Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
When I was roughly 12 - 14 years old, I was really, really into WWII history. Actually, I was into it for far longer than that, but in this period my father and I met an art dealer, who was in Alexandria, Virginia at the time. She dealt almost exclusively in paintings of aerial combat from WWII. Many of those paintings were signed, not only by the artist, but by the aces depicted therein. I was fascinated to find a couple of paintings with the signatures of Erich Hartmann and Adolf Galland. And then she dropped the bombshell - Galland himself often came to her gallery.

Thus I managed to meet on several occasions, and briefly correspond with, a man whom Hitler had personally decorated. Galland was a likable guy. He was affable, self-effacing, and always ready to talk about aviation in the Second World War.

Later I learned he had been involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler, and had not been shot mostly because of his propaganda value. He was sent to command a Me 262 unit - not a usual command for a fighter pilot general - in the hopes those fickle machines would kill him. When he failed to die in those jets, he took his entire command to Austria to evade capture by the Russians, giving the US a valuable asset from Germany's arsenal.

This was my first foray into the world of morals in the shade of gray. I genuinely liked Galland. He made at least one huge friendly gesture to the US in the war, and he had soured on Hitler and tried to get him killed.

But.

Where was his outrage when Poland took the hit in 1939? He served Hitler well enough to become his youngest general. Was he one of the Good Guys, or not?

I think, on the whole, not. Did he redeem himself? In my eyes, yes. But I could very well see the point of view of people who look at all of his actions at the end of the war and afterwards as serving multiple stakeholders, not least of which was .... Adolf Galland. I liked they guy. But I can see the perspective of someone who thinks he should have been hanged at Nuremberg.

And thus we come to the point of this thread.

There are people whose names seem to generate a fair amount of awe and respect on the boards. Some of that respect appears to be earned, in many cases. However, there also appears to be a reluctance to examine the full history and the actions of these people. Some of that, in the case of living posters, may be the result of an unspoken truce. The feuds between some of the critics do nothing except embolden the Co$. On the other hand, there are some legitimate beefs. I, myself am pretty leery of M&M until they come completely clean - as are a lot of folks.

The funny thing I've observed, though, is certain people - especially those who have contributed to the informal history of the beginnings of the church - get a pass on their behavior. This would include, to my mind, Alan Walter, the Pilot and David Mayo. Now it looks as if this also includes Sara Northrup. Interesting...

This, to an outsider, looks like Laffy's Kha Khan doctrine still in action. Mostly, these are people who suffered mightily at the hands of Laffy, but like Galland, not all of their behavior is pristine. It's perfectly legitimate to come to the defense of an old friend, but when that old friend has a lot of public, dirty laundry hanging out there, don't expect outsiders - or even all insiders - to bow to a desire to ignore the bad and praise the good. All humans are a mixture of bad and good, and we do them a disservice to put them on a pedestal when we are assessing their historical impact.

Those of us who think the tech is dangerous in all its forms aren't going to cotton to anyone preaching it.

I'll repost some posts from other threads, and have at it.
 
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Lone Star

Crusader
Ya know....I bet your exuberant fascination with WWII is due to the very strong possibility that you were there in your most recent past life. :yes: Oh yes! It fits. I've been able to figure out that you and I are both approximately the same age, so the math works.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Oh I kid the U!



Fascinating story and I believe I get your point. This should be good. Thread might even go Grunge! Er....I mean Grudge! :wink2:
 

Leland

Crusader
I understand what you are saying, and agree.

I do believe that some here....want to "keep on track" a push into or against or exposing Scien.....as a separate thrust....to accomplish the end goal...of alerting the most public to the Cult...and its evil.

In that vein....threads are started ...and there is a desire to protect that thrust.

Kinda, "all shoulders to the wheel" make the work easier kinda thing.....

I understand this purpose.

Just my 2 cents.

:)

It does bother me....trying to sort out the various factions here....and some of the various takes on the dreck.....on the other hand.
 
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Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
That "piece of work," to whom you refer, befriended Paulette Cooper over 40 years ago, and I doubt if Paulette shares your harsh assessment of her.


Yes, she settled down and raised a beautiful family.


The old men of the O.T.O. didn't like Sara, who was seen as a disruptive influence. She was a free spirit.

Sara wasn't even a teenager when her sister married Jack Parsons, and barely 16 when she was invited to join the O.T.O. Sara passed away in 1997 and her personal spiritual views, Udarnik, are none of your business.

Sorry, Udarnik, but I just find your language and your tone offensive.


