Karen's list of class 12's

[George Layton]

Good posts, Mims.

Lucid, well expressed and logical.

Folks who have not had the types of experiences you enumerate or the types of experiences I have written on, can of course doubt or cast disparagement on our recounting the details . . . and to be noted is they do so based on no personal experience other than occlusion on the subject or of having absorbed others' negative opinion on these matters.

When, as in my case, the types of experience you enumerate were witnessed by others that they affected in the real physical world such that they left quite colossal and memorable impressions on them, then one can truly say that the events we describe are real.

But, in actuality, for those too in fear of these phenomena to consider them possible or for those who have decided the matter is closed within their belief system, it is in actuality an exercise in futility to try and help them see what we see.

Rog

Black and White. People point out that the experience may be something other than what you are AWARE it is and you write them off has not having had like experiences. I am saying when you jump in on another's experience as an expert on spiritual experience and turn it into your teaching them about their experience, it is no more then satisfying your ego and turning the person's experience into a deception for them. Your explaining to others what they have experienced is worse then people's disparagement, with disparagement a person can choose to ignore the comment but when you have some hubbardite come along and enthusiastically applaud you for having the experience and then explain it for you, because they are an expert on your awareness, that is a hook to set up a person for more misguidance. Every single person has their own experience through any myriad of happenings, thoughts, biological, social, physical, spiritual, mental, chemical events. Their entire lives living their ongoing awareness has brought them to and will carry them on through their awakenings, how can anyone even pretend to understand where another is in their spiritual awakening? Is it futile of me to try to get you to see that?

 

[Dulloldfart]

Yes Sheila.
Of course the SHSBC is mandatory for Class IXs.

It is? Did they change it? BTW, I've never known the SHSBC not to be a pre-req to Class VIII, if anyone thinks that is the case.

Back around 1975 when Class IX was some kind of weird BTB course, then Class VIII was a pre-req. Not many people did Class IX that I recall: it didn't have a lot of cachet associated with it.

When NOTs first came out the pre-reqs for NOTs auditor were Grad V, I think. A year or so later the Grade Chart got rejiggered and NOTs Auditors magically became Class IXs. Per this Grade Chart, the last one I remember seeing, the pre-reqs are Grad V plus "Hubbard Advanced Courses Review Auditor". Or Class VIII. Class VIII used to be a pre-req to the Solo Review Auditor Course that did reviews for OT2, OT3, etc; at SH these reviews got done in the Solo Tech Div (Div 4A) by a couple of non-SO VIIIs who'd done the review auditor course (Ruth Abbo and Faith Hudson). I vaguely remember such reviews shifting to the NOTs Div (Div 4B) around 1984, so I guess the NOTs auditors had done the new review auditor course with the lesser pre-reqs.

Grade Chart: http://www.scientologymyths.info/definitions/gradechart.html (the image is huge so I haven't pasted it in here).

Later I remember some plan to make Class VIII a pre-req to the NOTs Auditor course, but I really can't imagine them keeping that in place for long.

Paul

 

[Leon-2]

Is it possible that you had these experiences, but the interpretation you've given them just might possibly be incorrect? Are you willing to 'think outside the box' of your own interpretations for a few minutes, or are you deadset stubborn about your interpretations being correct?

This ^^^^^ must surely rank among the MOST covertly hostile invalidations ever uttered by anyone anywhere.

 

[JustSheila]

This ^^^^^ must surely rank among the MOST covertly hostile invalidations ever uttered by anyone anywhere.

Wrong.

Ad hom, much?

Don't even try to twist my words to mean something they didn't. In Psychology, it's called 'projection' when you project your feelings or problems on someone else. Bad look for an auditor, Leon. Try to keep your dark thoughts and ad hom twists to yourself and off the Board.

 

[Leon-2]

It is? Did they change it? BTW, I've never known the SHSBC not to be a pre-req to Class VIII, if anyone thinks that is the case.

Back around 1975 when Class IX was some kind of weird BTB course, then Class VIII was a pre-req. Not many people did Class IX that I recall: it didn't have a lot of cachet associated with it.

