields of knowledge I often get completely lost, and within them I'm still wrong plenty. Doesn't mean we can't exchange ideas and sometimes you might give me a new one (you do) or I might do the same.

Love to ya, Mims.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Thanks. And thanks for paying attention to what I was saying, too.

Shift of perception or exterior? Does it matter what it's called? As Gib pointed out, does it matter at all? Does one person's extreme interpretation become more important or relevant than another's of the same experience, whether it's a biological phenomenon or not?

Mimsey, it's happened to me, too, and probably the majority (if not all) the people here, whether believers or atheists. It's no big deal to me. It is to you, though, because of your interpretations. The experience is not so different, but the interpretations are. To me, its a 'who the hell cares, stuff happens, okay. Not even worth mentioning. To you the same experience is a 'Wowy Zowy, I need to keep writing about these supernatural experiences and telling people!' BIG difference in interpretation. There seems to be an assumption by scns (and some exes and a certain follower of Mimseyism, lol) that they ALONE experience these things or that they are rare or special. Actually, people have odd perceptions all the time. Does the fact that one group may make a big deal out of it or have an outrageous interpretation mean that the others don't experience things? Does it mean either is more powerful or aware than the other? No. It doesn't. Think about that. I don't write about every time a train goes by, either.

'Perhaps it is a hidden standard' I love that you brought that up, I was about to ask the same thing of you, lol.

It is human nature to try to re-experience the best highs, the best moments of clarity, the happiest moments of our lives. Some spend a lifetime chasing these, to try to have that extreme awesome feeling all the time. Maslow talks about this in detail in one of his books, and the troubles he had with students trying to re-experience the 'peak experiences' of their lives or trying to bring them on independent of life itself and never understanding the whole point of his life's work, that these experiences happen on their own within life. Any attempt to force them through drugs or other means is a shallow, false high compared to the actual, unique, personal spiritual experience.



You described one. There are probably others. My child's birth was certainly one for me.



The way you interpret them is extraordinary. As I said above, maybe not the experiences themselves.

OMG I have the worst habit of checking my 'likes!' It gives me a group view, though, so I know if I've gotten a point across clearly or if I've completely missed the boat! But yeh, the outdoing each others spiritual experiences, the talk of obtaining the ultimate scn experiences, like 'ext with full perception' or 'outside time and space' are brags of a sort, IMO. Some people brag they have the best kids and put stickers all over their cars, too. I'm sure I talk way too much about relating to animals and I have a heap of flaws. I am not better than you in any way - I still need to fix a mistake in judgement I made last week. Outside my fields of knowledge I often get completely lost, and within them I'm still wrong plenty. Doesn't mean we can't exchange ideas and sometimes you might give me a new one (you do) or I might do the same.

Love to ya, Mims.

I think we be Grokin' Love ya too.

It can be frustrating, when you spend what seems like hours, getting a post just right, and you get zip. Or ( and this has happened to me many times ) you start a thread and only a few or no responses at all. Ah, the highs and lows of being a writer.

Mimsey

 

[strativarius]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRrjLkVaHK8

 

[RogerB]

You've completely missed the point, Roger. Completely.

Maybe your point, but not the point . . .

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Good posts, Mims.

Lucid, well expressed and logical.

Folks who have not had the types of experiences you enumerate or the types of experiences I have written on, can of course doubt or cast disparagement on our recounting the details . . . and to be noted is they do so based on no personal experience other than occlusion on the subject or of having absorbed others' negative opinion on these matters.

When, as in my case, the types of experience you enumerate were witnessed by others that they affected in the real physical world such that they left quite colossal and memorable impressions on them, then one can truly say that the events we describe are real.

But, in actuality, for those too in fear of these phenomena to consider them possible or for those who have decided the matter is closed within their belief system, it is in actuality an exercise in futility to try and help them see what we see.

Rog

Here's a thought ... stop doing it then.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRrjLkVaHK8

Donavan was /is one of my favorites - he did so many great songs - Sand and Foam is a favorite. Thanks for that. Mimsey

 

[strativarius]

Donavan was /is one of my favorites - he did so many great songs - Sand and Foam is a favorite. Thanks for that. Mimsey

Well Mims, initially I wrote a post answering yours but decided it wasn't applicable, so I tried to think of a song from the sixties that reminded me of hallucinations and acid trips, and this is what came up. I'm glad you liked it.

 

[JustSheila]

Karen #1, can I ask you a question about Class XII?