_________​


Old timer John Sanborn, who knew Sara in 1950 and 1951, explained during a 1986 interview:
"Sara was a lovely woman. She was intelligent. She was quite young. I suppose she was around 24, and Hubbard was around 40. She had an aristocratic look..."​


________​


Alva Rogers, who - along with other artists and bohemians - lived at Jack Parsons' large house, during the time Sara was there, had this to say in a 1960s fanzine:
"She was young, blonde, and very attractive, full of joie de vivre, thoughtful, humorous, generous."


But this thread is not about Sara, it's about Paulette Cooper and the Destructive Cult, and its cult leader, that decided to "manufacture enough threat" to "terminately handle" her, and it's about the great news :) that a book about her, and honoring her, is soon to be published. :happydance:


Well, Veda, I find your altitude offensive. Tough cookies, eh?

You do not get to tell people on this board what is a legitimate line of inquiry or not. You only get to determine what people can legitimately ask of you.

Let's get to my evidence for calling Sara Northrup a "piece of work":

In June 1941, at the age of seventeen, she began a passionate affair with Parsons while her sister Helen was away on vacation. She made a striking impression on the other lodgers at 1003 South Orange Avenue; George Pendle describes her as "feisty and untamed, proud and self-willed, she stood five foot nine, had a lithe body and blond hair, and was extremely candid – she often claimed to have lost her virginity at the age of ten." When Helen returned, she found Sara wearing Helen's own clothes and calling herself Parsons' "new wife." Not surprisingly this led to conflict, though such conduct was expressly permitted by the OTO, which followed Crowley's disdain of marriage as a "detestable institution" and accepted as commonplace the swapping of wives and partners between OTO members.[7]


Although both were committed OTO members, the reactions of Parsons and Helen towards Sara were markedly different. Parsons told Helen to her face that he preferred Sara sexually: "This is a fact that I can do nothing about. I am better suited to her temperamentally – we get on well. Your character is superior. You are a greater person. I doubt that she would face what you have with me – or support me as well."[8] Some years later, addressing himself as "You", Parsons told himself that his affair with Sara (whom he called Betty) marked a key step in his growth as a practitioner of magick: "Betty served to affect a transference from Helen at a critical period ... Your passion for Betty also gave you the magical force needed at the time, and the act of adultery tinged with incest, served as your magical confirmation in the law of Thelema."[8] Helen was far less sanguine, writing in her diary of "the sore spot I carried where my heart should be", and had furious – sometimes violent – rows with both Parsons and Sara. She began an affair with Wilfred Smith, Parsons' mentor in the OTO[8] and had a son in 1943 who bore Parsons' surname but who was almost certainly fathered by Smith.[8] Sara also became pregnant but had an (illegal) abortion on April 1, 1943, arranged by Parsons and carried out by Dr. Zachary Taylor Malaby, a prominent Pasadena doctor and Democratic politician.[9]


Sara's hostility towards other members of the OTO caused further tensions in the house, which were communicated by others back to Aleister Crowley in England. He dubbed her "the alley-cat" after an unnamed mutual acquaintance told him that Jack's attraction to her was like "a yellow pup bumming around with his snout glued to the rump of an alley-cat." Concluding that she was a vampire, which he defined as "an elemental or demon in the form of a woman" who sought to "lure the Candidate to his destruction," he warned that Sara was a grave danger to Jack and to the "Great Work" which the OTO was carrying out in California.[10]


Similar concerns were expressed by other OTO members. The OTO's US head, Karl Germer, labeled her "an ordeal sent by the gods". Her disruptive behavior appalled Fred Gwynn, a new OTO member living in the commune at 1003 South Orange Avenue: "Betty went to almost fantastical lengths to disrupt the meetings [of the OTO] that Jack did get together. If she could not break it up by making social engagements with key personnel she, and her gang, would go out to a bar and keep calling in asking for certain people to come to the telephone."[11]
Bolds are mine. And we haven't even gotten to the swindle she and Ron pulled on Parsons. Do you really think she didn't realize that boat scheme was an attempt to defraud?

Your evidence for her being an innocent free spirit is someone who was likely infatuated with her and a woman who also had a high opinion of Laffy at the time? Really?

So that's why I phrased things in such a way as to see if she woke up or not. She was seventeen when she fucked her sister's husband, and I know a lot of messed up teens, but that's pretty messed up by anyone's standards. I realize she was sexually abused as a child, and I unfortunately know from personal experience with a variety of people close to me how that can fuck up someone's sense of right and wrong. That being said, AFAIK, none of the abuse survivors in my circle of friends has ever engaged in adultery tinged with incest.

Her reputation at the OTO does not look like a bunch of old men jealous of Jack's young fling, it looks like people fed up with really juvenile behavior from ... a real piece of work.