When NOTs first came out the pre-reqs for NOTs auditor were Grad V, I think. A year or so later the Grade Chart got rejiggered and NOTs Auditors magically became Class IXs. Per this Grade Chart, the last one I remember seeing, the pre-reqs are Grad V plus "Hubbard Advanced Courses Review Auditor". Or Class VIII. Class VIII used to be a pre-req to the Solo Review Auditor Course that did reviews for OT2, OT3, etc; at SH these reviews got done in the Solo Tech Div (Div 4A) by a couple of non-SO VIIIs who'd done the review auditor course (Ruth Abbo and Faith Hudson). I vaguely remember such reviews shifting to the NOTs Div (Div 4B) around 1984, so I guess the NOTs auditors had done the new review auditor course with the lesser pre-reqs.

Grade Chart: http://www.scientologymyths.info/definitions/gradechart.html (the image is huge so I haven't pasted it in here).

Later I remember some plan to make Class VIII a pre-req to the NOTs Auditor course, but I really can't imagine them keeping that in place for long.

Paul

Many, if not most, of the original Class 8s were guys who had done quickie lower grades and had received quickies themselves, consequently - as was discovered after expanded grades were released in the middle of 1970 - they hadn't a bloody clue on how to audit or list or much else. So the 9 course was introduced to pull all of these guy in to Flag to get them [properly trained and interned. I was on Flag at the time.

Later when the original bunch of 8s were fixed up as far as was going to happen the 9 course was broadened and its purpose slightly shifted. So in a sense, the 9 course was a remedy. After the remedy was complete they didn't know quite what to do with it so it sort of got shoved around a bit.

 

[Leon-2]

Wrong.

Ad hom, much?

Don't even try to twist my words to mean something they didn't. In Psychology, it's called 'projection' when you project your feelings or problems on someone else. Bad look for an auditor, Leon. Try to keep your dark thoughts and ad hom twists to yourself and off the Board.

Sheila, why can you not just sit back and allow a person to describe his own experience in his own way?

Why is this so hard?

 

[JustSheila]

What is this, bullbait?

Why can't you let two people enjoy a nice conversation without trying to cause trouble?

 

[Moderator 3375]

Please keep discussions about the subject of the thread, not each other.

Thanks
Mod 3375

 

[Hypatia]

This ^^^^^ must surely rank among the MOST covertly hostile invalidations ever uttered by anyone anywhere.

I don't take it as 1.1. I think Sheila's earnest.

 

[Enthetan]

Wow!
I didn't know that there was a 'short route' to Cl9 etc, It would not have mattered to me because you have to be Sea Org to go beyond Cl8, and there was no fooking way I would've joined that clusterfuck. I had seen how SO lived. I can tolerate a lot, but Cockroaches crawling over my body at night, and getting Scabies and other itchy critters joining my bloodstream is simply not to be endured in my Universe. ( I was taken to a Moroccan MD for treatment of the Scabies infection. He painted me with the same stuff that they use on their Oxen. I swelled up like a pumpkin, My eyes swelled shut. Believe this or no...I stayed on OEC course and kept my fooking stats in Power, even though I was blind.
O the good old days! What fun being nullified as a Human being. NOT!

I encountered NOTs auditors who went there directly from Class IV (or was it V?), but definitely skipped BC and Cl VIII

And these Class IV/IX auditors were auditing high-paying Flag public in the FSO HGC.

 

[Enthetan]

As you know, my experience as an SO members with Class VIIIs and Class XIIs was radically different from those that weren't. It wasn't about sessions themselves, so much as a deeper understanding of the harm that could be done by administration, by coerced or production or security-based auditing, and a genuine ability to tell the difference between harmful, destructive auditing and helping an individual.

I've known few VIIIs and XIIs personally, Karen, but they all stood up to administrative or tek abuses and often put their necks on the line to do so. They were not confused about whether a person was happy or not. They were not blinded and brainwashed to the point of hurting others and calling it help.

Which may be why Class IV's were pushed up, and SHSBC no longer seems to be delivered.