I had always thought that Class IXs and XII's were required to do the Class VI course (BC) and Class VIII course first, as prerequisites.

I am referring to this thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...t-complete-SHSBC-or-the-Class-VIII-Course-WTF

where Bea Kiddo posts:

It has always been that way.

I was supposed to get trained as a Class IX for the Universe Corps. I trained up to Grad V at Flag, then they decided to put me on the BC.

The only reason you would do the BC/Class VIII and up route is if you were going to be a C/S.

There are two line up options:

Grad V route, then you can go straight to Class IX Course.

Or if you are going to do Class VIII Course, you have to do the BC first.

Its pretty common knowledge in the tech realms, but maybe not to average Scnist.

------------

And on another note, the Flag trained Class VI's found a way to play the tapes in higher speed to get through the lectures faster. I found out about it later. I listened to them all the slow way.... yawn.

Is this true, that there is the long route and then the short route to Class XII?

Was this always that way, or is that something that changed some time in the 80s or later?

I find this incredibly confusing.

Thanks.

 

[phenomanon]

My recollection of the HRD was that it was a bright spot in all the muck and mission network turmoil. I also thought it was Mayo's creation.

I did the HRD and liked it. Later, of course, it was demonized along with Mayo.

My "Success Story" from HRD was "I was much happier before I did this Rundown." That was accepted by Certs and Awards, and I got my Cert as an HRD auditor. I traded ASHO 100 hours of auditing HRD for my course. It was of interest to me that my PCs loved the Rundown.
I was sure that HRD had not come from LRH. I was pretty sure that Mayo had written it. By the time HRD was issued most of us "oldtimers" felt that LRH was not on tech lines, and there was speculation that he had died. This was 1982, I think.
I thought that the HRD was an insult to the State of OT.
The only thing on it that I liked at all were the 'valence shifting' and the 'false data stripping' that were included in the pap.

 

[Karen#1]

Karen #1, can I ask you a question about Class XII?

I had always thought that Class IXs and XII's were required to do the Class VI course (BC) and Class VIII course first, as prerequisites.

I am referring to this thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...t-complete-SHSBC-or-the-Class-VIII-Course-WTF

where Bea Kiddo posts:



Is this true, that there is the long route and then the short route to Class XII?

Was this always that way, or is that something that changed some time in the 80s or later?

I find this incredibly confusing.

Thanks.

Yes Sheila.
Of course the SHSBC is mandatory for Class IXs.
But then there is always $$$$revenue$$$$ and stats to think of within a Cult that runs like a business and masquerades as a cherch.
STATS Sheila STATS.
Anything goes for STATS.
There was back in the day a huge demand for NOTS.
So an express train was developed.
Class IVs and Class IVs were put onto NOTS training who had not done SHSBC.
This was for economic reasons and these auditors delivered NOTS so that well done
auditing hours and prepayments could be used up.
Later the illegalities of this hit home.
It was illegal against their very own policies.
So it all got revised and changed.
The poor delivery of having Class IVs exorcise BTs was blamed on Mayo.
Even called "mayonaisse NOTS."
But it was Greedy management hungry for more $$$$
that altered procedures and then pointed the finger.
So what else is new in the Cult ?​

 

[phenomanon]

Karen #1, can I ask you a question about Class XII?

I had always thought that Class IXs and XII's were required to do the Class VI course (BC) and Class VIII course first, as prerequisites.

I am referring to this thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...t-complete-SHSBC-or-the-Class-VIII-Course-WTF

where Bea Kiddo posts:



Is this true, that there is the long route and then the short route to Class XII?

Was this always that way, or is that something that changed some time in the 80s or later?

I find this incredibly confusing.

Thanks.

Wow!
I didn't know that there was a 'short route' to Cl9 etc, It would not have mattered to me because you have to be Sea Org to go beyond Cl8, and there was no fooking way I would've joined that clusterfuck. I had seen how SO lived. I can tolerate a lot, but Cockroaches crawling over my body at night, and getting Scabies and other itchy critters joining my bloodstream is simply not to be endured in my Universe. ( I was taken to a Moroccan MD for treatment of the Scabies infection. He painted me with the same stuff that they use on their Oxen. I swelled up like a pumpkin, My eyes swelled shut. Believe this or no...I stayed on OEC course and kept my fooking stats in Power, even though I was blind.
O the good old days! What fun being nullified as a Human being. NOT!