Now, could she have outgrown that? Sure, people can change for the better, especially when the get free of an abusive situation. But in that immediate period where she runs off with Laffy, she doesn't look like such a victim, does she? It's only a year or two later, when Laffy goes really batshit on her, that she becomes a victim.

I really hope she did grow up. But it's interesting to think about the parallels of the OTO and the Co$, and to wonder what her journey out - if there was one - I mean, we have no evidence one way or another that she ever gave up magik - has any illustrative value for those trying to escape the mental clutches of Co$ training. She's a public enough figure to have a Wikipedia page for fuck's sake - so yes, it is anyone's business who is interested in this little patch of sordid history what her personal beliefs were. It's her and her heir's business if they want to keep that private, but that does not make inquiries into that area illegitimate or out of bounds.

You are quick to jump to conclusions about her relationship with Paulette Cooper. AFAIK, the two never met, and Paulette has said that she found this letter a little mystifying, given how little contact they had. That's not really 'befriending", is it?

Hell, I'm curious about your motives for being so quick to take offense. Other than the fact that I don't hold you in the proper amount of awe, that is.
 
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Leland

Crusader
Well, Veda, I find your altitude offensive. Tough cookies, eh?

You do not get to tell people on this board what is a legitimate line of inquiry or not. You only get to determine what people can legitimately ask of you.

Let's get to my evidence for calling Sara Northrup a "piece of work":


Bolds are mine. And we haven't even gotten to the swindle she and Ron pulled on Parsons. Do you really think she didn't realize that boat scheme was an attempt to defraud?

Your evidence for her being an innocent free spirit is someone who was likely infatuated with her and a woman who also had a high opinion of Laffy at the time? Really?

So that's why I phrased things in such a way as to see if she woke up or not. She was seventeen when she fucked her sister's husband, and I know a lot of messed up teens, but that's pretty messed up by anyone's standards. I realize she was sexually abused as a child, and I unfortunately know from personal experience with a variety of people close to me how that can fuck up someone's sense of right and wrong. That being said, AFAIK, none of the abuse survivors in my circle of friends has ever engaged in adultery tinged with incest.

Her reputation at the OTO does not look like a bunch of old men jealous of Jack's young fling, it looks like people fed up with really juvenile behavior from ... a real piece of work.

Now, could she have outgrown that? Sure, people can change for the better, especially when the get free of an abusive situation. But in that immediate period where she runs off with Laffy, she doesn't look like such a victim, does she? It's only a year or two later, when Laffy goes really batshit on her, that she becomes a victim.

I really hope she did grow up. But it's interesting to think about the parallels of the OTO and the Co$, and to wonder what her journey out - if there was one - I mean, we have no evidence one way or another that she ever gave up magik - has any illustrative value for those trying to escape the mental clutches of Co$ training. She's a public enough figure to have a Wikipedia page for fuck's sake - so yes, it is anyone's business who is interested in this little patch of sordid history what her personal beliefs were. It's her and her heir's business if they want to keep that private, but that does not make inquiries into that area illegitimate or out of bounds.

You are quick to jump to conclusions about her relationship with Paulette Cooper. AFAIK, the two never met, and Paulette has said that she found this letter a little mystifying, given how little contact they had. That's not really 'befriending", is it?

Hell, I'm curious about your motives for being so quick to take offense. Other than the fact that I don't hold you in the proper amount of awe, that is.

Ha....I can see now why La Fatty had the hots for her. So Funny.....his sexual attraction to Sara. Sounds like HubTub bit off more than he could chew.....
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Ha....I can see now why La Fatty had the hots for her. So Funny.....his sexual attraction to Sara. Sounds like HubTub bit off more than he could chew.....

I think they both got a little more than they bargained for in that relationship. I can see a young kid growing up in a hurry once she had a kid of her own, and ditching all the shit she had done as an immature adolescent. On the other hand, this stuff sticks in the mind a long time (OTO and the like, I mean), once it's wormed its way into the psyche. She's a fascinating person, and if not the complete victim she's often made out to be, that makes her even more interesting.

I'll dump the stuff on Alan Walter on this thread tomorrow - a lot of external to ESMB quoting needed for that one.
 

Leland

Crusader
Udarnik, you'd have to had seen a Cult training film about the tone scale.....and a portion of said film, with a woman writhing over a man....and the man standing stone cold still....as he ignores the woman's wiles.

Upon reading your description of her...that memory popped up....

Quite funny,

In the Cult.....one is suppose to keep one's TRs IN.....and not react to such a thing as an attractive woman....or her allurements.