 

[Enthetan]

Many, if not most, of the original Class 8s were guys who had done quickie lower grades and had received quickies themselves, consequently - as was discovered after expanded grades were released in the middle of 1970 - they hadn't a bloody clue on how to audit or list or much else. So the 9 course was introduced to pull all of these guy in to Flag to get them [properly trained and interned. I was on Flag at the time.

Later when the original bunch of 8s were fixed up as far as was going to happen the 9 course was broadened and its purpose slightly shifted. So in a sense, the 9 course was a remedy. After the remedy was complete they didn't know quite what to do with it so it sort of got shoved around a bit.

Yes, my recollection of the (pre-NOTs) Class 9 course was that it covered things that were not included in the original Class VIII. Then they took the NOTs course and made it the new Class IX.

 

[Gib]

Good posts, Mims.

Lucid, well expressed and logical.

Folks who have not had the types of experiences you enumerate or the types of experiences I have written on, can of course doubt or cast disparagement on our recounting the details . . . and to be noted is they do so based on no personal experience other than occlusion on the subject or of having absorbed others' negative opinion on these matters.

When, as in my case, the types of experience you enumerate were witnessed by others that they affected in the real physical world such that they left quite colossal and memorable impressions on them, then one can truly say that the events we describe are real.

But, in actuality, for those too in fear of these phenomena to consider them possible or for those who have decided the matter is closed within their belief system, it is in actuality an exercise in futility to try and help them see what we see.

Rog

Well, when I was a kid I had numerous times when I was OBE, happened every night for weeks. I was on the ceiling, at least it felt that that way. Never told anybody, it was just a weird feeling. A couple of times in auditing had gone exterior, I guess I did as Hubbard said so. My earlier kid OBE's were made valid by reading Hubbard BS, funny how that works.

The promo for for the L's really got me to want to do those rundowns, being exterior with full perception, WOW, my mind sure mocked-up (imagined) things I could do, carrot on a stick. But now, I've moved on. I don't see any reason to pursue such things and especially in the COS with it's corrupt nature and money grabbing BS for BS. LOL

As I wrote, having a OBE to me is well, so what, who cares. Like you can push your body around while being 3 feet back of it, watching it with full perception, who cares. LOL

So no, I'm not fearful, just don't care.

This all reminds me of Hubbards MEST Beings vs. Theta Beings.

ps, I never got involved for spiritual or religious reasons, 26 years later I finally said to myself, what the fuk is this shit, and why am I doing it. Just to have OBE's, LOL

 

[Karen#1]

Thank you, Karen!
Wow, yeh, I seem to remember a BC tape on my Class V where L Ron said the BC was a prerequisite for Class VIII, so none of that made sense to me. Everybody paid the super high prices anyway, even when the auditors weren't all that trained or experienced, right? MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!

As you know, my experience as an SO members with Class VIIIs and Class XIIs was radically different from those that weren't. It wasn't about sessions themselves, so much as a deeper understanding of the harm that could be done by administration, by coerced or production or security-based auditing, and a genuine ability to tell the difference between harmful, destructive auditing and helping an individual.

I've known few VIIIs and XIIs personally, Karen, but they all stood up to administrative or tek abuses and often put their necks on the line to do so. They were not confused about whether a person was happy or not. They were not blinded and brainwashed to the point of hurting others and calling it help.

I won't name names, as some are still in the SO. Whatever it is they learned on the BC and VIII course, they knew very well that there was a dark side to Hubbard and a dark side to Scientology and to whatever degree they could protect others (while still believing in the tek, mind you), they did so. The IVs and Vs were pretty clueless on this, from my personal experience.

Was there anything you can remember on the BC or VIII courses that warned or alerted you or other auditors to the dark side of scn, administration and Hubbard?

Cool Post Sheila.

I would agree with you that higher classed auditors were harder to tame into submissiveness, hence 90% of Class XIIs all declared suppressive. LOL.

98% of Class XII CSes declared suppressive.
There is a class VIII confidential tape called "Ethics and Conditions" or some similar wording.
It was a 2 hour tape.