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Yes Sheila.
Of course the SHSBC is mandatory for Class IXs.
But then there is always $$$$revenue$$$$ and stats to think of within a Cult that runs like a business and masquerading as a cherch.
STATS Sheila STATS.
Anything goes for STATS.
There was back in the day a huge demand for NOTS.
So an express train was developed.
Class IVs and grad Class IVs were put onto NOTS training who had not done SHSBC.
This was for economic reasons and these auditors delivered NOTS so that well done
auditing hours and prepayments could be used up.
Later the illegalities of this hit home.
It was illegal against their very own policies.
So it all got revised and changed.
The poor delivery of having Class IVs exorcise BTs was blamed on Mayo.
Even called "mayonaisse NOTS."
But it was Greedy management hungry for more $$$$
that altered procedures and then pointed the finger.
So what else is new in the Cult ?​

Hi I fixed it

 

[JustSheila]

Yes Sheila.
Of course the SHSBC is mandatory for Class IXs.
But then there is always $$$$revenue$$$$ and stats to think of within a Cult that runs like a business and masquerading as a cherch.
STATS Sheila STATS.
Anything goes for STATS.
There was back in the day a huge demand for NOTS.
So an express train was developed.
Class IVs and Class IVs were put onto NOTS training who had not done SHSBC.
This was for economic reasons and these auditors delivered NOTS so that well done
auditing hours and prepayments could be used up.
Later the illegalities of this hit home.
It was illegal against their very own policies.
So it all got revised and changed.
The poor delivery of having Class IVs exorcise BTs was blamed on Mayo.
Even called "mayonaisse NOTS."
But it was Greedy management hungry for more $$$$
that altered procedures and then pointed the finger.
So what else is new in the Cult ?​

Thank you, Karen!

Wow, yeh, I seem to remember a BC tape on my Class V where L Ron said the BC was a prerequisite for Class VIII, so none of that made sense to me. Everybody paid the super high prices anyway, even when the auditors weren't all that trained or experienced, right? MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!

As you know, my experience as an SO members with Class VIIIs and Class XIIs was radically different from those that weren't. It wasn't about sessions themselves, so much as a deeper understanding of the harm that could be done by administration, by coerced or production or security-based auditing, and a genuine ability to tell the difference between harmful, destructive auditing and helping an individual.

I've known few VIIIs and XIIs personally, Karen, but they all stood up to administrative or tek abuses and often put their necks on the line to do so. They were not confused about whether a person was happy or not. They were not blinded and brainwashed to the point of hurting others and calling it help.

I won't name names, as some are still in the SO. Whatever it is they learned on the BC and VIII course, they knew very well that there was a dark side to Hubbard and a dark side to Scientology and to whatever degree they could protect others (while still believing in the tek, mind you), they did so. The IVs and Vs were pretty clueless on this, from my personal experience.

Was there anything you can remember on the BC or VIII courses that warned or alerted you or other auditors to the dark side of scn, administration and Hubbard?

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Yes Sheila.
Of course the SHSBC is mandatory for Class IXs.
But then there is always $$$$revenue$$$$ and stats to think of within a Cult that runs like a business and masquerading as a cherch.
STATS Sheila STATS.
Anything goes for STATS.
There was back in the day a huge demand for NOTS.
So an express train was developed.
Class IVs and grad Class IVs were put onto NOTS training who had not done SHSBC.
This was for economic reasons and these auditors delivered NOTS so that well done
auditing hours and prepayments could be used up.
Later the illegalities of this hit home.
It was illegal against their very own policies.
So it all got revised and changed.
The poor delivery of having Class IVs exorcise BTs was blamed on Mayo.
Even called "mayonaisse NOTS."
But it was Greedy management hungry for more $$$$
that altered procedures and then pointed the finger.
So what else is new in the Cult ?​

Hi I fixed it. If you were an interned IV or Grad IV, and you were a standard auditor, why would you need either the BC or cl 8?

EDIT:

The original BC that I did had two sections - the first being an expanded 0-4, an then there was the confidential 6 course, which had hundreds of R6 tapes, and HCOBs. I think the original intent was that a CL6 could repair goals listing etc. The CL 7 was all about review and power processing, and CL 8 was how to be a standard auditor, and how to do OT3 reviews. Then they ditched the confidential stuff from the BC and made it into a date order checksheet ( and there were several revisions of that) and I think a bunch of the 'how to be a standard auditor" stuff from the CL 8 course was exported.

So those courses became obsolete. At least that's my understanding.

Mimsey