So sad.

So....FLUNK!! La Fatty!!

LOL
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Hmmmmmm......thinking about the OP some more Udarnik. So you befriended an old Nazi who knew Hitler. Then not too many years later you go to the Soviet Union to live. :unsure:

Yes. It's becoming more evident that Roger is right. You are a highly trained agent who is here on ESMB with an agenda being directed from an outside source!

:omg:


So tell me....are you an assassin? Or are you an errand boy sent by grocery clerks to collect a bill?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqjQG-Tw9FY
 

Lone Star

Crusader
......BTW, some of us happen to think that adultery tinged with incest is kinda hot. :coolwink:

Excuse me......oh.......my Dad's third wife is at the door and she's in the mood to be naughty!!

It's okay. She's younger than me.

Gotta go.....
 
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Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
When I was roughly 12 - 14 years old, I was really, really into WWII history. Actually, I was into it for far longer than that, but in this period my father and I met an art dealer, who was in Alexandria, Virginia at the time. She dealt almost exclusively in paintings of aerial combat from WWII. Many of those paintings were signed, not only by the artist, but by the aces depicted therein. I was fascinated to find a couple of paintings with the signatures of Erich Hartmann and Adolf Galland. And then she dropped the bombshell - Galland himself often came to her gallery.

Thus I managed to meet on several occasions, and briefly correspond with, a man whom Hitler had personally decorated. Galland was a likable guy. He was affable, self-effacing, and always ready to talk about aviation in the Second World War.

Later I learned he had been involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler, and had not been shot mostly because of his propaganda value. He was sent to command a Me 262 unit - not a usual command for a fighter pilot general - in the hopes those fickle machines would kill him. When he failed to die in those jets, he took his entire command to Austria to evade capture by the Russians, giving the US a valuable asset from Germany's arsenal.

This was my first foray into the world of morals in the shade of gray. I genuinely liked Galland. He made at least one huge friendly gesture to the US in the war, and he had soured on Hitler and tried to get him killed.

But.

Where was his outrage when Poland took the hit in 1939? He served Hitler well enough to become his youngest general. Was he one of the Good Guys, or not?

I think, on the whole, not. Did he redeem himself? In my eyes, yes. But I could very well see the point of view of people who look at all of his actions at the end of the war and afterwards as serving multiple stakeholders, not least of which was .... Adolf Galland. I liked they guy. But I can see the perspective of someone who thinks he should have been hanged at Nuremberg.

And thus we come to the point of this thread.

There are people whose names seem to generate a fair amount of awe and respect on the boards. Some of that respect appears to be earned, in many cases. However, there also appears to be a reluctance to examine the full history and the actions of these people. Some of that, in the case of living posters, may be the result of an unspoken truce. The feuds between some of the critics do nothing except embolden the Co$. On the other hand, there are some legitimate beefs. I, myself am pretty leery of M&M until they come completely clean - as are a lot of folks.

The funny thing I've observed, though, is certain people - especially those who have contributed to the informal history of the beginnings of the church - get a pass on their behavior. This would include, to my mind, Alan Walter, the Pilot and David Mayo. Now it looks as if this also includes Sara Northrup. Interesting...

This, to an outsider, looks like Laffy's Kha Khan doctrine still in action. Mostly, these are people who suffered mightily at the hands of Laffy, but like Galland, not all of their behavior is pristine. It's perfectly legitimate to come to the defense of an old friend, but when that old friend has a lot of public, dirty laundry hanging out there, don't expect outsiders - or even all insiders - to bow to a desire to ignore the bad and praise the good. All humans are a mixture of bad and good, and we do them a disservice to put them on a pedestal when we are assessing their historical impact.

Those of us who think the tech is dangerous in all its forms aren't going to cotton to anyone preaching it.

I'll repost some posts from other threads, and have at it.

There's a grey area or fine line between discussing the subject(s) while candidly stating what one's own choices are and recommending that choice.

Anyone who does the latter also does the former. Not everyone who does the former is doing the latter.

Be candid and speak freely about your stance, but know the difference.
 

DeeAnna

Patron Meritorious
This http://www.xenu.net/archive/FBI/fbi-110.html is a long, rambling letter LRH wrote to the U.S. Attorney General in May of 1951. In it, he accuses Sara Northrup of being a Communist or being under the influence of Communists.

It is interesting reading. Interesting to see LRH "reframing" his entire relationship with Sara. Oh, and he refers to the Jack Parson's home as a "free love community". Heh, heh. Yeah, Ron, we've read about the rather wide swath you were cutting through the free love community. As opposed to being home with your wife and two children.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
.....