The entire 2 hours, Hubbard talks about returning to their various Orgs and whipping them into shape. PUNISHMENT, convening Courts of Ethics, Convening Comm Evs, using ETHICS PRESENCE to smash and subdue. To use Class VIII status to beat them into submission so to speak. This was the year of the original over boarding even for those who could not swim. One Class VIII student got so traumatized that they left the Apollo after being fished out of the ocean.

There is not one word in this entire 2 hour Class VIII lecture coaching on compassion, loyalty, forgiveness, generosity, helping others. Not a word.
There is nothing about Spirituality or the Spiritual nature of a human.
It is only about punishment and dominance and how to do it.

In the tunnel as a junior Class VIII I did not get that.
In later years re-listening, it was a paradigm shift.
I saw much more than I can put in words.
I could not un-ring the bell.

There is NO WAY anyone cowering and subdued is going to go higher spiritually while waiting for the guillotine to fall.
The Sea org is a culture of fear. The next senior thug will dramatize what trickles downward.

Oh how great to be out of all of That !
And here's a *KIND* thought and friendly wishes to all those stuck in the spiritual black hole who cannot find their way out.

​

 

[JustSheila]

Cool Post Sheila.

I would agree with you that higher classed auditors were harder to tame into submissiveness, hence 90% of Class XIIs all declared suppressive. LOL.

98% of Class XII CSes declared suppressive.
There is a class VIII confidential tape called "Ethics and Conditions" or some similar wording.
It was a 2 hour tape.

The entire 2 hours, Hubbard talks about returning to their various Orgs and whipping them into shape. PUNISHMENT, convening Courts of Ethics, Convening Comm Evs, using ETHICS PRESENCE to smash and subdue. To use Class VIII status to beat them into submission so to speak. This was the year of the original over boarding even for those who could not swim. One Class VIII student got so traumatized that they left the Apollo after being fished out of the ocean.

There is not one word in this entire 2 hour Class VIII lecture coaching on compassion, loyalty, forgiveness, generosity, helping others. Not a word.
There is nothing about Spirituality or the Spiritual nature of a human.
It is only about punishment and dominance and how to do it.

In the tunnel as a junior Class VIII I did not get that.
In later years re-listening, it was a paradigm shift.
I saw much more than I can put in words.
I could not un-ring the bell.

There is NO WAY anyone cowering and subdued is going to go higher spiritually while waiting for the guillotine to fall.
The Sea org is a culture of fear. The next senior thug will dramatize what trickles downward.​

Karen.

That is one powerful post. Shocking. Unholy psychotic internal warfare using those most trusted to assist those in need under the pretense of 'saving the planet.'

For many years I suspected something like this, but even now, it makes my heart about jump out of my chest to have it confirmed. I suspected, but this is the biggest betrayal of all - that the very people who spent years training and working to free others were assigned the task of becoming exclusive tyrants and dominate, subjugate, brutalize and abuse others. And when do they learn their 'true mission'? After training Class I, II, III, IV, after 2-3 years on the Briefing Course and finally arriving for another year or so at the top - the Class VIII course, to find they are actually assigned to be abusers and jailers.

Evil beyond words. My mind can't even grasp it fully yet. For the young, excited VIIIs like you, it must have taken months or years and a lot of rehashing the words of that tape to comprehend even a slice of that.

It seems most eventually did, though.

Off the top of my head I know of three seasoned Class VIIIs and a Class XII who, in the 80s, put themselves between and protected staff members from abuse. They gave information to individual staff when management would have split up couples or parents from children and advice to keep this from happening (good advice that worked!), they stopped auditing from being forced on staff members who would be harmed by it, they refused to play any part of that. They stopped sec checks, isolation assignments, even Declares. I am not kidding or exaggerating. I was in awe of these powerful, autonomous people who seemed to have a common goal of standing up to management abuse.

They knew, Karen, they KNEW it was part of a plan and these people were victims. They intentionally interfered with almost a vengeance. They were the backbone of AOLA!

I will name one of those people, as I am certain by now she is deceased, and I think you might remember her: Lorita Hill. RIP, sweet, spunky, brave Lorita! God bless her. Edie Lundeen was one of her best friends, with a similar heart but I didn't know her as well. RIP, Edie.

Thank you for being here with us and telling us the truth, Karen. I'm sorry you went through that. What a horrible secret to give an auditor, what a horrible thing to hear to be assigned to you, when you only wanted to be an auditor to help people and were asked to betray and abuse in the dirtiest, ugliest, most horrible way at the very top of your training. Overboarding. A Class VIII who nearly drowned. That is so fucked up, how could anyone think with that?

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Black and White. People point out that the experience may be something other than what you are AWARE it is and you write them off has not having had like experiences. I am saying when you jump in on another's experience as an expert on spiritual experience and turn it into your teaching them about their experience, it is no more then satisfying your ego and turning the person's experience into a deception for them. Your explaining to others what they have experienced is worse then people's disparagement, with disparagement a person can choose to ignore the comment but when you have some hubbardite come along and enthusiastically applaud you for having the experience and then explain it for you, because they are an expert on your awareness, that is a hook to set up a person for more misguidance. Every single person has their own experience through any myriad of happenings, thoughts, biological, social, physical, spiritual, mental, chemical events. Their entire lives living their ongoing awareness has brought them to and will carry them on through their awakenings, how can anyone even pretend to understand where another is in their spiritual awakening? Is it futile of me to try to get you to see that?

You just said what I've been thinking, but you were kinder than I would have been ... I was going to say (with my best pouty face on) "if I ever want some ferret faced fucker to lecture and train me on their version of spirituality, I'll ask" ........ but that would've been a bit rude wouldn't it?

In all seriousness, the most easy to be around, spiritual people I know are completely content to get on with their own lives and leave others to get on with theirs, with no apparent inclination to question everything, perform for an audience, "assist others to see things correctly", or create any kind of pecking order (with them perched firmly at the top peering down at the great unwashed and "occluded").

I have no desire to spend any time with someone who is working to a business plan that will assist him or her to achieve their goal to be recognised (finally) as some kind of spiritual advisor.

Spirituality (for me) is about a lightness of being and I choose communing with nature, quiet contemplation of my own thoughts, music and the occasional overdose of laughter to bring that about.

Call me old fashioned but I neither need nor want approval or any of the products currently on the market that utilise smoke and mirrors, tricks, whistles, bells or aggression along with thinly veiled threats of eternal damnation (from an over stimulated imagination which has possibly already sent it's owner quite mad).

 

[Knows]

Karen.

That is one powerful post. Shocking. Unholy psychotic internal warfare using those most trusted to assist those in need under the pretense of 'saving the planet.'

For many years I suspected something like this, but even now, it makes my heart about jump out of my chest to have it confirmed. I suspected, but this is the biggest betrayal of all - that the very people who spent years training and working to free others were assigned the task of becoming exclusive tyrants and dominate, subjugate, brutalize and abuse others. And when do they learn their 'true mission'? After training Class I, II, III, IV, after 2-3 years on the Briefing Course and finally arriving for another year or so at the top - the Class VIII course, to find they are actually assigned to be abusers and jailers.

Evil beyond words. My mind can't even grasp it fully yet. For the young, excited VIIIs like you, it must have taken months or years and a lot of rehashing the words of that tape to comprehend even a slice of that.

It seems most eventually did, though.

Off the top of my head I know of three seasoned Class VIIIs and a Class XII who, in the 80s, put themselves between and protected staff members from abuse. They gave information to individual staff when management would have split up couples or parents from children and advice to keep this from happening (good advice that worked!), they stopped auditing from being forced on staff members who would be harmed by it, they refused to play any part of that. They stopped sec checks, isolation assignments, even Declares. I am not kidding or exaggerating. I was in awe of these powerful, autonomous people who seemed to have a common goal of standing up to management abuse.

They knew, Karen, they KNEW it was part of a plan and these people were victims. They intentionally interfered with almost a vengeance. They were the backbone of AOLA!