This is what happens to my mind when I even think about Sara Northrup and whatever was going on with Hubbard and OTO in those days...it's not good. lol


From one of those random websites you see, blink, think WTF and quickly exit:


“L. Ron Hubbard learned a great deal about life from an Antarean woman named SCARABINE who was with us on the ship and landed with us in Roswell, New Mexico. She lived in Los Angeles and Mr. Hubbard befriended her in 1948; having met her through a woman named Sarah Northrup who Mr. Hubbard later married. Mr. Hubbard learned a great deal about telepathy and moving out of the body, and there is a lot of useful and very practical Antarean knowledge within his writings which he repackaged as a religion known as Scientology which was first known as a science of the mind called Dianetics.Mr. Hubbard fully understood that the soul or spiritual entity operates the genetic body. He easily grasped Antarean wisdom.”[22]The information was posted September 23, 2009 on the Forum Project Avalon by an elderly Antarean named Lucy or LEUCEDENDRA.[23] How old she was is unknown?It is interesting that LEUCEDENDRA appeared not soon after it was widely reported that Minister Louis Farrakhan and ILLUMINATI Negro Rev. Al Sharpton had been Scientology-DIANETIC [CIA-MK ULTRED] auitored.[24]LEUCEDENDRA claims that she came to earth at Roswell July 4th, 1947. Interestingly a side note to Lucy, she claims that the Antareans demand the people of Earth denounce JESUIT CHRIST.[25]
She claims that her husband Hyaluronidon built the Georgia Guidestones, an alien monument in a small park which calls for the death of 6,200,000,000 people in the world because only 500,000,000 “eligibles” [clears] are allowed to inherit the earth.[26] She appears to have a large following in New Zealand.[27] Her website at www.betweendeath.com is gone-taken down. As suddenly as she appeared, LEUCEDENDRA disappeared.
The ship she refers to above that carried her, LRH and SCARABINE to Roswell has to be one of the maiden’s VRIL FLYING DISKS. Lucy’s background information on LRH, Antareans and America’s Top Secret VRIL flying machine projectappears to be too extremely sensitive, compartmented and classified to be fairly tales, totally made up and false.LRH befriended SCARABINE in 1948 is extremely significant. It is within (3) years of the VRIL SOCIETY MAIDENS sudden disappearance out of Nazi Germany. It is highly likely that SCARABINE had been recruited by ONI as an asset shortly after being secreted out of Nazi Germany before its fall.She most likely was officially debriefed sometime in 1945 by ONI Nazi Occult Expert, LRH. LRH’s contact with the VRIL SOCIETY MAIDEN would have predated the secret blood oath covenant of the CIA. The CIA wasn’t formed until 1947.LEUCEDENDRA reveals that SCARABINE had been introduced or re-introduced to LRH through Sara Northrup, one of BEAST 666’s female magicians out of Weird Jack’s O.T.O Temple. Aleister Crowley’s O.T.O would have been an idea place for the SS and CIA to harbor the maidens. It had a strict blood covenant code of secrecy. It was Satanic. It had secret vast covert elite powerful resources and influences that spanned the planet. It was a place that the maidens would continue to practice the occult, teach, train and recruit initiates like Sara Northrup in relative blood oath secrecy.LEUCEDENDRA reveals that SCARABINE travelled with LRH and Sara Northrup to Roswell, New Mexico. Rosweill was the infamous UFO crash site.The Roswell UFO Incident was a report of an object that crashed in the general vicinity of Roswell in June or July 1947, allegedly, an extra-terrestrial spacecraft and its alien occupants.[28]Now, the Roswell UFO Incident is generally believed to have been an ONI and U.S. Air Force failed secret experimental Stargate Technology UFO flight crash.[29]Reportedly, SS Wernher von Braun and Project PAPERCLIP Nazi VRIL scientists were at the Roswell UFO crash site.[30] Why wouldn’t Maria or Sigrun, and even both be flown also to the Roswell UFO crash site with an official debriefing occult expert like ONI’s LRH? Again, the Roswell Incident was before the official formation of the CIA when the Gehlen-Bolschwing SS took over.LEUCEDENDRA, LRH, Sara and SCARABINE’s trip to Rowell appears to be very consistent with being at the heart of U.S. government secret experimentation with the Forces of VRIL developed by the VRIL SOCIETY MAIDENS from Antarean wisdom just before the official formation of the CIA.Would SCARABINE and LEUCEDENDRA have been VRIL SOCIETY MAIDENS- Maria Orsicand Sigrun under ONI and the U.S. Air Force’s Project PAPERCLIP?
LRH’s O.T.O. wife Sara Elizabeth Bruce Northrup Hollister also played a significant role in the development of DIANETICS, Hubbard’s “modern science of mental health”, between 1948 and 1951, during which time she was LRH’s personal auditor and one of the seven members of the Dianetics Foundation’s Board of Directors.[31]In 1939, Weird Jack Parsons and wife Helen Crowley-Northrup, Sara’s sister, joined the Pasadena branch of the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO). When Parsons’ father died, the couple moved into his old home at 1003 South Orange Avenue, Pasadena, with sixteen-year-old Sara moving in with them while she finished high school. [32]Sara joined OTO in 1941. She was given the title of Soror [Sister] Cassap. She rose to the rank of a second degree member, or “Magician”, of the OTO. In June 1941, at the age of seventeen, she began a passionate affair with Weird Jack while her sister Helen was away on vacation. [33]In 1948, LRH told his friend Forrest J. Ackerman that he had acquired a Dictaphone machine which Sara was “beating out her wits on” transcribing not only fiction but his book on the “cause and cure of nervous tension”. This eventually became the first draft of Hubbard’s book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, which marked the foundation of Dianetics and ultimately of Scientology.[34]
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Thanks HH. After reading the above about SCARABINE and the Antareans I now have pneumonia. Thaaaaaaaaanks!

A little heads up woulda been nice!

Lol....
 
Well, Veda, I find your altitude offensive. Tough cookies, eh?

You do not get to tell people on this board what is a legitimate line of inquiry or not. You only get to determine what people can legitimately ask of you.

Let's get to my evidence for calling Sara Northrup a "piece of work":


Bolds are mine. And we haven't even gotten to the swindle she and Ron pulled on Parsons. Do you really think she didn't realize that boat scheme was an attempt to defraud?

Your evidence for her being an innocent free spirit is someone who was likely infatuated with her and a woman who also had a high opinion of Laffy at the time? Really?

So that's why I phrased things in such a way as to see if she woke up or not. She was seventeen when she fucked her sister's husband, and I know a lot of messed up teens, but that's pretty messed up by anyone's standards. I realize she was sexually abused as a child, and I unfortunately know from personal experience with a variety of people close to me how that can fuck up someone's sense of right and wrong. That being said, AFAIK, none of the abuse survivors in my circle of friends has ever engaged in adultery tinged with incest.

Her reputation at the OTO does not look like a bunch of old men jealous of Jack's young fling, it looks like people fed up with really juvenile behavior from ... a real piece of work.

Now, could she have outgrown that? Sure, people can change for the better, especially when the get free of an abusive situation. But in that immediate period where she runs off with Laffy, she doesn't look like such a victim, does she? It's only a year or two later, when Laffy goes really batshit on her, that she becomes a victim.

I really hope she did grow up. But it's interesting to think about the parallels of the OTO and the Co$, and to wonder what her journey out - if there was one - I mean, we have no evidence one way or another that she ever gave up magik - has any illustrative value for those trying to escape the mental clutches of Co$ training. She's a public enough figure to have a Wikipedia page for fuck's sake - so yes, it is anyone's business who is interested in this little patch of sordid history what her personal beliefs were. It's her and her heir's business if they want to keep that private, but that does not make inquiries into that area illegitimate or out of bounds.

You are quick to jump to conclusions about her relationship with Paulette Cooper. AFAIK, the two never met, and Paulette has said that she found this letter a little mystifying, given how little contact they had. That's not really 'befriending", is it?

Hell, I'm curious about your motives for being so quick to take offense. Other than the fact that I don't hold you in the proper amount of awe, that is.

Enquiries might be legitimate, however I do think you are too worked up about her "bad" character as presented so far. You remind me of guys who get all worked up when they see a female with sexual freedom, promiscuity, having fun - whatever term you want to use. A lot of guys just don't like that and will call such a female the well known put down words "s_ _ _ _" "w_ _ _ _" etc. Hypocritical guys who just can't stand to see a woman getting what they want. "Piece of work" seriously? Well, she could have been, I don't know, but she was living with bohemians - more bohemian than most probably with their majick etc. The sexual mores of the group were extremely loose. Reminds me of the sexual revolution, hippies, love ins, etc. She was 17!!!!!!! With guys who were older than her who were all "pieces of work" in their own ways too. Blame the (sexually active woman)?
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Let's get to my evidence for calling Sara Northrup a "piece of work":

I am posting the below information to give some perspective on her age and upbringing. I would have to say that from it, one could conclude that she did had an unstable and unnuturing upbringing in her adolescent and teen years ( maybe even earlier?). I suspect that this venture into the the world of the OTO environment at such a young age ( 15 living with sister and Parsons), this unknown territory of the spirits and sexual permissiveness, could very well have messed her up enough to set things in motion for the next 10 years of her life.