I will name one of those people, as I am certain by now she is deceased, and I think you might remember her: Lorita Hill. RIP, sweet, spunky, brave Lorita! God bless her. Edie Lundeen was one of her best friends, with a similar heart but I didn't know her as well. RIP, Edie.

Thank you for being here with us and telling us the truth, Karen. I'm sorry you went through that. What a horrible secret to give an auditor, what a horrible thing to hear to be assigned to you, when you only wanted to be an auditor to help people and were asked to betray and abuse in the dirtiest, ugliest, most horrible way at the very top of your training. Overboarding. A Class VIII who nearly drowned. That is so fucked up, how could anyone think with that?

Scientology - if it isn't cruel and inhumane - it just isn't Scientology.

 

[Enthetan]

The entire 2 hours, Hubbard talks about returning to their various Orgs and whipping them into shape. PUNISHMENT, convening Courts of Ethics, Convening Comm Evs, using ETHICS PRESENCE to smash and subdue. To use Class VIII status to beat them into submission so to speak. This was the year of the original over boarding even for those who could not swim. One Class VIII student got so traumatized that they left the Apollo after being fished out of the ocean.
​

All psychotic leaders face a similar problem: there just aren't enough psychopaths to build a large organization with. Plus, psychopaths get bored and wander off if their own personal goals aren't being met.

So, the solution is to take good and decent people, and convince them that they need to punish others, for the good of everyone. That everyone they love is doomed, unless certain painful steps are taken. Once you have convinced good and decent people that inflicting horror on people is the only way to prevent greater horror, then there is no limit to the savagery you can accomplish.

Marlon Brando: "And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends"
[video=youtube;mPPGMNOLaMw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPGMNOLaMw[/video]

 

[Ted]

Cool Post Sheila.

I would agree with you that higher classed auditors were harder to tame into submissiveness, hence 90% of Class XIIs all declared suppressive. LOL.

98% of Class XII CSes declared suppressive.
There is a class VIII confidential tape called "Ethics and Conditions" or some similar wording.
It was a 2 hour tape.

The entire 2 hours, Hubbard talks about returning to their various Orgs and whipping them into shape. PUNISHMENT, convening Courts of Ethics, Convening Comm Evs, using ETHICS PRESENCE to smash and subdue. To use Class VIII status to beat them into submission so to speak. This was the year of the original over boarding even for those who could not swim. One Class VIII student got so traumatized that they left the Apollo after being fished out of the ocean.

There is not one word in this entire 2 hour Class VIII lecture coaching on compassion, loyalty, forgiveness, generosity, helping others. Not a word.
There is nothing about Spirituality or the Spiritual nature of a human.
It is only about punishment and dominance and how to do it.

In the tunnel as a junior Class VIII I did not get that.
In later years re-listening, it was a paradigm shift.
I saw much more than I can put in words.
I could not un-ring the bell.

There is NO WAY anyone cowering and subdued is going to go higher spiritually while waiting for the guillotine to fall.
The Sea org is a culture of fear. The next senior thug will dramatize what trickles downward.

Oh how great to be out of all of That !
And here's a *KIND* thought and friendly wishes to all those stuck in the spiritual black hole who cannot find their way out.

​

It was on this board or the usenet group alt.clearing.technology where Alan Walter referred to LRH being nuts during the delivery of the class 8 course.

After hearing of the reversal of basic scio philosophy and tech during the course I believe ACW was correct in his statement.

Like the paraphrase, "At lower levels we say 'What is true for you is what you have observed yourself.' On this course it is true because I say so.”

 

[George Layton]

It was on this board or the usenet group alt.clearing.technology where Alan Walter referred to LRH being nuts during the delivery of the class 8 course.

After hearing of the reversal of basic scio philosophy and tech during the course I believe ACW was correct in his statement.

Like the paraphrase, "At lower levels we say 'What is true for you is what you have observed yourself.' On this course it is true because I say so.”

Isn't the entire hubbard philosophy replete with reversal?