Sara Northrup Hollister
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sara Elizabeth Bruce Northrup Hollister (April 8, 1924 – December 19, 1997)[1] was the second wife of L. Ron Hubbard, from 1946 to 1951, and wife of Miles Hollister from 1951 to her death in 1997.[2] She had one daughter, Alexis Valerie, fathered by Hubbard in 1948.

Sara Northrup was a major figure in the Pasadena branch of the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO), a society founded by the English occultist Aleister Crowley. From 1941 to 1945 she had a turbulent relationship with John Whiteside Parsons, the head of the Pasadena OTO, who was married to her sister Helen. Although she was a committed member of the OTO, to whom she was known as "Soror [Sister] Cassap", she acquired a reputation for disruptiveness that prompted Crowley to denounce her as a "vampire".

She began a relationship with L. Ron Hubbard, whom she met through the OTO, in 1945. It led to the couple eloping with a substantial amount of Parsons' life savings and marrying bigamously a year later while Hubbard was still married to his first wife Margaret Grubb.

Early life

She was one of five children born to Olga Nelson, the daughter of a Swedish immigrant to the United States. Her older sister Helen and two other sisters were fathered by Thomas Cowley, an Englishman working for the Standard Oil Company in Chicago, Illinois. After he died in 1920, her mother married Burton Northrup, a traveling salesman, and gave birth to Sara and another sister, Nancy. In 1923 the family moved to Pasadena, a destination said to have been chosen by Olga using a Oujia board.[3] Although she later remembered her childhood with warmth, Sara's upbringing was marred by her sexually abusive father, who was imprisoned in 1928 for financial fraud.[4] In 1933, at the age of 22, her sister Helen met the 18-year-old Jack Parsons, a brilliant chemist who went on to be a noted rocket scientist and an avid student and practitioner of the occult. They were engaged in July 1934[5] and married in April 1935.[3]
Relationship with Jack Parsons

Parsons' interest in the occult led in 1939 to him and Helen joining the Pasadena branch of the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO). When Parsons' father died, the couple moved into his old home at 1003 South Orange Avenue, Pasadena, with the sixteen-year-old Sara moving in with them while she finished high school. Sara also joined the OTO in 1941, at Parsons' urging, and was given the title of Soror [Sister] Cassap.[2] She soon rose to the rank of a second degree member, or "Magician", of the OTO.[6]

In June 1941, at the age of seventeen, she began a passionate affair with Parsons while her sister Helen was away on vacation. She made a striking impression on the other lodgers at 1003 South Orange Avenue; George Pendle describes her as "feisty and untamed, proud and self-willed, she stood five foot nine, had a lithe body and blond hair, and was extremely candid – she often claimed to have lost her virginity at the age of ten." When Helen returned, she found Sara wearing Helen's own clothes and calling herself Parsons' "new wife." Not surprisingly this led to conflict, though such conduct was expressly permitted by the OTO, which followed Crowley's disdain of marriage as a "detestable institution" and accepted as commonplace the swapping of wives and partners between OTO members.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Northrup_Hollister

Sara was a kid on the loose, with a mother who obviously had other things on her mind and a brother-in-law who saw nothing wrong with taking advantage of Sara and her out-of-control independent spirit while the wife was away. Encouraging her and leading her into this bizarre world of the then OTO would be considered emotional child abuse in this day and age. We must keep in mind that at age 15-17, she was still a kid.

IMHO, by the time she had met Hubbard in 1945 at age 21, she had been an old hat at the OTO but as most of us recall, being 21 does not equate much in reality with being an adult. How many of us were suckered into Scientology in years up to even 25 and think we knew actually what the hell we were doing when we didn't? One could say that she was damaged goods by this time in 1941 but I suspect the damages happened much earlier, when she was ripe for OTO madness and Parson's manipulations.

That she eventually got away from the heart of it and began what would turn out to be a normal life with a loving husband and a child to raise says much about her. Just saying.. for perspective
 
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Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
You guys might like Unobstructed Universe, by Stewart Edward White

"Betty and I had first met Darby and Joan at the house of Margaret
Cameron,
* in 1922. With them, and Margaret, and another psychic, Mrs.
John Palmer Gavitt* we conducted the remarkable series of experiments in
demonstrating and verifying the "second body"--beta body, we called
it--described in an appendix to The Betty Book. In the next seventeen
years we had with Darby and Joan but two other contacts: once when Betty
went East without me, and once when they visited us at Burlingame for two
days. Nevertheless, in spite of so few meetings, and in spite of the fact
that Betty and Joan were doing diametrically opposite kinds of work by
different methods, the two of them had always "clicked." And they always
felt that, somehow or another, they were destined to do more good work
together. But they, no more than Darby or myself, realized how perfectly
they were being trained, each in her own way, to combine their methods in
one triumphant effort when the time came.

*Author of The Seven Purposes.

Margaret had red hair.
I have read some of Unobstructed Universe and put the book down.
I didn't know of her book Seven Purposes till I just looked for an online copy of Unobstructed Universe for this posting. It might be helpful if someone familiar with $cientology read them both.
 
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Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Enquiries might be legitimate, however I do think you are too worked up about her "bad" character as presented so far. You remind me of guys who get all worked up when they see a female with sexual freedom, promiscuity, having fun - whatever term you want to use. A lot of guys just don't like that and will call such a female the well known put down words "s_ _ _ _" "w_ _ _ _" etc. Hypocritical guys who just can't stand to see a woman getting what they want. "Piece of work" seriously? Well, she could have been, I don't know, but she was living with bohemians - more bohemian than most probably with their majick etc. The sexual mores of the group were extremely loose. Reminds me of the sexual revolution, hippies, love ins, etc. She was 17!!!!!!! With guys who were older than her who were all "pieces of work" in their own ways too. Blame the (sexually active woman)?

Dude, there is a huge difference between sexually active - even promiscuous - and stealing your sister's husband. While they may have been open to wife swapping, even her sister Helen thought that was swapping a little too close to home.

There's no hint of remorse on Sara's part, only hostility, while Parson's later justifications at least hint of some remorse on his part.

Then there is the actual behavior that led me to call her a piece of work - seeking to break up her boyfriend's circle of friends and then running off to defraud him with another guy. Slut shaming may be a hot button with you, but in this case, you're seeing it where there is none.
 
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Lone Star

Crusader
::
Dude, there is a huge difference between sexually active - even promiscuous - and stealing your sister's husband. While they may have been open to wife swapping, even her sister Helen thought that was swapping a little too close to home.

There's no hint of remorse on Sara's part, only hostility, while Parson's later justifications at least hint of some remorse on his part.

Then there is the actual behavior that led me to call her a piece of work - seeking to break up her boyfriend's circle of friends and then running off to defraud him with another guy. Slut shaming may be a hot button with you, but in this case, you're seeing it where there is none.

Not to mention eloping with Hubbard while he was married to another. Also helped him to steal money.

She was indeed a piece of work in the 40s at the least.

* Oh, you said that already. :duh:
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
I am posting the below information to give some perspective on her age and upbringing. I would have to say that from it, one could conclude that she did had an unstable and nuturing upbringing in her adolescent and teen years ( maybe even earlier?). I suspect that this venture into the the world of the OTO environment at such a young age ( 15 living with sister and Parsons), this unknown territory of the spirits and sexual permissiveness, could very well have messed her up enough to set things in motion for the next 10 years of her live.



Sara was a kid on the loose, with a mother who obviously had other things on her mind and a brother-in-law who saw nothing wrong with taking advantage of her Sara and her out-of-control independent spirit while the wife was away. Encouraging her and leading her into this bizarre world of the then OTO would be considered emotional child abuse in this day and age. We must keep in mind that at age 15-17, she was still a kid.

IMHO, by the time she had met Hubbard in 1945 at age 21, she had been an old hat at the OTO but as most of us recall, being 21 does not equate much in reality with being an adult. How many of us were suckered into Scientology in years up to even 25 and think we knew actually what the hell we were doing when we didn't? One could say that she was damaged goods by this time in 1941 but I suspect the damages happened much earlier, when she was ripe for OTO madness and Parson's manipulations.

That she eventually got away from the heart of it and began what would turn out to be a normal life with a loving husband and a child to raise says much about her. Just saying.. for perspective

I agree, and that's why it would be fascinating to see the development of her thinking on the OTO and related subjects as she matured. She likely dropped some or all of it. That doesn't mean that she doesn't look like the crazy destructive girlfriend / boyfriend we've all seen at various times in our friends' (or, God forbid, our own) lives - at the time in question. If you were Jack's friend in 1947, wouldn't you have wanted to slap him upside the head and tell him to get away from this chick?

I think the crucible of her ordeal with Laffy may have matured her and set her up to find happiness later in life. Wasn't it Napoleon who said that good things often look horrible while they are happening? I'll have to look it up, but that would be a typical self serving quote with a large kernel of truth from that man.
 
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